New Multithread Optimizations Coming in Patch 8.1 Tides of Vengeance

[Squishy Tia]

It's not broken, it's how the engine is designed, there is no getting around it.

It is currently broken (I guess I wasn't specific enough in that this pertains to the PTR that has half of the 8.1 optimizations working and the other half disabled on purpose because, well, they either don't work or crash the app outright).

That's why I'm saying that you have no idea what you're talking about. They are not making more cores available, they are optimizing CPU allocation when communicating with the GPU using DX12 framework. DX11 only allowed that thing to be controlled on driver level, and worked precisely how WoW used to work before: 1 core does it all. DX12 allows developers to customize CPU/GPU interaction, but WoW is not a professional application, there is no possibility to scale the whole workload across all cores, they can only offload certain less important calculations to other threads. What that means for the end user is that WoW is going to favor high per-thread performance and be unable to fully utilize modern GPUs.

I.e. it is still about single core, as the performance is still going to largely rely on a couple of fast threads.

Actually they will be enabling proper multicore usage. Not entirely on the first go-around, but down the line, yes. And more cores for the CPU side threads to work on means more headroom on any given core, evening out the load.

And that's not changing.

Yes, that is what's changing. That's the entire point of going multithreaded. They aren't simply doing GPU only multithreading, it's both sides. Only one side currently works on the PTR (and even with just that you're seeing pretty good gains for a first go at it).

So you're saying that a GPU that relies on CPU more that is going to have less CPU resources is going to have more benefit than a GPU that relies less on a CPU and is going to have less CPU resources? Ok.

It won't have less resources. Currently all of the threads are tied to a single core outside of audio. With multithreading they'll be distributed to other cores as well, meaning each core in use will have less overall stress on it and more headroom. You know, the entire point of going multithreaded in the first place. So yes, the GPUs that are currently bound by lack of CPU resources will get more. Again, you're still thinking entirely in single core IPC. Multithreaded bucks that. And yes, the CPU side is going to see more of a boost than the GPU side on either platform and from either vendor because DX12 multithreading is rather limited in what it can do on its own. CPUs can get more threads than the GPU can, but at least the GPU's threads won't be entirely CPU bound and have less bottlenecking going on.

[Guardian Bob]

I want to use my fx 8350 at it's full potential

You need to upgrade to fx 8370 like the rest of us.

[Hypasonic]

Sucks you need DX 12 for this, my GPU can only use DX 11 so guess I will have to look at getting a cheap DX 12 card in the future.

[Popikaify]

I have i5 4690 and gtx 1050,gained about 20-25 fps i would say,but im getting annoying screen freezes

[Thunderball]

Actually they will be enabling proper multicore usage. Not entirely on the first go-around, but down the line, yes. And more cores for the CPU side threads to work on means more headroom on any given core, evening out the load.

They CANNOT scale the main process workload across multiple cores. It's not possible with this game engine.

It won't have less resources. Currently all of the threads are tied to a single core outside of audio. With multithreading they'll be distributed to other cores as well, meaning each core in use will have less overall stress on it and more headroom. You know, the entire point of going multithreaded in the first place. So yes, the GPUs that are currently bound by lack of CPU resources will get more. Again, you're still thinking entirely in single core IPC. Multithreaded bucks that. And yes, the CPU side is going to see more of a boost than the GPU side on either platform and from either vendor because DX12 multithreading is rather limited in what it can do on its own. CPUs can get more threads than the GPU can, but at least the GPU's threads won't be entirely CPU bound and have less bottlenecking going on.

Again, they cant scale the main process workload across multiple cores, it's not possible due to limitations of the game engine.

[Sentynel]

wow, only 10 years.

Really want to see per core utilization with a relatively high end GPU at a lower resolution (1080p). Unsure if i can use the PTR without an active sub, anyone knows if possible?

I think PTR is accessible for frozen accounts too.

[Squishy Tia]

They CANNOT scale the main process workload across multiple cores. It's not possible with this game engine.

Again, they cant scale the main process workload across multiple cores, it's not possible due to limitations of the game engine.

And you seem to think they can't rework the game engine and that it's set in stone. Hint: It isn't. That's why so much of the rework is broken in the 8.1 client currently - they're still trying to make it work right. But go ahead and keep believing it can't be done.

[Thunderball]

And you seem to think they can't rework the game engine and that it's set in stone. Hint: It isn't. That's why so much of the rework is broken in the 8.1 client currently - they're still trying to make it work right. But go ahead and keep believing it can't be done.

They can. With WoW 2.

[Tehterokkar]

They CANNOT scale the main process workload across multiple cores. It's not possible with this game engine.



Again, they cant scale the main process workload across multiple cores, it's not possible due to limitations of the game engine.

That is the entire point and sales pitch of DX12; multi-core scalability.

While it is not as simple as flipping a switch to implement this, Blizzard has done it to a degree thanks to the fairly open resource management that DX12 offers over previous DX versions where resources were heavily locked(particularly MMOs had issues with this due to the way they handle data).

If you can get 10 or up-to 25 FPS from a simple tick-box in 8.1 just because you have a quad-core CPU and Win10, that is fucking bonkers.

[Saphyron]

I want to see screenshots of CPU utilization in Task Manager.

[Erous]

I built my rig ~5 years ago with a 5820k on the precedence it would be a long time machine. This change to the game is such a huge win for anyone with high cores/threads.

[Squishy Tia]

I can't get the changes to the WTF file to stick. Whenever I launch the game it edits them out, and I assume it results in the same old, same old. 39% GPU utilization in Suramar, 54 fps, 10/10, hardly something to write home about.

SET gxMTPrepass "1"
SET gxMTOpaque "1"
SET gxMTDisable "0"
SET gxMTBeginDraw "1"
SET gxMTShadow "1"

These should be the changes. Even tried to make the file read-only but it doesn't work. Am I missing something?

As I noted earlier in my posts, about half of the new multithreading (mostly on the GPU side) is broken at the moment in the 8.1 PTR client. It's disabled internally and cannot be enabled without crashing the game outright. Give it time - these changes don't exactly happen with the snap of fingers.

[Deleted]

It's only taken them 10 years. Thank god, if there is one.

Ill slag bliz when they fuck up more than most on here, and, while I'd like more details, this is actually way more impressive than you (obviously think)

[potis]

Meanwhile a mid-end 1070ti is not even used at 50% and the CPU was barely used 18% overall. There's a HUGE amount of wasted resources still, and if this remains the case, raiding will still suck, 5 fps won't help you much. This game should run at 144 fps with ease on a 1080ti.

Silly sentences like these is the problem.

WoW is very specific as to what it wants, it has been explained 50000 times on here so i aint gonna repeat the retarded comment about GPU and usage.

5 FPS is a lot actually, and you are using retarded settings, no self-respecting raider plays on 10/10, there is also a reason why every e-sports game is played on INSANELY LOW and similar staff.

Either way, repeating the threads, its the first step, stop complaining.

[Squishy Tia]

Thought so, but how did wowhead get them to work on a pretty similar platform? They had 8700K+1070, I have 8700k+1070ti. I was wondering if there's some trick.

They work intermittently, or more accurately, outside of certain circumstances. Being a work in progress (this is super preliminary beta-status code here) it's likely to work for some, but not others. It may be the combination you're trying as well. Some of the commands don't get along with others just yet without some in-game issues cropping up. But that's what the PTR is for - to test those configurations. So don't give up!

No, comments like YOURS are the problem. It's not EVEN 60 FPS!!!

How can you cry about settings? You want me to use 7/10? On 8700K? 1070ti? You think I paid money to have games at 50 fps?

You realize it will run at the same FPS on a 2080ti???

Fortnite and other esports titles run at above hundred fps with ease MAXED. WoW, oooppppps, 60 would be fine?

What's the point of testing at 1/10 again? I understand PLAYING at 1/10, I did that myself in raids, CAUSE THEY RUN SO BAD. if they ran better, we'd be able to play maxed, which is the goal.

Such insane commentary, really makes me question who am I responding to. Same old types that defend all the Blizzard failures for YEARS, that's who.

Old raids you could get away with closer to 10/10. BfA raids, you can't. The art team over-rendered the new zones and used way too many triangles/polygons. Makes it look pretty, but as you've noticed, even on killer rigs the FPS in certain zones drops to just barely double digits. For BfA raids, you need to lower those settings. There's just no two ways about it. It'll get better once the multithreading is polished and ready for primetime, but even then don't expect 10/10 in raids to yield good FPS. It isn't an engine limitation this time, it's overkill rendering.

[Kagthul]

And you seem to think they can't rework the game engine and that it's set in stone. Hint: It isn't. That's why so much of the rework is broken in the 8.1 client currently - they're still trying to make it work right. But go ahead and keep believing it can't be done.

....

Until they invent time travel, large portions of the engine MUST run serially. This has nothing to do with age of the engine, it has EVERYTHING to do with the kind of game WoW is (and other MMOs, ALL of which have the same CPU bottleneck issues).

[Lucetia]

To all the people running these tests is it base UI or with all your usual addons and flair loaded? Reason being is I'm hearing the LUA side of things is still tied to the primary core and doesn't spread to the others for optimization which means the base UI, combat logs, addons, etc still run off that primary core and won't be as useful as people think.

[Kagthul]

No, comments like YOURS are the problem. It's not EVEN 60 FPS!!!

How can you cry about settings? You want me to use 7/10? On 8700K? 1070ti? You think I paid money to have games at 50 fps?

I dont really care what you think you paid for. The reality of the real world is that the instructions MUST be processed serially. A 9ghz CPU wouldn't fix it.

You realize it will run at the same FPS on a 2080ti???

Yes, because ALL of the GPU dependent settings in WoW can be handled at max by a GTX 1060.

Fortnite and other esports titles run at above hundred fps with ease MAXED. WoW, oooppppps, 60 would be fine?

You're comparing apples to cinderblocks. The only thing the two styles of games and game engines have in common is that they run on computers. Nothing in Fortnite has to be run serially. Almost all of the stuff on your screen is handled by predictive algorithms on YOUR computer, and is only updated/corrected once or twice a second from the server. EVERYTHING in WoW (and any other secure client-server game) has to wait for information from the server. Predictive algorithms are NEVER used. Thats why every MMO has the exact same issues, though they mitigate them in different ways (FF14 uses insanely small parties and shards of zones; ESO uses VERY agressive sharding, as does Guild Wars 2; enter the one place that GW2 cant do sharding (RvRvR)? Fuckin slideshow.). Even PUBG has the same issues (wander around the starting area for a while with all 100 people in the game. Its a slideshow on the best hardware in the world).

What's the point of testing at 1/10 again? I understand PLAYING at 1/10, I did that myself in raids, CAUSE THEY RUN SO BAD. if they ran better, we'd be able to play maxed, which is the goal.

Such insane commentary, really makes me question who am I responding to. Same old types that defend all the Blizzard failures for YEARS, that's who.

Its not a failure on Blizzard's part, unless you're blaming them for being unable to parse out time travel and how to do calculations that MUST be done in order out of order somehow.

Holy fuck, the number of people in this thread who have NO CLUE why WoW performs the way it does is staggering.

[Kagthul]

I think I should rephrase the issue:

- why should Average Joe consumer that spend good money on a good PC anything less from WoW than from a F2P title like Fortnite?

Look. I know VERY WELL it's not the best comparison. Lots of NPCs, lots of draw calls, old engine. yet there are games, AC:Origins (and Odyssey I assume, which I don't own) comes to mind: the cities are vast, they are extremely populated, and there are plenty of draw calls.

That are all handled entirely on your computer and are not waiting on information from the main thread which is bound to the server. Herpaderpderp.

But even with the now old Anvil Dx11 engine, Origins will ramp up utilization to 100% (at times) on my 8700K so it keeps the 1070ti fed, and mostly succeeds - it rarely drops below 97-99% utilization.

And yes, that is Ultra High settings.

So why should a CUSTOMER accept less from the biggest MMO in the world?

Because its the nature of the style of game it is. You go ahead and find me that elusive MMO that hits 100fps in heavily populated situations. Dont worry, ill wait.

it makes no sense whatsoever.

It makes plenty of sense if you understand that the calculation of A+B = C must be done before C+D = E. You cant split operation 1 and 2 up to different cores, because operation 2 requires the answer of operation 1. It's not a particularly diffifcult concept to understand, except for you, i guess.

Blizzard should be harshly punished for their indifference to how the engine works and their FAKE Recommended specs, which are a damn lie.

It's just such an insanity that we still see people defending them over this particular subject, always try to reexplain why WoW runs badly, as if we don't know already. Not explanations are needed, what's needed is seeing that GPU utilization rise to 90%+ and all CPU cores utilized as it is required.

So, "what is required" is a technological and scientifically impossible advancement. Yeah, that's likely.

Also, should I remind people that the 10/10 settings are with us since Legion launched? They aren't some experimental, revolutionary new settings made for "next gen". We are already on next-next-next gen - and they still suck. What did Blizz expect? CPUs running at 7GHz in 2018?

No, they put those in for people who dont mind the frame loss for the better fidelity. Which they said straight up when they put them in.

When we were already engaged on a core number race for years? And Intel could barely rise the speed of the CPUs after Sandy Bridge? The best CPU for WoW during that 2016 era was 4790K-->6700k or something. they weren't huge improvements over previous generations, and new gen 7700k, 8700k and now 9900K (FU Intel for lack of HT on i7 and prices) are still fooling around the 5GHz mark with "normal" air or AIO cooling.

I just don't know what Blizz were and are thinking. it's utterly ridiculous.

Theyre thinking that they have to obey the laws of temporal mechanics and physics, most likely.

And non-defensible too.

Yeah, well agree that you're an idiot about that.

It would probably help if you learned the simplest fucking thing about programming. Just sayin.

You really don't know what serial means? A 9GHz Intel would be almost twice as fast for WoW.

No, it wouldn't. Law of diminishing returns. Thats why you dont see a 25% improvement in framerates going from 4ghz to 5. Basic understanding of computer hardware wouldn't hurt you. Maybe take a class or something.

Rest of your arguments are even worse. there are simply no modern MMOs. PUBG? Dear lord.

The rest of my arguments are programming truths. And "There are no modern MMOs"? What the fuck are you on about?

WoW has these issues regardless of multiplayer scenarios. It has these issues even if you were to make a private server and be all alone. All it takes is a dumb zone like Suramar with lots of drawcalls.

Yeah, and try to follow along here.... because it has to wait on the Server to get the phase-state of the zone, and therefore has to wait on all those draw calls just like everything else.

But let's assume for a moment you are right.

Dont need to assume. Its been talked to death here, with the people who post here who are actual professional programmers chiming in. I know im right.

Why should WE care that Blizz are too dumb to create a better engine?

.... how fucking stupid are you? They cant break the laws of physics, son. It has nothing to do with creating a "better engine". To be a "better engine" it would have to break the laws of physics. It would have to be able to do calculations that require the answer to prior calculations without having the answers from those prior calculations.

The game should run as good as others, NO, actually better, cause it looks like shit in comparison.

Thats not how programming works. Draw calls are draw calls, regardless of how complex. It could be a square box. Doesn't matter. The GPU dependent portion is how detailed it is. And it doesnt "look like shit"... it looks like Warcraft. Which is a specific art aesthetic, and it has maintained better than any of its competitors with "better" graphics - which age badly and look horrible just a few years later.

Not our fault their devs are lazy and bad.

Not their fault you cant understand the underlying issue.

You don't care, why would you assume I do? I care for myself. You buy a good PC that runs 99% of the games at 60 fps+. WoW is doing far worse. Conclusion is simple:

WoW has to improve. Don't care how.

The problem is what you want is literally impossible. So get used to being dissapointed or quit. Those are your options.

Infracted for flaming - Cilraaz

[Deleted]

I'm not impressed.

They've been tacking on better and better graphics, lightning, shadows etc as every expansion launches.

But they've not once improved the performance or how WoW utilizes modern hardware.



Has everyone so quickly forgotten how Suramar and Valsharah ran at like 30FPS on a 980ti and equivalent CPU?


This has been a long time coming. So much so that my reaction is just.... "Finally?".

I agree with you on all of what you say, but trying to even separate out processes that can be threaded in such a dated engine would be a pretty daunting task for any group of engine programmers. Just imagine what a hideous mess their code base will be in by now.