Saurfang is an SI:7/Alliance asset

[Combatbutler]

The idea has been there since alpha, the only difference it seems that instead of being a willful participant, as it was hinted originally. Saurfang just seems to be an oblivious pawn on the chess board shaw decided to use.

[Feanoro]

That's very likely what happened. Saurfang knows the Alliance helped him escape, and more than likely doesn't care about their reasonings. He's on the lookout for Horde assassins because he has little reason to fear Alliance onces given that they just helped him escape. That doesn't mean he will do what Anduin wants him to do.

And if people have a problem with a Horde character getting help from the Alliance in order to achieve their goals, they can hang Sylvanas from the nearest lamp post as she seemed to have no problem with the Alliance doing half the work of reclaiming her city for her including killing the traitorous Putress, or helping during the Siege of Orgrimmar. This blind tribalism is starting to be absurd.

"Starting" to be absurd?

I'm just waiting for the eventual twisting that anyone who has fought Alliance is an Alliance agent. You know, they were in close contact and everything!

[Deleted]

What? Tyrande and the Night Elves going completely rogue and against Anduin's wishes and pulling their forces back from the Zuldazar war effort to take back Darkshore. And then Genn pledging, and then doing, the same thing immediately after.

I thought the symbolism was pretty obvious there. Unity vs Inner-conflict. In this moment, the two swap. The Horde coalesce around supporting one another after Rastakhan dies. Rokhan, Baine, and even Sylvanas (Completely uncharacteristically) agree to continue to support the Zandalari while the Alliance sees two of their factions abandon their war effort on the eve of its most important battle of the war to take back Darkshore.

And they lose (at least for now) Mekkatorque, the arguable smartest leader on either faction, and Jaina is seriously injured. That's not me saying the Alliance isn't winning in 8.1 btw, dont @Me with that. But just that its likely if the Gilneans and Night Elves were also there, the attack would have been even more effective.

Whereas before the Alliance has been fully united and the Horde fraying with Sylvanas' warmongering.

Where’s that big division and internal conflict in the Alliance? It's just some blablaing. Nothing that would change the Alliance at all. Tyrande went to Darkshore and get’s some new powers. How bad...! And what’s up with Greymane? Still loyal to Anduin. Also, I read somewhere the initial dialogue he had with Anduin was changed. Still, even if they don’t “participate” in the Siege of Zuldazar, Alliance wins with no important casulties at all. And this leads us to Mekkatorque... haha, Mekkatorque... less interesting and important Alliance racial leader who doesn’t even die... Horde looses Rastakhan (another leader after Cairne, Garrosh and Vol’jin), and the Alliance only gets Mekkatorque freezed and Jaina “wounded”... I mean, we all know they both are gonna come back. If not they would have propperly died.

And come on, Baine is looking for peace talks with the Alliance after Rastakhan dies... (lets say "dies" because we still don't know if the Alliance kills him, even if it looks likely), Saurfang ploting against Sylvanas and Horde PC having at the moment no option but to betray their Leader. For some of the Horde members, again. How’s that feelig more united? Nah, Alliance is winning in every front by far at the moment.

[Deleted]

Oh, Sylvanas puppets came. Can you remind me please, WHY THE FUCK Alliance is Horde's "worst enemy", except your headcanon? Deathwing or Legion, who wanted to literally destroy the world - are not and Alliance is? You're beyond deluded in your obsession of dead tits.

I don't like Slyvannas at all. I've wanted her gone since Cataclysm. And since the current Horde only exists because of the Allaince. It's worst and most recurring enemy.

Based on this she is preferable to Varok

[KrakHed]

So, how did Zekhan get to Redridge?

[frogger237]

Well that's his character destroyed. Where the honour in working for your worst enemy? Or is treason honourable now?

Shame Zappiboi has attached himself with this tratior.

When your leader kills and raises your own people and wants everything undead I think your worst enemy is your own leader if you are a living creature.

[KrakHed]

Because this is literally a faction expansion and WoW is based upon Orcs vs Humans?
Like what in the fuck?

No, he makes a good point. The Alliance is an extraordinarily kind and merciful enemy compared to everyone else. They hardly want to be enemies at all.

How could such people be anyone's worst enemy?

[Jastall]

This is even more tortured than the people trying to excuse this by likening it to Vol'jin. Sylvanas didn't accept Alliance help with Battle for UC, she just couldn't stop Varian from going in and when he did he declared war for what he saw not five minutes later, marking the one time the Alliance had a decent leader conductive to the faction conflict. As for Siege of Orgrimmar, she was opposing Garrosh anyway as part of the Darkspear Rebellion, she wasn't reliant on them to achieve her objective. Saurfang on the other hand is explicitly freed through Alliance machinations, making the Alliance complicit in whatever he does going forward. This, coupled with how the agents sent to capture/kill/disappear/whatever him are shown actual information proving this complicity and still don't just torch his hut and cap him in the head is what makes these circumstances incomparable.

Saurfang can't stop the Alliance from not helping him escape either. What's better, that he stays in his cage because that's what mommy Sylvanas would have wanted? He saw an opportunity and took it, but suddenly that makes him such a bad boy.

And the Horde was absolutely reliant on the Alliance in both situations, especially in SoO given that Tyrande smashed open the gates of Orgrimmar after the Juggernaut destroyed all the Horde's sieges engines. Assuming the Alliance version isn't in some way canon and they actually did most of the work.

What does Saurfang owe to the Alliance? They covertly helped him escape, yeah, and? Unless we get confirmation he made a deal with Anduin, that's hardly any sort of binding treaty signed in blood. He can easily decide to ignore that they did once he's back in the Horde.

[Kralljin]

Also, i love how pandaren are straight up reduced to joke apperances only.

Blizzards writing is just like a relative that doesn't know how to behave on funerals.

If they don't know how to do it, they start to make jokes.

[Verdugo]

So, how did Zekhan get to Redridge?

Same way Tyrande appears every time Malfurion is in danger. Plotstone. Its like heartstone but fucks over the plot.

[Melsiren]

Confused emote is right, since PC was on board with everything that happened until this.

Also, my PC picked up the blight spreader so your logic can fuck right off.

You know, between the amount of times we have been knocked out from head trauma, poisoned, strangled by ropes, chains or almost drowned.

Maybe over the years our brain has been reduced to putty and we're the world (Of warcrafts) most powerful and popular retard. We just do what ever the smart people tell us and don't think of the repercussions of our actions.

[Super Dickmann]

Saurfang can't stop the Alliance from not helping him escape either. What's better, that he stays in his cage because that's what mommy Sylvanas would have wanted? He saw an opportunity and took it, but suddenly that makes him such a bad boy.

And the Horde was absolutely reliant on the Alliance in both situations, especially in SoO given that Tyrande smashed open the gates of Orgrimmar after the Juggernaut destroyed all the Horde's sieges engines. Assuming the Alliance version isn't in some way canon and they actually did most of the work.

What does Saurfang owe to the Alliance? They covertly helped him escape, yeah, and? Unless we get confirmation he made a deal with Anduin, that's hardly any sort of binding treaty signed in blood. He can easily decide to ignore that they did once he's back in the Horde.

Gambling this on Saurfang not holding to his word is pretty sketchy ground in the first place. We don't know if Saurfang knows he was assisted or not, but we do know that by virtue of him being freed by the Alliance, if he does go on to return the Horde to noblesavagery and unseat Sylvanas, this'll be because the Alliance freed him. In other words, unlike even with Vol'jin, the Horde's return to whatever its true values are this week will be facilitated by the Alliance. Anduin is teaching us how to be honorable.

As for SoO, that's not on Sylvanas and Vol'jin had already begun his rebellion by that point. He already had a constituency and the races had their own motives and build-up to opposing Garrosh, unlike Saurfang being an unwitting pawn in sparking a civil war. The Horde was the one reestablishing what it means to be Horde, the Alliance were, up until the last five minutes, out to conquer a city and using the rebels as proxies. This is the conceit of 5.3 and even the title show as much "Conqueror of Orgrimmar" vs "Liberator of Orgrimmar" and the expectation that Varian will dismantle the Horde from Jaina.

[Gungnir]

No, he makes a good point. The Alliance is an extraordinarily kind and merciful enemy compared to everyone else. They hardly want to be enemies at all.

How could such people be anyone's worst enemy?

Gee I dunno, how could any group of people be the worst enemy to a different group of people holding the exact opposite ideals?
I have no idea and surely a couple of thousand years of human history has no such occurrences either.

[KrakHed]

Same way Tyrande appears every time Malfurion is in danger. Plotstone. Its like heartstone but fucks over the plot.

Either that, it it's explained in the book! Saurfang: Shadow of Honor!

- - - Updated - - -

Gee I dunno, how could any group of people be the worst enemy to a different group of people holding the exact opposite ideals?
I have no idea and surely a couple of thousand years of human history has no such occurrences either.

But their ideals aren't even opposite. There's probably more compatibility between the Horde and Alliance than within the Horde.

[Jastall]

Gambling this on Saurfang not holding to his word is pretty sketchy ground in the first place. We don't know if Saurfang knows he was assisted or not, but we do know that by virtue of him being freed by the Alliance, if he does go on to return the Horde to noblesavagery and unseat Sylvanas, this'll be because the Alliance freed him. In other words, unlike even with Vol'jin, the Horde's return to whatever its true values are this week will be facilitated by the Alliance. Anduin is teaching us how to be honorable.

As for SoO, that's not on Sylvanas and Vol'jin had already begun his rebellion by that point. He already had a constituency and the races had their own motives and build-up to opposing Garrosh, unlike Saurfang being an unwitting pawn in sparking a civil war. The Horde was the one reestablishing what it means to be Horde, the Alliance were, up until the last five minutes, out to conquer a city and using the rebels as proxies. This is the conceit of 5.3 and even the title show as much "Conqueror of Orgrimmar" vs "Liberator of Orgrimmar" and the expectation that Varian will dismantle the Horde from Jaina.

I'm sure our Horde feelings will survive the utter tragedy of Saurfang having some help in escaping if he does, well, everything else by himself and/or with Hordies. The overreaction over this is kind of absurd. We don't even know if Anduin spoke to him, Shaw might be doing all that behind his back, which given that he also orders the Blood Trolls armed is not out of the question. And even if not, there is no guarantee Saurfang even stops the war.

It's not on Sylvanas, it's on every Horde leader who absolutely accepted Alliance aid when it was convenient for them. Saurfang accepted Alliance aid when convenient for him. The difference is one of details and mercifully, the characters in the story don't have a Garrosh-tier Alliance rageboner going on at all times and thus are capable of looking at the situation with a lens other than blue team is bad must smash raargh.

[Magnagarde]

Yeah, cos there's honor in serving someone who would kill you and raise you as brainless minion. The Horde is slowly being turned into the Scourge by the Forsaken and Saurfang needs to put a stop to it.

Anduin wants Sylvanas gone and it is safe to say that Saurfang - alongside some other characters within the Horde - wants the same. Their goals allign, so why wouldn't he take the help to get the Horde back on a proper track.

[Gungnir]

But their ideals aren't even opposite. There's probably more compatibility between the Horde and Alliance than within the Horde.

Except there clearly isn't seeing as peace wasn't even close to being an option under Thrall's rule, and he's the softest warchief they ever had.
The Horde and the Alliance are nothing alike and have completely different ideals compared to eachother, much like some humans have completely different ideals compared to other humans.

You can't just go "oh well they're kinda similar in this one specific way, that should be enough".

[Super Dickmann]

I'm sure our Horde feelings will survive the utter tragedy of Saurfang having some help in escaping if he does, well, everything else by himself and/or with Hordies. The overreaction over this is kind of absurd. We don't even know if Anduin spoke to him, Shaw might be doing all that behind his back, which given that he also orders the Blood Trolls armed is not out of the question. And even if not, there is no guarantee Saurfang even stops the war..

The expansion is about a faction war. Having the person you're supposed to back be a stooge, willingly or otherwise, doesn't quite work. The changes to the Dagger in the Dark formula make Saurfang an even less appealing candidate than he was already. It doesn't particularly matter whether Anduin told him or not what matters is that he was freed as part of an Alliance plot to presumably divide the Horde. Now, Saurfang could rebel against his handlers and continue the war once he takes over, which is my hope, but it still means that he starts out tainted and we have far less reason to back him than we have to back Vol'jin at the same point in Mists. The reactions in this thread and on other forums demonstrate what I'm talking about.

It's not on Sylvanas, it's on every Horde leader who absolutely accepted Alliance aid when it was convenient for them. Saurfang accepted Alliance aid when convenient for him. The difference is one of details and mercifully, the characters in the story don't have a Garrosh-tier Alliance rageboner going on at all times and thus are capable of looking at the situation with a lens other than blue team is bad must smash raargh.

Of course it's on Saurfang, your freedom and future agenda being entirely contingent on whether the Alliance let you go is pretty far removed from fighting the same enemy because your agenda aligns with both of you being semi-equal parties, as was the Siege, or especially Battle for UC which you wisely ditched as a talking point. It's like how people try to defend Baine by hiding behind Vol'jin accepting Varian's aid. Vol'jin was already going to do this and he never willingly ditched the Horde, the one time he was away from the Horde was when he was near death and had to recover.

[Florena]

I'm sure the Alliance, or at least SI 7, is happy to have Saurfang go cause some turmoil in the Horde. But as far as him being a 'plant' in SI 7's pocket, I see no reason to believe that.

[Magnagarde]

I'm sure our Horde feelings will survive the utter tragedy of Saurfang having some help in escaping if he does, well, everything else by himself and/or with Hordies. The overreaction over this is kind of absurd. We don't even know if Anduin spoke to him, Shaw might be doing all that behind his back, which given that he also orders the Blood Trolls armed is not out of the question. And even if not, there is no guarantee Saurfang even stops the war.

It's not on Sylvanas, it's on every Horde leader who absolutely accepted Alliance aid when it was convenient for them. Saurfang accepted Alliance aid when convenient for him. The difference is one of details and mercifully, the characters in the story don't have a Garrosh-tier Alliance rageboner going on at all times and thus are capable of looking at the situation with a lens other than blue team is bad must smash raargh.

It's a win-win, though I doubt it'll succeed. The Horde would get back on track, the Alliance would get revenge on Sylvanas and the war would end.