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  1. #101
    Quote Originally Posted by prwraith View Post
    Sort of sick of mythic tbh. But at the rate Blizzards going they'll announce legendary raids soon for 4 difficulties >.<
    There is already 4 difficulties
    LFR, normal, heroic, mythic.

    And yeah, today it's just "new difficulty", which isn't the same as "new content". It also restrict "content" as "raid tier", which is VERY different from Vanilla where content could take many forms, and even the temporary ones (like leveling) where considered long-lasting and valuable, instead of just padding before the "real" content (read : raids).

  2. #102
    Quote Originally Posted by Coldfrostzero View Post
    I would actually really also like to see intended content to see the light of day from Classic. Azshara BG, Hyjal, Dragon Isles (could just be a neutral questing hub), and the original Emerald Dream.
    Yea I'm all aboard this boat. I've played vanilla 3 times already. I'd like to see the original vision finished off in the same gameplay style etc. As long as they don't design the zones like they do now. They should just make the zones they want to see, then shoehorn the content in the old-fashioned way. None of this quest flow rubbish. lol. Bring back Gilijims Isle and the Island of Dr Lapidis while they're there.

  3. #103
    Quote Originally Posted by AwkwardSquirtle View Post
    The first quote is about stuff you've not beaten yet for sure, and that's a part of it, but it's one that still exists in mythic sets and mounts.
    That's the point where I believe you are not fully correct. Simply because a higher difficulty mode does not count as actual content for many people. At least not as much as another raid with its own interior and art assets.
    For some Mythic is absolutely appealing content and that's great for them. However I do not think 2005 Blizzard was talking about players with that mindset in this video.

  4. #104
    Legendary! Deficineiron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gavll View Post
    Yea I'm all aboard this boat. I've played vanilla 3 times already. I'd like to see the original vision finished off in the same gameplay style etc. As long as they don't design the zones like they do now. They should just make the zones they want to see, then shoehorn the content in the old-fashioned way. None of this quest flow rubbish. lol. Bring back Gilijims Isle and the Island of Dr Lapidis while they're there.
    There are some things that could be finished in classic with almost zero effort - ravenholdt quest line, for example.

    I am also concerned they improve questing with 'no choices' zones and questlines.
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  5. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowpunkz View Post
    It takes an extreme loot whore to get the friggin 8? pieces?

    How in the helllll are you going to fuel the entire set to yourself? The DKP system prevents that.
    First of all, the 8 pieces aren't best in slot. It's also not hard to get 8 pieces if you're a consistent raider, over 2 months, let's just say 3 to keep you happier. Unless being a consistent raider, raiding 1 night per week doing MC and Ony is a no lifer to you. To keep you happier, sure back in the day, it may have taken you 3 nights for your first clear, but after that, your guild stormed through the content. If you were in a guild that struggled in MC or Ony, I feel sorry for you, you'd have some brain dead clueless people in that raid.

    For example, some T2 pieces are terrible.

    As I said before, if you're a consistent raider, you'll get geared fairly quickly. The DKP system rewards consistent raiders.

    All it takes is to be a consistent raider, over a couple of months. That's not a no lifer, that's raiding a few nights a week (not needed if it's only MC and Ony at first), which gets shorter and shorter as time goes on. With MC and Ony only available at first, 1 night for a few hours will be all you need.

    Your whole idea of vanilla is flawed.

    If your guild is bad, a feeder guild, or has lots of people that constantly quit, then you may have to run MC and Ony when BWL comes out. You'll probably run MC for TF though, as I doubt your tanks will be lucky enough to all have that when BWL arrives, I miss stuff like that. But at the same time, I don't miss running old tiers when I don't have to or for some ridiculously low drop.

    Quote Originally Posted by therealbowser View Post
    It takes 2-3 nights with 4+ hours of raiding for essentially half a year or more to reach Naxxramus for an entire group of 40 players, if not more.
    4 hours not needed, unless you're in a terrible guild.

    Raids are also not released at the same time. While waiting for a raid to release, your raid time per week will be short. If you play consistently, you'll be BiS before the next tier is out, meaning you can take a break before the next tier. You over estimate the gear needed to start Naxx.

    I rerolled on a new server when all the raids were out in vanilla, and guilds were clearing bosses in Naxx after a month, maybe 2. They would have certainly no lifed lvl'n.
    Last edited by Tekkommo; 2018-10-12 at 01:28 PM.

  6. #106
    Quote Originally Posted by RoKPaNda View Post
    Times change. What seemed like a good idea in Vanilla based on prior MMOs didn't stand up well to years of actual data. Players didn't aspire to raid, and no matter what Blizzard tried they could never get players into raids until ... LFR.

    So yes Blizzard was wrong in Vanilla, they learned, it happens.
    Seems the opposite to me, game was much more successful in Vanilla and TBC than later, and the "lesson learned" were mostly wrong and only hampered the game.
    If one thing stand up well to years of actual data, it's that the game had much more success and much better reputation before the 180° change in design.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by AwkwardSquirtle View Post
    The first quote is about stuff you've not beaten yet for sure, and that's a part of it, but it's one that still exists in mythic sets and mounts.
    The fact that you seriously refer to a difficulty mode for a raid and a collectible as "content" in a meaningful sense is pretty much the illustration of the whole problem.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Writhes View Post
    It simply doesn't make sense from a development standpoint to sink time and money into content that the large portion of the playerbase will never see.
    I does, if your understanding doesn't stop at the shallowest level.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tekkommo View Post
    All it takes is to be a consistent raider, over a couple of months.
    Have you actually ever played Vanilla ?

  7. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by Akka View Post
    Have you actually ever played Vanilla ?
    Yes, and recently on a private server as well, where all our consistent raiders got geared quickly.

    Maybe I shouldn't have said pure BiS over a couple of months, but you don't have to anywhere near no life to get it, which is my main point.

    When you see someone in full tier, they're probably in a good guild that clears stuff fast, meaning they probably have more free time outside of raids than the bad guilds that struggle to kill bosses.
    Last edited by Tekkommo; 2018-10-12 at 01:51 PM.

  8. #108
    Quote Originally Posted by Wewlad View Post
    You left out one part: that many people don't care for higher difficulty levels since it's a repeat. Not nearly the same as going through a progressively harder, one difficulty level, raid. If you already killed the final boss then it doesn't feel so epic killing it again despite the higher challenge.
    "But, but... it's not fair or people who only play 30 minutes a week to not be able to see and clear all content!" You must make a level difficulty that delivers the experience and rewards, without having to play the game at all."

    I agree 100%... one difficulty... challenging, with each boss being a little more difficult than the last. Everyone can raid... but not everyone will make it to the last boss. It takes progression to get there... and if you don't play, you don't progress.

    If you change it so that everyone clears the raids on "some" difficulty, you remove the motivation for players to play past a certain level.

    I.E. if a player is satisfied with LFR... he will never feel motivated to play more to try for Heroic. The raiding pool is decreased. if you have one pool... Then everyone is working on the same difficulty, then everyone keeps playing together to "get there".

    I think the pinnacle of raiding was Ulduar... 10 and 25 man raids, one difficulty, with hardmodes to try for.

  9. #109
    Quote Originally Posted by Sinndor View Post
    No it wastn. Retention was pretty high. That nonsen about game getting more players than lossing is made up by todays casuals to justifi existence of LFR and other nonMMORPG systems. I was casual back in vannila, TBC and i have never quit single time becouse i didnt get to see content. I dont even know anyone who quit wow becouse they didnt get to see naxx or w/e.
    The game has always had churn, the only difference being the influx of new players or returning players to mask those leaving.

    Just because you personally stayed does not make it true for everyone else. LFR was brought out in Cata in part to help with bleeding of subs they were experiencing. This doesnt mean the game wasn't good back then, it was even more so compared to what was out at the time as well. But there was still churn. This is why there were over 100Million accounts made for wow. Not sure why this is a hard concept for you to understand.

  10. #110
    Legendary! Deficineiron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by khalltusk View Post
    The game has always had churn, the only difference being the influx of new players or returning players to mask those leaving.

    Just because you personally stayed does not make it true for everyone else. LFR was brought out in Cata in part to help with bleeding of subs they were experiencing. This doesnt mean the game wasn't good back then, it was even more so compared to what was out at the time as well. But there was still churn. This is why there were over 100Million accounts made for wow. Not sure why this is a hard concept for you to understand.

    what % of those are chinese? blizz never said, but netease accounts are pretty much irrelevant for this forum's players.

    what % of those are gold cut-out and farmbot accounts that were banned, of those that remain (blizzard accounts, not netease)? I would bet the % would shock players, 10%+? heck, losing throwaway basic account licenses to use as cut-outs was almost considered a 'tax' by blizzard at one point.
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  11. #111
    Its 2018, try not to get stuck in the past. Audience changes and the game develops. If you want to blame someone for it, blame the people sending feedback, because the game is tailored around them.

  12. #112
    Quote Originally Posted by Deficineiron View Post
    what % of those are chinese? blizz never said, but netease accounts are pretty much irrelevant for this forum's players.

    what % of those are gold cut-out and farmbot accounts that were banned, of those that remain (blizzard accounts, not netease)? I would bet the % would shock players, 10%+? heck, losing throwaway basic account licenses to use as cut-outs was almost considered a 'tax' by blizzard at one point.
    Does it matter to the conversation how many were Chinese or gold farmer accounts? The way churn works in games and other business is pretty much the same. You release a product and over time after its peak you get a decline in "new" people willing to try out this product. You then need to retain players or lure old players back in.

    This is why when a new expansion comes out you see a large spike in players. This does not mean wow was not good in Vanilla or TBC etc. I enjoyed it a lot during Vanilla.

  13. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by UnifiedDivide View Post
    Yeah, no. Retention throughout Vanilla to Wrath was pretty poor, really. If you had over 100 MILLION people try your game but only managed to keep roughly 12 million of those around, you have dreadful retention rates. Nice, pointless, anecdote though, I guess?
    The new special mental gymnastics right there. So 100 mil accounts (mostly duplicates) from 2004 till cata with a peak of 12 mil subs in icc = a pretty dreadful retention rate from the most successful period in mmo history.

  14. #114
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowpunkz View Post
    I dont care about the current game anymore. So it wont make me mad in any way.
    I stopped trying to give feedback for the current game a long time ago.
    Why bother? Nothing ever changes and we will never go back in time.
    I just gave up

    Classic is the answer
    Yep thats it. Legion and BFA pretty much turned the game into a arcade loot pinata with some slot machine RNG. Hope they dont fuck up Classic.

  15. #115
    Quote Originally Posted by Adlian View Post
    Yep thats it. Legion and BFA pretty much turned the game into a arcade loot pinata with some slot machine RNG. Hope they dont fuck up Classic.
    I will be glad when classic is out. People will have a good choice in what they want to play. The only question is how people can access the game, do they attach it to an existing sub for the main game etc.

  16. #116
    Legendary! Deficineiron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by khalltusk View Post
    Does it matter to the conversation how many were Chinese or gold farmer accounts? The way churn works in games and other business is pretty much the same. You release a product and over time after its peak you get a decline in "new" people willing to try out this product. You then need to retain players or lure old players back in.

    This is why when a new expansion comes out you see a large spike in players. This does not mean wow was not good in Vanilla or TBC etc. I enjoyed it a lot during Vanilla.
    when someone starts throwing the 100m number around, does it matter what the number includes, and when it was stated? it is better to just cower at the 100,000,000 and avoid saying anything that might put some perspective on it?

    obviosly neither you nor I know how manynetease or banned accounts are in that number, but they are presumably both in it.

    also, didn't wow put a ~30,000,000 created account number out years before that one? I want to say they did, though cursory timegoogle doesn't turn it up.

    I think a more interesting churn gauge is the tbc-wotlk transition - this was a blizzard-only release (late 2008, netease did it fall 2009) and subs only, at the most, spiked 1m or so based on the best info available - and this was the western peak. when you look at sub spikes in subsequent expansions, particularly cat-panda and panda-AU, it suggests that most folks disposed to return to wow for wotlk release were, in fact, already subbed - (later expansions releases were all worldwide, but even then the sub spikes were much larger than only 2x bc-wotlk)
    Last edited by Deficineiron; 2018-10-12 at 02:26 PM.
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  17. #117
    Quote Originally Posted by Tekkommo View Post
    Yes, and recently on a private server as well, where all our consistent raiders got geared quickly.

    Maybe I shouldn't have said pure BiS over a couple of months, but you don't have to anywhere near no life to get it, which is my main point.
    I agree you don't need to be a no-lifer at all (at least for the first two tiers). But even several months is a ridiculous claim, and you don't even need experience in Vanilla, just basic math : there is 2 tier drops at best per boss, and 40+ people in a raid. Even with the (impossible) "perfect" drop amount (exact 1 to 1 match between what drops and what is needed, without duplicate), it means 20 weeks at best.
    In reality, you'll have more than 40 people in the roster, and several duplicates, so count more on something like 30 weeks. That's a very far cry from two months.

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    Quote Originally Posted by klaps_05 View Post
    Its 2018, try not to get stuck in the past.
    What a dumb argument. If a game is good, it's good. Being old or new is irrelevant. Do you stop watching old movies because they were made in the past ? Herp derp.

  18. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by Akka View Post
    Seems the opposite to me, game was much more successful in Vanilla and TBC than later, and the "lesson learned" were mostly wrong and only hampered the game.
    If one thing stand up well to years of actual data, it's that the game had much more success and much better reputation before the 180° change in design.
    And yet no matter what they did up until they added LFR they couldn't get more than a small fraction of the playerbase to set foot in raids. Most of the playerbase didn't want to raid, it wasn't a goal that they had, they wanted an endgame yes but they didn't want to raid. Raiding was, until LFR, mostly wasted resources for Blizzard. The majority of resources in a content patch went into content that the vast vast vast majority of players wouldn't even see. Ever since BC they tried making raids more casual to get participation numbers up and nothing worked. The closest they came was a pathetic tier like Naxx-10/25 but come Ulduar participation fell off again. Raiding wasn't sustainable as it was. Finally they got their shit together and gave other people than us hardcore players an endgame, it only took them several years.

    Did you actually play Vanilla? The forums were filled with complaints then also. This game has never had a great reputation. Wait for classic realms and watch all the complaining that happens.
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  19. #119
    Quote Originally Posted by Gavll View Post
    Yea I'm all aboard this boat. I've played vanilla 3 times already. I'd like to see the original vision finished off in the same gameplay style etc. As long as they don't design the zones like they do now. They should just make the zones they want to see, then shoehorn the content in the old-fashioned way. None of this quest flow rubbish. lol. Bring back Gilijims Isle and the Island of Dr Lapidis while they're there.
    I think that is the missed opportunity that the purists don't see. They could develop on Classic in minor ways. Issue some balances here and there and really make Classic a continued experience without bringing in the systems that people disagree with. Keep the classic philosophy of hybrid classes (make them at least playable imo), no LFR/LFG (I would like the group finder tool of today personally. They had an early version of it in Classic iirc that didn't see much use because it was fairly hard to find and the Cata version lasted about 4 months before Open.raid did it better), no flying, etc. I am not a person against transmog only because I enjoy not looking like a clown 24/7, but to each their own /shrug

  20. #120
    Quote Originally Posted by RoKPaNda View Post
    And yet no matter what they did up until they added LFR they couldn't get more than a small fraction of the playerbase to set foot in raids. Most of the playerbase didn't want to raid, it wasn't a goal that they had, they wanted an endgame yes but they didn't want to raid. Raiding was, until LFR, mostly wasted resources for Blizzard. The majority of resources in a content patch went into content that the vast vast vast majority of players wouldn't even see. Ever since BC they tried making raids more casual to get participation numbers up and nothing worked. The closest they came was a pathetic tier like Naxx-10/25 but come Ulduar participation fell off again. Raiding wasn't sustainable as it was. Finally they got their shit together and gave other people than us hardcore players an endgame, it only took them several years.

    Did you actually play Vanilla? The forums were filled with complaints then also. This game has never had a great reputation. Wait for classic realms and watch all the complaining that happens.
    This is just utter fucking nonsense. End bosses were seen by few and that's a good thing, but a good chunk of the player base raided. Nowhere near this one percent shit people throw around.

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