Saurfang is an SI:7/Alliance asset

[Ramz]

I would also prefer Rokhan be given a larger role especially since he's the de-facto Darkspear leader and is finally given attention, but we work with what we're given. I would've preferred Rastakhan not die either, but you know. The recap mentions Nathanos rallying the forces and Nathanos is pretty Sylvanas #2 guy. Others were involved yes, but along with Sylvanas reaffirming her support for the Zandalari after the siege I'm dubious about the Zandalari beginning with some kind of animus for her specifically considering that she was the one to order the Horde to help them and they just had the Alliance sack their town. To then band against her Horde wouldn't make much sense.

I'm on board with you here and on PTR forums there is feedbac for it.
https://eu.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/17624592364
and it's us copy:
https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20769757021#1

Anyone can bump it up with feedback ans support.

[Aucald]

On this very page you argue that tracking Saurfang's remains after they have been disposed of would be accessible and easily done by what amounts to a novice shaman, as would signalling his spirit, which as has repeatedly been pointed out isn't easy. Yet now the crux of your argument is based around the fact that the most skilled trackers Sylvanas can muster, who literally spend hundreds of years learning these skills in life as rangers would be unable to figure out that Saurfang had someone else with him in a swamp or follow the movements of a guy who's been through one battle, has never seen this place before in his life and has no subtlety. And this is predicated on Zappy abandoning Saurfang, his idol, then somehow undertaking a journey back alone and undetected. I'm sorry, but this just doesn't gel. There's no way that they wouldn't able to find him and kill him given an overview of Shrek Saurfang's swamp.

Did I not already say that summoning his spirit would be difficult would require help - I'm pretty sure I did, so I'm not sure why you're still going on about that point. The vision trance ritual, however, doesn't seem very complicated as it is performed in-game by what would be a novice Shaman (e.g. a Draenei Shaman). I also didn't say Lyana wouldn't be able to track Zekhan - it is simply that she would have no reason to, as we have no reason to believe that Lyana even knows Zekhan exists until she is confronted by him later on. I'm saying that in the example where Lyana does the tracking herself, under secrecy and disguising her intent, there's no reason that Zekhan and Lyana's paths would intersect. Zekhan would be waiting at Three Corners for possible assassins while Lyana does her work (unless you're saying that there's no way Lyana could evade Zekhan's notice), and would eventually go back to Saurfang's hideout only to discover it is in flames, or Saurfang is dead, or that Saurfang is gone without a trace. Either way, Zekhan has a reason to find out what happened to Saurfang. I think this is somewhat easy reasoning to follow.

What frustrates me is the disingenuous nature of your argument. You posit first a strawman of my position - i.e that everyone is 100% behind Sylvanas and then roundly handwave the multitudes of evidence I've provided that the Horde is at the very least overwhelmingly pro-war, including in these instances the War Campaign, the Warfronts, the dialogue of NPCs such as Rexxar, Cromush, Lilian and so on and events such as the decision for them to ignore Saurfang and burn the tree or take part in the Sacking of Brennadam. At the same time, you elevate the comparatively much, much more limited evidence of Saurfang-support being established as very high by overstating the value of comments from one meme character - the Kratos dude, Baine, who is as said, effectively an Alliance sympathizer and traitor since Tides of War who would be against any war by default and out of story ideas on what storyline were to follow.

What seems disingenuous about your argument is your dismissal of any contrary evidence because it doesn't fit your narrative. For example, the Orc and his son who discuss the philosophical ramifications of the war - you dismiss it because it's based on Kratos and his son from "God of War," and looks like meme. Okay, that's true - but it's also canon content that exists in-game - it being a tongue-in-cheek reference to "God of War" doesn't mean it isn't there. Garona's bristling at her own service - dismissed because she still follows the Warchief's commands. Rexxar himself doesn't directly support Sylvanas' war but only says that he'll hard-check Jaina if he has to (and Jaina's become more and more partisan as time goes by so his position here isn't surprising). You discount Baine because of the charge that he's an "Alliance sympathizer," which is itself something of a spurious charge - and it doesn't matter in this context anyways, because he (and those Tauren that feel as he does) would swiftly rally behind a resurgent Saurfang in a power-play for Horde leadership. You're saying no one else could possibly have mixed feelings because we don't see incidents of it in-game, and I'm saying that mixed feelings about a war and those leading in wartime is pretty much a given in the universal sense. We're not privy to tavern gossip in Orgrimmar either, so are we to assume that it doesn't exist in the game's story?

Later on you accuse me of conflating out of game and in story events when your arguments cease to make sense without that conceit. You admitted earlier that the reason you think there's such a divide in-story among the Horde is because it exists in the playerbase, any evidence be damned and now that because Blizzard are likely to recycle the Mists story, it means that the story as presented now reflects this intent. Intent however isn't action. The reason I keep coming back to Vol'jin is because that was a situation where the story was built up, and even then not exceptionally well. In this case, the only reason I heavily suspect this is the route they're going is the utter incompetence of the writing staff and their love with characters the playerbase soundly despises, such as Baine and Anduin, it's not due to their ingenious foreshadowing in-game. Thus, you are forced to blow every evidence that supports your thesis that a majority of the Horde prefer Saurfang out of proportion to defend Blizzard's predetermined outcome, while dismissing the multitudes of evidence that the Horde in general is pro-war and pro-war with Sylvanas as Warchief to a lesser extent.

Your argument seems to be "if it doesn't appear directly in-game, then it doesn't exist," which seems to deny that the world, in terms of its story, is supposed to be a living and organic thing with direct parallels to our own. Yes, this is both inference and supposition, but it is inference and supposition based on what we already know to be true about the world. I also never claimed that the Horde prefer Saurfang out of proportion or overwhelmingly - specifically, I said there is an undercurrent of mistrust or discontent that could serve as a nascent rebellion. If pressed, I would say Sylvanas probably enjoys majority support in the Horde, perhaps around 65%. That leaves 35% of the Horde that isn't so supportive, from those who are willing to go along with the war for want of a better option (such as Garona, or the Champion) to those who are dead-set against it (such as Baine). 35% is enough of a constituency to start a rebellion, though; and someone as charismatic as Saurfang could easily begin to turn hearts and minds.

It tarnishes his reasoning because it makes him and us complicit in an Alliance plot to topple the Horde, something the player and Sylvanas is aware of. Aiding Saurfang is aiding the Alliance. This was not the case with Vol'jin, who's rebellion was an organic development that happened entirely within the Horde rather than a scheme by the enemy secret service. To assume that it would make no difference to the Horde that their glorious hero, who by the way chose to sit in the cell and chose to abandon them earlier was released as part of an Alliance plot, which would be highly likely for Sylvanas to publicize should it come to a rebellion, is comical.

I disagree - you seem to assume that if Saurfang were to supplant Sylvanas that war would end with an Alliance victory, and I don't think this is so. As I said before, wars tend to generate their own momentum, and I doubt that even if Saurfang were to become the Warchief of the Horde he'd be able to just end the war there and then. He certainly wouldn't be able to just hand Anduin victory - the Horde would never permit that, they'd just as quickly put his head on a pike alongside Sylvanas' in this scenario (and Saurfang would have to be completely bone-dead stupid to think otherwise as well). The tone of the war would change, definitely; and Saurfang's ascent would make eventual peace possible where it currently isn't - but it would be a long, hard road to that point. The damage has been done at this point, and the faction conflict isn't going to end until both sides fight themselves out or one side is forced to concede (another thing Saurfang is exceedingly unlikely to do were he in the position).

On the contrary, you are presenting a version of events that is not true to reality. There's no 24/7 camera showing the Horde that Saurfang broke out or that he broke out because he really wanted to bring muh honor back to a Horde that's well rid of it. The events surrounding Saurfang are of a strict secrecy. You have, for the past several pages, both with me and Mehrunes failed to bring up any argument when it comes to the publicizing of these events being so widespread or why the Horde would have a preference for the version of events that cast their leader in the worst possible light, a version that inexplicably excludes Saurfang's unknowning collaboration with humans and previous transgressions. You have taken it for granted because you're arguing from the conclusion. Your position is founded upon Blizzard's narrative having a set end goal and because that end goal is there, the components for it must be there as well. But they aren't, because the story is poorly set up and that's why you are put in a position where you must take huge leaps of reason that contradict what we have seen established in order to reach your predetermined conclusion.

I've already covered multiple ways in which Saurfang's escape, flight, and/or possible disappearance would come to light. In 8.1 it looks like Saurfang's escape from the Stockades is already knowledge Sylvanas has when she first sends Lyana and the Champion to investigate. Do you think that is going to remain secret forever? It seems very unlikely. You have yet to really discount any of those possible vectors for it becoming common knowledge. To recap:

1.) Saurfang is, either via fame or infamy, a very important personage.
2.) SI:7 had a hand in freeing Saurfang, so the Alliance has a vested interest in making sure his escape is common knowledge (to stir up unrest).
3.) Sylvanas had to be told of this occurrence, possibly by spies in Alliance territory. How many people are inside the circle of trust, and can they all be trusted?
4.) Zekhan is aware of Saurfang's escape and is his ally, and also not being sought by either faction that we know of. He can also spread knowledge of Saurfang's escape.

There are multiple routes by which the knowledge of Saurfang's escape can swiftly become common knowledge - and if Saurfang escaped for the reasons we both think he did, it is in his interest to allow this knowledge to become so.

On the contrary, I've noted that there are elements, such as Baine, that could become rebellious if given a figurehead in Saurfang, to rally behind but that the majority of the Horde we've seen is pro-war and a significant portion is fine with the way Sylvanas wages the war. This is just what Blizzard have presented us. To treat Brennadam as unrepresentative, but Baine, by far the most pro-Alliance horde character, and Kratos, a meme, as representative is another exercise in your disingenuous form of argumentation.

I see the problem now, and I think I can help with your misunderstanding. I think the Horde soldiers at Brennadam as well as Baine and the meme-character you discount are all representative in their ways. I'm not discounting one or the other where it suits me to do so - I think they all represent different opinions and mindsets, and this is why I think that the Horde is not in lock-step with Sylvanas' regime. They're *all* representative, and so play into the notion that the Horde has differing opinions and viewpoints. There are some in the Horde who support Sylvanas completely and relish the idea of the war, that is what is on display at Brennadam. There are others who don't support Sylvanas and question the Horde's role in the war, and that is represented by characters such as Garona, Baine, the Traveling Warrior and Son.

Saurfang would both have a preexisting receptive audience in the form of Baine, and also be able to use his own botched assassination attempt in order to drive others into rebellion, banking on his previous reputation. Even a small division in the Horde, when they're already on the backfoot, would be a serious boon for the Alliance in their war. My position, unlike what you've claimed, is not that Sylvanas enjoys close to universal support, but that the war does and Sylvanas enjoys tangential support on that basis. Perhaps that was not Blizzard's intent, but that is the product they have made and that is the thing they have shown us. Unless we're arguing on the basis of future hypothetical content and then applying its findings retroactively to content that does not bear out this position, as you have been doing, then the claim that there is a developed subversive movement anywhere close to say, Vol'jin's base of support or even the Tides of War or Cata-era Anti-Garrosh movement is simply false. It's making excuses for poor storytelling and purposefully ignoring multiple sources of information to push one that aligns with a predetermined conclusion.

The war is largely its own creature now - Sylvanas enjoys some indirect support for it because the Horde wants to fight the war, but that equation would change if the Horde were to find out that they were duped, or that war was started on false pretenses. The content we've seen in 8.1 underlines that this shift in the Horde's awareness is becoming a distinct possibility, which I've outlined previously.

It'd be akin to arguing that Grom was on the way to redemption despite all his deeds and thus said redemption made sense at the end of Warlords, simply on the basis that this is the conclusion Blizzard have set up, so ipso facto the rest of the evidence must be aligned with this conclusion.

I don't think Grommash in WoD and Sylvanas in BfA are really comparable entities, at least at this point. Grom's heel-face turn didn't even begin to happen until the Tanaan content in WoD. We are now presumably at the coda of the first act of BfA - so it's quite a different set-up, all told.

On the contrary, it is you who confuse the two. I am applying the reactions we see in-game, whereas by your own admission you project the opinions of the playerbase onto the content even in the absence of evidence. Then you caricutarize my position to further push that point. In the process, you dodge the core points I'm making regarding the faults of the narrative and the incompatibility of first Saurfang's ideals with how the Horde acts in the pre-patch and up to 8.1 and consequently, the 180 turn that has to take place to have Saurfang turn out to be right. There is a discrepancy between what Blizzard want to tell us and want us to believe and what they're actually showing. I'm defending the latter, you are defending the former and in the process you are defending the asinine writing presented.

Handled above.

I have never once argued Sylvanas' altruism on these forums, but rather I am arguing against the notion that Zandalar would be situated against Sylvanas by default. The Zandalari are not privy to her internal thoughts and machinations, if she even means anything duplicitous here which is dubious, given even the much lambasted invasion of Stormwind includes in her internal monologue mentions of what parts of the kingdom she'd dole out to her allies to keep them satisfied. Sylvanas is PR conscious and whatever her intent, without her intervention, without her and the Forsaken, Zandalar would have fallen twice over. These are the direct results of major policy decisions she has taken as regards Zandalar.

Zandalar is indebted to Sylvanas (and the Horde), but they've demonstrated that they also mistrust her (on the basis that she's an Elf and also undead). I am saying that if a power struggle were to arise in the Horde, and if Sylvanas' deeds were to become common knowledge (or if Saurfang went on the warpath as concerns polemic) then I could easily see Zandalar backing Saurfang over Sylvanas.

[Zyky]

So he's an Alliance puppet.

It's highly unlikely that he's a puppet. He hates the Alliance and would never work with them unless it was for the Horde. He's doing the same as Vol'jin/Baine did in Mists, he believes siding with the Alliance is the way to save the Horde from Sylvanas. As Blizzard has stated several times that this isn't another Garrosh, he'll be shown the error of his ways sooner or later and either die or go back to the Horde.

[Makabreska]

https://i.imgur.com/xef1S0e.png

this is the future of the horde. fucking elves. they and forsaken should NEVER have joined the horde. they ruined everything

I mean, too see the state of the current Horde, all you need to do is realize this: they are being led by a high elf with human as her right hand.

[Super Dickmann]

I also didn't say Lyana wouldn't be able to track Zekhan - it is simply that she would have no reason to, as we have no reason to believe that Lyana even knows Zekhan exists until she is confronted by him later on. I'm saying that in the example where Lyana does the tracking herself, under secrecy and disguising her intent, there's no reason that Zekhan and Lyana's paths would intersect. Zekhan would be waiting at Three Corners for possible assassins while Lyana does her work (unless you're saying that there's no way Lyana could evade Zekhan's notice), and would eventually go back to Saurfang's hideout only to discover it is in flames, or Saurfang is dead, or that Saurfang is gone without a trace. Either way, Zekhan has a reason to find out what happened to Saurfang. I think this is somewhat easy reasoning to follow.

This is a problem exacerbated by how we have no idea how Zappy got there or what he knows, but inferring that skilled trackers would be able to tell that there's two people inhabiting Saurfang's house or to be able to follow tracks Zappy may have left up to Three Crossroads or hell, even waiting in ambush just in case there's a risk of witnesses isn't out of the question. And supposing Memeboi does not see the assassination and returns to find his mentor gone the idea that he'd be able to reconstruct a version of events on how Sylvanas' killed him and be able to return to what is presumably an area rich with her spies to proliferate it also strains credulity. It's possible he'd escape unnoticed, but highly unlikely given the quality of people sent after him. Even then, he'd have a lot of trouble given that Sylvanas can take advantage of an entire state apparatus should rumours of someone who saw Saurfang killed spring up. On top of that, he poses far less of a threat as some rando grunt passing the word that nobody knows about than risking exposing the PC to the assassination, which is what they do. Hence why I maintain it was either an arrest attempt or impressive incompetence.

What seems disingenuous about your argument is your dismissal of any contrary evidence because it doesn't fit your narrative. For example, the Orc and his son who discuss the philosophical ramifications of the war - you dismiss it because it's based on Kratos and his son from "God of War," and looks like meme. Okay, that's true - but it's also canon content that exists in-game - it being a tongue-in-cheek reference to "God of War" doesn't mean it isn't there. Garona's bristling at her own service - dismissed because she still follows the Warchief's commands. Rexxar himself doesn't directly support Sylvanas' war but only says that he'll hard-check Jaina if he has to (and Jaina's become more and more partisan as time goes by so his position here isn't surprising). You discount Baine because of the charge that he's an "Alliance sympathizer," which is itself something of a spurious charge - and it doesn't matter in this context anyways, because he (and those Tauren that feel as he does) would swiftly rally behind a resurgent Saurfang in a power-play for Horde leadership.

Baine being a traitor and an Alliance sympathizer is the opposite of a spurious charge, it's basic fact. But setting that aside for a moment, I am not dismissing these points. All evidence is not born equal and between people who follow Sylvanas and people who don't, or even between people who back Sylvanas specifically and those who don't, the ratio of those we see is very lopsided. The Kratos meme represents himself, the Brennadam grunts and headhunters along with the entirety of the force deployed there which put humans to forced labour and stitch civilians into abominations represent a much larger group. Baine also represents a larger group, but it's also a group that's completely unchanged in allegiance at any point. Baine will always work to betray and sabotage the Horde in favour of the Alliance when he has someone to hide behind. If Saurfang doesn't take the initiative, he won't do it. Vol'jin is proof of this as his meek compliance with Sylvanas throughout the available content. Qualitatively, criticism exists, but no explicit support for Saurfang, by contrast there's qualitatively both Sylvanas support and general war support and there's much, much more of the latter than there is of any sentiment hostile to the Horde's current track. By contrast, the anti-Garrosh faction at this point in Mists or even in Cata was much better defined and widespread and had its reasoning examined. This is not the case for the handful individuals critical of Sylvanas we see.

Your argument seems to be "if it doesn't appear directly in-game, then it doesn't exist," which seems to deny that the world, in terms of its story, is supposed to be a living and organic thing with direct parallels to our own. Yes, this is both inference and supposition, but it is inference and supposition based on what we already know to be true about the world.

My stance is yes, if it's not in the game and not in the supplemental materials and can't be extrapolated from things we see therein, then it doesn't exist, it's at best speculation. This is the only way to actually lead a genuine conversation and argument because otherwise we can imagine whatever context, popular support or motive best suits our narrative at the time. The numbers you offer here are your preference, by your own admission they're what they are because they essentially feel right. I could claim just as easily that Sylvanas has churned out a massive propaganda apparatus to bring everyone into the war and is watching any dissent to nip it in the bud preemptively hence why she is essentially unopposed until the SI:7 scheme kicks in later. We'd have precisely the same backing for what we say, i.e nill, and it'd make coming to any sort of consensus impossible because we wouldn't be working with the same materials. There must be backing to the claims else it's just fanfiction.

I disagree - you seem to assume that if Saurfang were to supplant Sylvanas that war would end with an Alliance victory, and I don't think this is so. As I said before, wars tend to generate their own momentum, and I doubt that even if Saurfang were to become the Warchief of the Horde he'd be able to just end the war there and then.

The very act of Saurfang beginning a civil war to reinstate muh honor in the middle of a total war with the Alliance that the Horde is losing would ensure a Horde defeat, hence why he is being freed from prison. The notion that he would instead of arranging peace continue the war afterwards would be my preferred version but given that the narrative is fixated on proving Anduin right about everything 24/7 on every count I won't hold my breath. What's certain is that he's not being released to benefit the Horde, he's being released to weaken the Horde and make the Alliance more powerful and in assisting him by killing the dark rangers that is what we are achieving.

1.) Saurfang is, either via fame or infamy, a very important personage.

That by itself has no informative character. Everyone on the Broken Shore is famous but that doesn't mean the truth about the Broken Shore was known until BTS and even then only by Anduin, the majority of the Alliance still believed it was a betrayal by the Horde.

2.) SI:7 had a hand in freeing Saurfang, so the Alliance has a vested interest in making sure his escape is common knowledge (to stir up unrest).

This is true, they'd have every interest to propagandize, but so would Sylvanas. Given that the Horde ruler is an absolute dictator and would also have more trust for her propaganda than the Alliance, it's pretty clear who's side the spin would be on if it came to a competition given the ability of such a ruler to suppress information and the confirmation bias of the Horde towards a version that casts them in a good light rather than one of their main historical figures as a traitor and their Warchief as a killer without cause.

3.) Sylvanas had to be told of this occurrence, possibly by spies in Alliance territory. How many people are inside the circle of trust, and can they all be trusted?

Okay, more people would know Saurfang escaped, what of it? They wouldn't know that Sylvanas ordered the hit on him later nor would they know the means by which she would later conduct the assassination. Even if they did, see point 2, the propaganda machine is on her side, not theirs. She has a larger, more receptive audience.

4.) Zekhan is aware of Saurfang's escape and is his ally, and also not being sought by either faction that we know of. He can also spread knowledge of Saurfang's escape.

See above as to the likelihood of Zekhan not being killed. But let's say he did proliferate information. Again, what of it? He's a nobody, some grunt who claims he saw Saurfang's hut burned down and found a bit of his beard in between a crocolisk's teeth, why would anyone care or believe him? How would the very fact that he escaped somehow lead people to believe that Sylvanas killed him rather than SI:7 killing the escapee when they weren't able to prevent his escape. What, again, prevents Sylvanas from spinning this information through propaganda the same way Anduin insists she would be able to spin the Gathering and ensure the Alliance version of events, i.e the truth, never gets out?

'm not discounting one or the other where it suits me to do so - I think they all represent different opinions and mindsets, and this is why I think that the Horde is not in lock-step with Sylvanas' regime.

Handled above. Quality vs Quality, and then Quantity vs Quantity. One thing is much, much more prevalent than the other and that's pro-war sentiment, the other thing is slightly more popular than the other, that is explicitly pro-Sylvanas sentiment. Specifically pro-Saurfang sentiment doesn't exist from the in-game material. Indeed if we for some reason take Sylvanas' statement at the start of the 8.1 quest chain at face value, there is in fact anti-Saurfang sentiment with people already claiming correctly that he's a traitor.

The war is largely its own creature now - Sylvanas enjoys some indirect support for it because the Horde wants to fight the war, but that equation would change if the Horde were to find out that they were duped, or that war was started on false pretenses.

This may well be the case, but is meaningless by itself as it hasn't taken place. I even took the time to differentiate between pro-war and pro-Sylvanas sentiment and no matter which you slice it they outweigh pro-Saurfang support. Your argument earlier that this is just gameplay prominence runs counter to the heavy set up put into say, anti-Garrosh sentiment from the very start of Cataclysm.

I don't think Grommash in WoD and Sylvanas in BfA are really comparable entities, at least at this point. Grom's heel-face turn didn't even begin to happen until the Tanaan content in WoD. We are now presumably at the coda of the first act of BfA - so it's quite a different set-up, all told.

I'm bringing Grom up as an example because his redemption was an asspull and he was still a monster when he told a crowd of his former victims that Draenor was free. His redemption wasn't seeded in at all. Similarly, anti-Sylvanas sentiment is seeded extremely sparsely and poorly and pro-Saurfang sentiment consists of Memeboi and apparently the PC. The setup is extremely limited for an anti-Sylvanas constituency much like with Grom's redemption. That they'd later happen doesn't mean that they'd be setup or that they'd show a congruent, cohesive plotline.

Zandalar is indebted to Sylvanas (and the Horde), but they've demonstrated that they also mistrust her (on the basis that she's an Elf and also undead). I am saying that if a power struggle were to arise in the Horde, and if Sylvanas' deeds were to become common knowledge (or if Saurfang went on the warpath as concerns polemic) then I could easily see Zandalar backing Saurfang over Sylvanas.

I'm saying that Sylvanas would have an early lead in this case as they don't even know who Saurfang is. Past that, yes, they could turn one way or another, but they aren't an anti-Sylvanas constituency as of any material we're shown nor has this been set up. If anything, as already mentioned, they're closer to Sylvanas than they are to someone like Baine.

[Broken Fox]

I can see Zekhan confronting Sylvanas like a naive doofus and getting himself killed

[Makabreska]

I can see Zekhan confronting Sylvanas like an naive doofus and getting himself killed

Well, that would piss off Saurfang like nothing else on that world.

[Hubbl3]

Well, that would piss off Saurfang like nothing else on that world.

When the duel was honorable he wouldn't be able to do anything.

[Aucald]

--- snip ---

I think we're pretty much talking past one another at this point, let's just say we agree to disagree and we'll see how things shake out in future content.

[Makabreska]

When the duel was honorable he wouldn't be able to do anything.

I think he wouldn't care about anything then. Would see all red. Maybe even would take sip of demon blood to bolster his odds.

[Hubbl3]

I think he wouldn't care about anything then. Would see all red. Maybe even would take sip of demon blood to bolster his odds.

But that wouldn't be honorable, thus breaking his entire character arc.

[KrakHed]

When the duel was honorable he wouldn't be able to do anything.

Sure he would. Would it be honorable to do nothing? Saurfang's honor is shallow and hypocritical at the start of BFA, and called out for that.

I'm almost 100% certain that Saurfang's story is to actually properly contemplate the things he believes about honor, and so work through to a firmer set of ideals. Ones that mean something. Should honor be about formalities or doing what you know is right, and fuck the social niceties?

[Hubbl3]

Sure he would. Would it be honorable to do nothing? Saurfang's honor is shallow and hypocritical at the start of BFA, and called out for that.

I'm almost 100% certain that Saurfang's story is to actually properly contemplate the things he believes about honor, and so work through to a firmer set of ideals. Ones that mean something. Should honor be about formalities or doing what you know is right, and fuck the social niceties?

It would be good if Saurfang would go away from his stupid "HONOR!" But even then going (demon) rampage after your new best friend challenged the Warchief and lost in a duel isn't his way.

He can challenge Sylvanas himself if he wants though.

[KrakHed]

It would be good if Saurfang would go away from his stupid "HONOR!" But even then going (demon) rampage after your new best friend challenged the Warchief and lost in a duel isn't his way.

He can challenge Sylvanas himself if he wants though.

He could also have her assassinated, and say he decided that was honorable after thinking it through. Under the basis of it being more dishonorable not to assassinate her. His current definition of honor is called out as hypocritical, so it seems to me that he's going to be changing it up some before the expansion is over.

[lummiuster]

Well its just one step towards the inevitable Sylvanas raid. I wonder if Saurfang will be bickering about honor instead of the elements just before the fight... and then ofcourse leaving US to fight with the shambling corpse.

I can't believe after Blizzard said many times that Sylvanas will not have the same faith as garrosh, we still have extreme low IQ people who think it will still happen.

[Makabreska]

But that wouldn't be honorable, thus breaking his entire character arc.

Once again, he would not care. Zappy represents some of the best Thrall Horde qualities, and is a hope for Saurfang for a better Horde in the future. If Sylvanas would kill Zekhan, he would go ABSOLUTELY bonkers.

[Hubbl3]

He could also have her assassinated, and say he decided that was honorable after thinking it through. Under the basis of it being more dishonorable not to assassinate her. His current definition of honor is called out as hypocritical, so it seems to me that he's going to be changing it up some before the expansion is over.

Challenging the Warchief you disagree with in a bloody duel until death is the most Orc-honor-thingy ever. He is called out for abandoning the Horde, getting countless Horde soldiers killed for not obeying the Warchief and still not challenging the Warchief.

Orgrim wasn't satisfied with Blackhand. But instead of going emo he picked up his Hammer, challenged Blackhand, killed him, and lead the Horde into the future. Something a true Orc would do.

For all I care we can dispose of Sylvanas as Warchief in a duel which she loses. Way better than any rebellion or whatever the Alliance wants.

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Once again, he would not care. Zappy represents some of the best Thrall Horde qualities, and is a hope for Saurfang for a better Horde in the future. If Sylvanas would kill Zekhan, he would go ABSOLUTELY bonkers.

Once again, that wouldn't make him a better character. But if Blizz decides to write it that way what are we going to do anyway?

[Super Dickmann]

Once again, that wouldn't make him a better character. But if Blizz decides to write it that way what are we going to do anyway?

Call them hacks on the internet and continue buying their product.

[Hubbl3]

Call them hacks on the internet and continue buying their product.

IDK, I wanted to get the CE of BFA but ultimately cancelled my order. So while I might still play this game for now I'm not interested in getting any additional things anymore, because fuck this.

[crazyfool319]

Well its just one step towards the inevitable Sylvanas raid. I wonder if Saurfang will be bickering about honor instead of the elements just before the fight... and then ofcourse leaving US to fight with the shambling corpse.

Id say its going the opposite way. If anything it will make the horde rally around her even more. The most likely replacement for her as leader of the horde is an alliance tool. Blizz isnt gonna retread garrosh. Sylvanas will eventually get her redemption arc. It will be closer to a retread of Illidan or Kerrigan.