From the best World of Warcraft, to... This.

[Pua]

This is a repeat from another post, but it's worth repeating.

The reason I tend to look at the best development of the original World of Warcraft as 'half of Wrath' is because the pinnacle of the game's design was when Ulduar launched. Not only was it worthwhile in terms of raiding play, it had legitimate lore importance and was built to see the variety of class design be utilised via means that had never been seen previously. This was also when the team that had effectively built the game to that point was moved on, and a new group (essentially the current group) took over.

Wrath didn't start with group finder, it's only 'weakness' was Naxxramas; which ended up being the most popular raid the game had seen to that point, in terms of participation. The greatest single encounter ever designed, in my opinion, was Sartharion - built by Scott Mercer as a means of testing how hard modes can work prior to its zenith when Ulduar opened. Don't forget that specialised professions still existed at the start of Wrath, something arguably at its best during Outland, and something that was then utterly abandoned when the new team, led by Greg Street (who had operated during Wrath's beta), delivered the wonderful, the amazing, the fabulous...

Trial of the Crusader.

Difficulty modes were created, rather than using a scaling system. Gear inflation and deprecation started to get worse. Specialised professions were abandoned. Multiple classes started to get grossly simplified. Scaling encounters and hard modes were abandoned. The communal aspects of progression started to be heavily lightened. Loot itemisation started to be collapsed.

The dungeon finder was added.

It's relatively clear that the overwhelming majority of the first team, that got us to Ulduar and arguably would have been there for Icecrown, weren't replaced with a group that viewed things the way they did. Kaplan and Chilton were replaced by the likes of Nervigg and Zierhut. Scott Mercer was replaced by Ion Hazzikostas. Greg Street took charge, supported by the likes of Corey Stockton.

I'm not arguing that Wrath was hardcore, but my stance is that it was as casual as it ever needed to get. As an expansion, it was a huge success so, for some reason, the new design team thought utterly destroying the raid community (particularly server-PuG wise) moving into Cataclysm was the right idea. You cannot build a certain community, re-create their game in the opposite direction, and expect them all to stick with it.

Remember Greg Street's "Wow, dungeons are hard!" post?

Remember how long it took before they were all gutted in difficulty?

The problem was considered so severe, and so dismantling of the group PvE community, that LFR was created for tier 13.

Ultimately, this is part of what drives the desire for Classic World of Warcraft. It's why I can't wait to see it. It's not pure nostalgia, it's the understanding that the game was originally built to be rewarding, not just to throw around rewards. This difference is so subtle, but so important. Class uniqueness, player options, system depth and rewarding challenges were the norm, rather than (at best) the last rung of a seemingly endless settings ladder. For crying out loud, raids now have LFR, Normal, Heroic, Mythic and Additional settings. Dungeons have Levelling, Level Cap, Heroic, Mythic and Mythic+.

From one setting, with a scaling difficulty that was pinnacled by a single encounter in the Obsidium Sanctum, to five settings across the board. It's ludicrous, needless, and indicative of a design collective that just doesn't have the talent that their predecessors had, and hopes that showering people in rewards will be enough of a dopamine casino to keep people around when they don't have buddies that will.

I get lots of people will disagree, say I'm wrong, or troll what I'm saying. I'm just trying to be honest, tell you what I consider the most important aspects, and why I think Classic is what our community finally needs. Sure, it'll see a nosedive after the initial spike, but it'll then stabilise and steadily grow to a reasonable plateau.

I can't wait.

[Deleted]

I agree but 90% of the playerbase is bad so they have to cater to them from a business standpoint, its been so long that casuals have been rewarded that they can never imagine anything else but this theme park design

[fengosa]

The games not going back to where it was 10 years ago...MoP and Legion were both better expansions than wrath anyways.

[Azerate]

Oh boi another one of these.

Things you listed as the worst shit ever are the things still keeping this game afloat and making it enjoyable to a wider audience. Don't like it, don't play it.

[Slowpoke is a Gamer]

Sounds like you should campaign for more legacy servers after Classic, then.

[Deleted]

Oh boi another one of these.

Things you listed as the worst shit ever are the things still keeping this game afloat and making it enjoyable to a wider audience. Don't like it, don't play it.

Wider audience = People who couldn't achieve anything in the earlier expansions and now like being spoon fed and will vehemently defend the current version of WoW as to not hurt their own fragile ego

[NutellaCrepe]

O k t h e n

- - - Updated - - -

Wider audience = People who couldn't achieve anything in the earlier expansions and now like being spoon fed and will vehemently defend the current version of WoW as to not hurt their own fragile ego

But why does that tilt you?

[Schattenlied]

MoP and Legion were both better expansions than wrath anyways.

110% opinion. As far as I'm concerned Legion is one of WoW's worst expansions. Class design is the single most important thing in a game like this, and Legion's was an absolute fucking mess, BFA's isn't much better.

[Deleted]

The games not going back to where it was 10 years ago...MoP and Legion were both better expansions than wrath anyways.

Yet somehow WoTLK, by many considered the last expansion done in the "old ways" holds the record number of active subscriptions and does that by a difference of millions compared to MoP and Legion (and dont get me wrong, I absolutely loved MoP). You cant contribute that to the arthas theme alone. There was definitely something more appealing to more standard MMO's back then and a huge portion of that appeal could translate to the current version of the game as well if certain things were changed.

[LordCowz]

I've been playing since vanilla and Wrath was where I did my most hardcore raiding. I had one of the first Twilight Drakes on our server, and I believe our guild would have had one of the first Invincibles as well had they not broken down due to personal crap. I remember raiding hours a night for 4+ nights a week, farming mats between etc. I was in college so i could get away with it.
I'm happier now that I'm a seriously casual LFR loser barely making a token's worth of gold a month. I've got a real job. I've got kids. I grew up and I'm just really happy that the game is still going, that the lore is still deep, and even if the story gets predictable, it's still being told. And if I had to wager, I would guess that my situation is the majority of the playerbase. Even if it was just 51%, that's still a majority.

I remember sitting at Krasus' Landing on my huge purple e-pen feeling like the big dick in the locker room. Nowadays, anyone with 10 minutes to spare can easily snag both the Twilight and Black drakes without a hassle. Does that somehow make mine less purple? Or make me forget the memory of having to run clear across the rock island to taunt Sartharion before he breathed on the raid because the MT ate shit the moment the third drake died? No it does not.

I'll never understand the hardcore raiders and M+ people bitching and moaning because other people get similar gear. If it was really that easy to get it, why not just do what they're doing and skip on the hardcore shit. Raid mythic because you like raiding mythic. Push keys because you like pushing keys. If you seriously only want it to look cool and show off, well that's just too bad because eventually it's all going to be vendor trash garbage. And if your personal worth and satisfaction comes from showing off Mythic sets in Zuldazar/Boralas and dumping on LFR people for being casual scrubs then I would suggest looking inward, taking a step back, and talking to a real person about it. Because that sounds sad.

[Audrenalyn]

Tbh, I'm an altoholic, and I have a hard time finding something I enjoy playing throughout an entire tier, so I love being spoonfed gear so that I can bring an alt to raid and not hinder the rest of my team.

[tacoloco]

Wider audience = People who couldn't achieve anything in the earlier expansions and now like being spoon fed and will vehemently defend the current version of WoW as to not hurt their own fragile ego

Please. You're just projecting your failures and insecurities.

[Deleted]

Please. You're just projecting your failures and insecurities.

Didn't mean to upset you dude, good luck in LFR!

[Slowpoke is a Gamer]

Yet somehow WoTLK, by many considered the last expansion done in the "old ways" holds the record number of active subscriptions and does that by a difference of millions compared to MoP and Legion (and dont get me wrong, I absolutely loved MoP). You cant contribute that to the arthas theme alone. There was definitely something more appealing to more standard MMO's back then and a huge portion of that appeal could translate to the current version of the game as well if certain things were changed.

The irony is Wrath wasn't the "old ways" at all. Wrath did away with attunements, Wrath added 10 man raiding, Wrath made rep grinding easier, Wrath let you get flight before even capping out.

Maybe, just maybe mind you, the problem was after 6 years of playing one game a lot of people got bored. Or maybe it has something to do with a certain MOBA releasing in 2009 and popping the MMO Bubble.

Also if we wanna talk the "old ways" drawing players back. They made an MMO back in 2014 based around the "old ways." Attunements, huge raids, all that jazz. It's shutting down in November. Its name was Wildstar.

[Deleted]

Look i agree that raids should only have one difficulty.

But i dislike drama dissertations.

[hulkgor]

What an original rant!

[Malikath]

But why does that tilt you?

because the game is shit now that it's made for retards.

[Audrenalyn]

because the game is shit now that it's made for retards.

Ooooo, do you buy your AOTCs before or after you say the game is catered to retards?

[Slowpoke is a Gamer]

because the game is shit now that it's made for retards.

My what a well-balanced and thought out opinion.

[Malikath]

My what a well-balanced and thought out opinion.

shame I can't say same the same about any of yours.

i mean, it's not as if class balance is worse now then BC with almost 3/4 of the current specs being nonviable for PvE or PvP.

but go on, im sure there's SOMETHING you're good at if you can't manage to understand a simple game made for children with learning disabilities.