From the best World of Warcraft, to... This.

[Tekkommo]

It was easy for already experienced raiders, but not for the new demographic it was aimed at. That was the key aspect of it that worked.

For me, the greatest individual raid encounter ever created was in tier 7 and that was the Obsidium Sanctum. A single encounter, with four settings, showed what can be done with decent designers who then developed that ethos into Ulduar. Scott Mercer showed how difficulty can scale, without needing multiple instances, and those who followed him simply didn’t have the talent to recreate it.

Instead, a half-the-size raiding community now gets four difficulty settings when we already know that one is enough.

Wrath was the pinnacle in raid design, with Naxxramas being part of that. We, as players, just need to better grasp the intent.

Greatest encounter? Hahahaha

3 drakes was still pretty easy and simple overall.

Pinnacle of raid design? Hahahaha, majority of Ulduar fights were simple and boring, including their hard modes. Keep those glasses on, also Naxx was a rehashed raid from vanilla, with nothing new added and abilities reduced in difficulty, for example the dance fight was slower in WotLK.

[Enosh]

Wildstar
#hardcore

[Deleted]

The games not going back to where it was 10 years ago...MoP and Legion were both better expansions than wrath anyways.

Not even close. The numbers speak for themselves. The main reason TBC and wotlk were so successful was because pvp was good back then (apart from the odd season like s5). I know it's heresy on this site but the fact of the matter is that pvp drove subscription numbers, far more people subbed to do 3v3 arena than ever did raiding. The whole reason LFR was introduced was because hardly anyone was seeing the raid content that blizzard were wasting so much time making, when they should have woken up and invested resources in arena instead, like a spectator mode.

From cata onwards pvp was pretty much garbage.

[Tradu]

It's almost like there's no clear split between 'old wow' and 'new wow' and there was an evolution that took place over several expansions.

I'd say there have been 3 main "eras" of WoW, in terms of design and focus. Vanilla/TBC with a more oldschool, strongly RPG focus. Wrath/Cata/MoP/WoD progressively going away from some of the more annoying RPG aspects in favor of QoL and depth in gameplay rather than preparation. And then Legion/BfA where keeping people playing through long-term character power progression is the focus, at the cost of gameplay.
You could arguably split the Wrath through WoD era into 2, with Wrath/Cata still being closer to the RPG side and MoP/WoD being more on the combat gameplay side.

[Sencha]

110% opinion. As far as I'm concerned Legion is one of WoW's worst expansions. Class design is the single most important thing in a game like this, and Legion's was an absolute fucking mess, BFA's isn't much better.

Fully agree with this.

I don't know why people praise Legion, it's the worst expansion after BfA (which is just a reskinned Legion btw).

[Tradu]

110% opinion. As far as I'm concerned Legion is one of WoW's worst expansions. Class design is the single most important thing in a game like this, and Legion's was an absolute fucking mess, BFA's isn't much better.

I'd even argue BfA's is worse, because there's no artifacts/legendaries/tier to prop it up, just azerite which has been and still is a dumpster fire.

[aarro]

I laugh at all these kinds of threads! You can argue all you like about this & that being WoW's problem but the MAIN PROBLEM that WoW has is the community! I personally can't wait for classic to come out so all the cry baby elitests jump to classic and stay there.

[Kesandri]

Lots of interesting points! How about a viewpoint from the other side of the coin.

I agree with a bunch of you the game is much more simplified and faster paced (gearwise etc) than it ever was, anyone who says differently imo is a little weird to say the least! (if they truly played wow back in the day). I am one of those (now seemingly rarer!) players who have been around since day 1 and have first hand seen every expansion and the changes they made along the way.

The point I would like to make is this, I was 22 and my partner 21 when we started, we played a LOT back in the day, 6 days a week raiding etc in vanilla/tbc down to 3/4 in wotlk/cata, we were very much hardcore time wise until something happened, we moved into our own place, had kids etc etc.
These days I am now 36, I'm still playing (raiding 2 days a week), my partner very casually. There is no chance on earth I would ever have the time to play this game for more than I do now, so if the game required the time it did in the past to play/raid/contend etc then I would simply have to stop. I also strongly believe that people who are probably in the same boat as me do not even bother posting/reading about it on forums like these anymore.

For every player that chooses to dislike the angle the game went in there are possibly others who very much welcome it.
Also please not how I have not at any point stated how it 'is' but just how I think it might be


(On a smaller note I also think its worth reminding people the game is 14 years old now! Just look at how the world has changed since 2004 and the gaming industry as a whole has also changed)

[alturic]

Lots of interesting points! How about a viewpoint from the other side of the coin.

I agree with a bunch of you the game is much more simplified and faster paced (gearwise etc) than it ever was, anyone who says differently imo is a little weird to say the least! (if they truly played wow back in the day). I am one of those (now seemingly rarer!) players who have been around since day 1 and have first hand seen every expansion and the changes they made along the way.

The point I would like to make is this, I was 22 and my partner 21 when we started, we played a LOT back in the day, 6 days a week raiding etc in vanilla/tbc down to 3/4 in wotlk/cata, we were very much hardcore time wise until something happened, we moved into our own place, had kids etc etc.
These days I am now 36, I'm still playing (raiding 2 days a week), my partner very casually. There is no chance on earth I would ever have the time to play this game for more than I do now, so if the game required the time it did in the past to play/raid/contend etc then I would simply have to stop. I also strongly believe that people who are probably in the same boat as me do not even bother posting/reading about it on forums like these anymore.

For every player that chooses to dislike the angle the game went in there are possibly others who very much welcome it.
Also please not how I have not at any point stated how it 'is' but just how I think it might be


(On a smaller note I also think its worth reminding people the game is 14 years old now! Just look at how the world has changed since 2004 and the gaming industry as a whole has also changed)

Well, first, even back in vanilla, then BC, then LK, then Cata, you had people "growing up" (as in age/school/career), so I can't fully get behind that logic. Personally, WoW tanked right after Firelands for me. I quit the day LFR/Dragon Soul came out and seen they turned this into the console gamer's game. I'd get the urge to come back and see my favorite game every ~10 months, log out after 10 minutes of sitting in a city. I'd buy every expansion (except Legion, didn't come back at all during Legion), level to max, and then be done within the first month. I despise a few of the systems they've introduced since such as Diablo itemization, LFR, Mythic+, etc. The point is, you (and I, and anyone else) can easily put aside 4 hours a day for raiding/prepping, but at least in my case, a.) it's not as fun as it once was, but more-so b.) at least if you have a career/business there's so much more tangible things we can do with our time.

However, isn't this basically saying the current generation of player grew up in the #SpecialSnowflake (and other #SJWMovement) decade, which is why they want/like/expect everything to be spoon fed? Everyone has to be equal? Turn on, collect shinies?

They are so ingrained in the mentality of you deserve something even if you are middle-of-the-pack (or worse, below), that's what they expect? They grew up in the "console era" (yes, I know consoles were around when we were both in our 20s) where you could turn it on, collect shinies, and turn it off?

TLDR: People were always "growing up", today's mainstream player is "different". Today's generation doesn't want to put effort into anything. This is literally proven, just look at the amount of teens/early-20's and what they "do" and where they "are" in life. It's nothing like it was when we were teens/early-20's and even *we* were nothing like what teens/early-20's were in the 70's and 80's. FFS, teens/early-20's nowadays will call off work because they want to have a kegger/smoke a bowl/go to the movies with friends instead working their shift. That kind of shit didn't happen when we were younger, let alone in prior generations.

- - - Updated - - -

I laugh at all these kinds of threads! You can argue all you like about this & that being WoW's problem but the MAIN PROBLEM that WoW has is the community! I personally can't wait for classic to come out so all the cry baby elitests jump to classic and stay there.

Yeahhh! #ShouldntHaveToWorkForSomething #GimmeDemEpics #EveryoneEqual

[Deleted]

Times change. I used to play games fanatically, now I need to take care of myself and my partner, so I don't have time to play more than 3-4 hours a day if I am lucky. Would the Blizzard not make the WoW more friendly to people like me I would have already moved on to another game. It is simple as that. But since they allow me to play and even raid heroics/mythics and mythic+10 and higher even when spending like 12 hours a week is great for me.

You should accept that the majority of people have no time to dwell in the past. Accept this fact and go along with it, or find another game. I did, and should WoW fail to provide a reasonable amount of fun to me in reasonable amount of time I will just move on without much QQ.

[Pua]

You are welcome to keep thinking that if it makes you feel better.

It doesn't really make me feel one way or another. It simply reminds me that some people understand how factual-based assessments work, and that the overwhelming majority of people on this forum (of which you, sadly, happen to be one) are wholly incapable of doing it.

Greatest encounter? Hahahaha

3 drakes was still pretty easy and simple overall.

Pinnacle of raid design? Hahahaha, majority of Ulduar fights were simple and boring, including their hard modes. Keep those glasses on, also Naxx was a rehashed raid from vanilla, with nothing new added and abilities reduced in difficulty, for example the dance fight was slower in WotLK.

To repeat my response that's above yours:

The overwhelming majority can't understand how assessments, based on facts, are actually built.

It was an extremely small minority of players that completed Sartharion 3D prior to outgearing it and rushing the DPS requirement. The 10-man version was broken, as was admitted by the designers, but arguing that it was "pretty easy and simple overall" is completely ignoring the actual percentage of completion, while falsely assuming that your experience, assuming you're being honest, was common. It wasn't. Therefore, it wasn't "easy and simple" when statistics are applied.

As for my suggestion of it being the pinnacle of raid design, that's because it was the absolute first of its kind and it managed to use a single encounter that was built around four difficulties. There was nothing, not a single encounter, that was like it prior to Sartharion, and there's only been one encounter of it since. Once the new team took over post Ulduar, they essentially argued that hard modes were much too difficult and that they could only abandon a design iteration that... Well, that had already been achieved. In other words, their argument was already proven to be wrong by Ulduar.

This is factual.

Your next claim, of course, is also objectively incorrect. Ulduar fights weren't "simple and boring", given that the changes for Flame Leviathan, XT-002, the Iron Council, Thorim, Freya, Mimiron and Yogg-Saron (x4) were all quite dramatic with regard to the encounter. What percentage completed Yogg-Saron at his hardest difficulty? How many managed to defeat Algalon, despite being relatively simple in comparison, but demanding extremely high levels of performance in order to defeat him?

Look, I get it. You want to argue that the experience was different for you. That's fine, and your personal experience is perfectly valid for you.

But if you want to argue the opposite of facts, just because you're disagreeable, then you're utterly failing to grasp reality. Even your view of Naxxramas is ignorant of the reality that was impacted by differences in class design.

[Cracked]

Yet somehow WoTLK, by many considered the last expansion done in the "old ways" holds the record number of active subscriptions and does that by a difference of millions compared to MoP and Legion (and dont get me wrong, I absolutely loved MoP). You cant contribute that to the arthas theme alone. There was definitely something more appealing to more standard MMO's back then and a huge portion of that appeal could translate to the current version of the game as well if certain things were changed.

Except wotlk is what caused the exodus of cataclysm. It wasn't that cataclysm was bad, it was that wotlk made so many changes towards the casuals that came in. Wotlk is where it fell apart, cataclysm is where it manifested itself.

[Deleted]

Times change. I used to play games fanatically, now I need to take care of myself and my partner, so I don't have time to play more than 3-4 hours a day if I am lucky. Would the Blizzard not make the WoW more friendly to people like me I would have already moved on to another game. It is simple as that. But since they allow me to play and even raid heroics/mythics and mythic+10 and higher even when spending like 12 hours a week is great for me.

You should accept that the majority of people have no time to dwell in the past. Accept this fact and go along with it, or find another game. I did, and should WoW fail to provide a reasonable amount of fun to me in reasonable amount of time I will just move on without much QQ.

Sorry mate but you are minority. Majoryti of players alredy quit BFA becouse majority of players is not interested in mythic+ or heroic raiding. And those people arledy finished their progression in LFR and mythic 0 dungeons. You might think you are majority but sorry mate you are not. Another thing is. If you really dont have time to put enough effort you should really not expect to get and see everything in the game and just accept fact you need to put more effort. I am causal. I quit high end raiding in WoD and i can tell you that i amn not interested playing current version of game more than 1 month. Becouse thats exact amounth of time for me to finish entire game. I belong into majority of players and i can tell you we have alredy quit wow. But i cant totaly wait to play classic and level up for months. I dont expect getting into naxx or other raids but i dont care. I will accept fact i have to put more effort and i qont quit game beocuse of it. Since i can finish current game in 1 month i have no reason to keep playing the game so i quit.

[mvaliz]

Ultimately, this is part of what drives the desire for Classic World of Warcraft. It's why I can't wait to see it. It's not pure nostalgia, it's the understanding that the game was originally built to be rewarding, not just to throw around rewards. .

...and in under 3 months, I'm betting 2/3rds of the audience stops playing the classic servers.

Because everything you wrote there was Cataclysm. Even blizzard (those that remained on the staff at that time) said themselves "We thought the players would step up. What we discovered is that they didn't and simply went to play something else". What you find "Rewarding" is not "Rewarding" for the majority of players - it's the fallacy of the hardcore player to believe that harder challenges = more rewarding experience for everybody.

I know - cus I used to think like that from my day-1 vanilla days. Unlike you, however, I learned a different lesson from the Dungeon Finder when it was introduced in WoW. I learned that you don't need to meet a hard-hitting challenge to have fun.

Why do people pretend it has to be one or the other? Both can exist. The game is not designed to make people hardcore players. The game is supposed to be designed for multiple gameplay styles.

So, be grateful - you'll get your "rewarding" experience gameplay style, just don't expect the majority of WoW's population to stand alongside you, or at least until the novelty wears off - nor is it wrong that they don't find what you find fun to be not-fun.

[Mirishka]

Oh boi another one of these.

Things you listed as the worst shit ever are the things still keeping this game afloat and making it enjoyable to a wider audience. Don't like it, don't play it.

You ask too much of people like the OP. They can't live with themselves if they don't bitch about the game.

[DesMephisto]

This is a repeat from another post, but it's worth repeating.

The reason I tend to look at the best development of the original World of Warcraft as 'half of Wrath' is because the pinnacle of the game's design was when Ulduar launched. Not only was it worthwhile in terms of raiding play, it had legitimate lore importance and was built to see the variety of class design be utilised via means that had never been seen previously. This was also when the team that had effectively built the game to that point was moved on, and a new group (essentially the current group) took over.

Wrath didn't start with group finder, it's only 'weakness' was Naxxramas; which ended up being the most popular raid the game had seen to that point, in terms of participation. The greatest single encounter ever designed, in my opinion, was Sartharion - built by Scott Mercer as a means of testing how hard modes can work prior to its zenith when Ulduar opened. Don't forget that specialised professions still existed at the start of Wrath, something arguably at its best during Outland, and something that was then utterly abandoned when the new team, led by Greg Street (who had operated during Wrath's beta), delivered the wonderful, the amazing, the fabulous...

Trial of the Crusader.

Difficulty modes were created, rather than using a scaling system. Gear inflation and deprecation started to get worse. Specialised professions were abandoned. Multiple classes started to get grossly simplified. Scaling encounters and hard modes were abandoned. The communal aspects of progression started to be heavily lightened. Loot itemisation started to be collapsed.

The dungeon finder was added.

It's relatively clear that the overwhelming majority of the first team, that got us to Ulduar and arguably would have been there for Icecrown, weren't replaced with a group that viewed things the way they did. Kaplan and Chilton were replaced by the likes of Nervigg and Zierhut. Scott Mercer was replaced by Ion Hazzikostas. Greg Street took charge, supported by the likes of Corey Stockton.

I'm not arguing that Wrath was hardcore, but my stance is that it was as casual as it ever needed to get. As an expansion, it was a huge success so, for some reason, the new design team thought utterly destroying the raid community (particularly server-PuG wise) moving into Cataclysm was the right idea. You cannot build a certain community, re-create their game in the opposite direction, and expect them all to stick with it.

Remember Greg Street's "Wow, dungeons are hard!" post?

Remember how long it took before they were all gutted in difficulty?

The problem was considered so severe, and so dismantling of the group PvE community, that LFR was created for tier 13.

Ultimately, this is part of what drives the desire for Classic World of Warcraft. It's why I can't wait to see it. It's not pure nostalgia, it's the understanding that the game was originally built to be rewarding, not just to throw around rewards. This difference is so subtle, but so important. Class uniqueness, player options, system depth and rewarding challenges were the norm, rather than (at best) the last rung of a seemingly endless settings ladder. For crying out loud, raids now have LFR, Normal, Heroic, Mythic and Additional settings. Dungeons have Levelling, Level Cap, Heroic, Mythic and Mythic+.

From one setting, with a scaling difficulty that was pinnacled by a single encounter in the Obsidium Sanctum, to five settings across the board. It's ludicrous, needless, and indicative of a design collective that just doesn't have the talent that their predecessors had, and hopes that showering people in rewards will be enough of a dopamine casino to keep people around when they don't have buddies that will.

I get lots of people will disagree, say I'm wrong, or troll what I'm saying. I'm just trying to be honest, tell you what I consider the most important aspects, and why I think Classic is what our community finally needs. Sure, it'll see a nosedive after the initial spike, but it'll then stabilise and steadily grow to a reasonable plateau.

I can't wait.

"to be rewarding" yeah, cata dungeons were not rewarding.

[mvaliz]

You ask too much of people like the OP. They can't live with themselves if they don't bitch about the game.

I tend to believe it's the classic form of prejudice. Any prejudice (racism, sexism, classism, elitism, ect...) is drawn back to one root concept, the ability to say to yourself "The one good thing about me is that I'm not one of THEM!"

That's really what the OP is saying right now. It's not about trying to push any ideology, it's him trying to make himself feel superior by basically calling everybody else who enjoy what he doesn't a pussy.

- - - Updated - - -

Except wotlk is what caused the exodus of cataclysm. It wasn't that cataclysm was bad, it was that wotlk made so many changes towards the casuals that came in. Wotlk is where it fell apart, cataclysm is where it manifested itself.

...........did you really just suggest that a game bringing in millions of players and making them happy is a BAD THING!? o_O

Here's the deal - hardcore gaming is NOT enjoyed by the majority. I said that earlier and will always keep saying it - it's OK that you have both to exist simultaneously. There's no need to choose one or the other.

That's where Cata FAILED... again... FAILED. It tried regressing to an outdated idea of making the game harder-core like Vanilla - exactly the same way D3 initially failed when people were pissed to find out the game was only 12 hours long and didn't understand the idea of "now try hard mode" because that concept of game design was abandoned over a decade ago (The Auction House, of course, is it's own separate reason on top of the pile-o-shit. It's not just one reason. ;P). This is why Blizz went with 25 man dungeons from 40 to allow a more accessible experience/access and back in vanilla when that one game reporter questioned Blizz why they were designing a raid zone (Naxramas) for less than 1% of their entire audience.

Dude, you have your own slice of pie - enjoy it while others enjoy their slice of pie with whip cream and a cherry on top. The game's purpose is not to make players enjoy what you enjoy. The game's purpose is not to turn a newbie into a hardcore elitist. The game's purpose is to HAVE FUN THE WAY YOU CHOOSE TO HAVE FUN.

[Deleted]

I agree but 90% of the playerbase is bad so they have to cater to them from a business standpoint, its been so long that casuals have been rewarded that they can never imagine anything else but this theme park design

Thats not true and such arguments mostly come from casual players, like you?
Runing m+ on 10+ isnt casual, it’s challenging and rewards better gear then all the wq world boss casual stuff.
Also mythic uldir is pretty hard for a first addon raid tier.

I dont see a theme park here or that blizzard is doing easy stuff for all the casuals?!?!?!

[Austilias]

BfA is the most terrible expansion I've experienced to date. I'm looking forward to Classic.

If they do a TBC/WOTLK reboot? Even better, but at this point I'll take what I can get.

[RobertMugabe]

110% opinion. As far as I'm concerned Legion is one of WoW's worst expansions. Class design is the single most important thing in a game like this, and Legion's was an absolute fucking mess, BFA's isn't much better.

IMHO the only good Thing about legion were Suramar and the karazhan dungeon. Those were also the only parts of the game that kinda felt like an RPG... the rest of the Expansion felt nothing like WoW or an MMORPG, but like an esports game that's made for streamers.

BfA is just doing the same, but offers way less and Things like class balance are even worse.