Saurfang is an SI:7/Alliance asset

[Aresk]

I exaggerated the Vindicaar's impact a bit, but it would remain a critical war asset which would have changed the course of the operation for sure. If nothing else, it is an unparalleled scouting and transportation tool, which directly counters the main way the Horde won, via Saurfang's surprise attack which did not allow the Alliance time to redeploy. Plus, these Warframes have been shown to vaporize Legion star destroyers. I can't imagine the Horde's shirtless armies and wooden catapult faring very well against them. Plus Cenarius alone would be difficult to face, the Horde doesn't have a demon-boosted Grom this time around.

If ten or more Horde members can defeat Cenarius when he has the power of the Nightmare behind him, I don't think he'll be the same potent obstacle he was back in Ashenvale during the orcs' lumber harvesting operations (granted, they no longer have the artifacts of Legion either). Honestly, I think the Alliance's greatest asset is Teldrassil: I can't imagine the remaining dragon aspects would look kindly upon the burning of a world tree, and Kalec has personal investment with Jaina. Given the Horde's history of conquest in Pandaria and the Zandalari's history with Lei Shen, I imagine the pandaren would favor confronting the Horde to a stalemate if this war reaches the shores of Pandaria. To an outside perspective, the Horde's actions are more hostile than the Alliance's, and Anduin is the kind of leader who could leverage that support. Now, I don't think the story will go that route (given anything remotely not pertaining to the factions has been forgotten, such as the Vindicaar), but I do think that the history of neutral factions would favor Alliance to the point of ending the war (I don't think the Horde would ever be destroyed fully by the Alliance or neutral factions, even if there were no gameplay reason that they couldn't be).

[Feanoro]

If ten or more Horde members can defeat Cenarius when he has the power of the Nightmare behind him

Let me beat the Hordies to saying game mechanics aren't canon. I get what you're saying, but be aware that will be used to dismiss everything else you say.

[Jastall]

If it weren't for the "on all fronts" line which muddies it a bit I would actually scribe to this entirely as the interpretation of those lines. I.e, that when they mean Alliance victory in a few weeks they're referring to Zandalar and Kul Tiras. It'd fit with the mention of Alliance victory being in he context of discussions on their next moves, be it Genn and Anduin discussing pressing their advantage or Sylvanas positing a way to turn things around with Derek and Ashvane, which have no real applicability outside the new continent conflict. We know for a fact that the Horde is definitely not losing in weeks in Kalimdor considering they hold all the North save a now contested Warfront and this is a cause of complaint for the night elves and EK is in limbo. So from this I'm reading this line as meaning that in a few weeks if things continue as they are the Alliance will win in the new continents and secure naval dominance, basically ensuring the isolation and slow defeat of the Horde elsewhere.

In terms of assets, the Cenarion Circle is joining in as of the new patch, so at least their neutrality is being set aside a bit with Thisalee Crow joining the Alliance and so on. The Vindicaar being absent is still conspicuous but that ship has sailed at least. We'll file it under the same subsection as Nightborne telemancy or the loa not helping Zandalar during the siege directly and only using champions.

Finally, as regards the feeling of victory, we're in a weird position where no side is satisfied, since the Alliance feel like their win is downplayed and even a clear victory like Zandalar where they have two people wounded whereas Horde lose more than half the Zandalari fleet and the King dies is not just framed as having some kind of high cost but also is denied from being capitalized on because Jaina and Anduin are afraid it'll hurt the trolls feelings. In turn, as this thread demonstrates, while the Horde's condition is more ambiguous than it at first appears, we're also basically set on the path to Mists 2.0 and the Burning of Teldrassil didn't really feel like a win, even though the War of Thorns was provably effective, so both sides feel shafted.

Oh, of course no side is satisfied. That's a big part of why I loathe the faction war as written by Blizzard, there's no satisfaction to be had when no one can definitely win nor lose and they can't write consistent characters to save their life, thus the war ends up being a random series of blunders and dick moves until the story calls off the hostilities. Just like in Mists, the Horde didn't like having the Warchief become Hitler and raiding their capital, and the Alliance didn't like that they had literally nothing to show for their victory as Varian let the red team off the hook with a slap on the wrist. It's like a dumb version of Game of Thrones where everyone is either a Ned or a Joffrey. I'd rather have a Legion-esque story that is basically a Marvel movie with no pretense at being anything else but actually pulls it off somewhat.

I'm just anticipating what kind of asspull puts the Horde back on top, or even ground. Azshara deciding to rekt the Kul'tiran fleet is the easiest option of course. The story seems to imply Sylvanas has a plan, but beyond Derek we know nothing, and while he would get under the Proudmoore's skin I fail to see how he could possibly be decisive unless they hit the Alliance with a serious stupid bat yet again and they decide to sacrifice the entire fleet to try and save him.

@Aresk the heroes did have assistance from Malfurion and had their powers magnified by Artifacts. Plus Cenarius wouldn't be alone this time; imagine a tag team of him + Malfurion in the heart of NE territory. Pretty much nothing short of a Horde raid + Sylvanas has a ghost of a chance and even then it's a long shot.

[Dagoth Ur]

Why cut him ? Anduin making friends like baine shows how glorious he is. And befriending "warchief" of opposite faction...now that is some dank greatness.

They should double down on stuff like this and let him befriend Sargeras too.

End game would be something like Azeroth carrying Anduin on her shoulder, while holding hands with Sargeras, who of course carries Baine on his shoulder. Together they charge in to effortlessly cleave the Void lords and save the universe. After the battle, Baine and Anduin become constallation known as "Friends" to remind people of Azeroth of the true values they should cherish and live by. The end this franchise deserves.

[Super Dickmann]

Oh, of course no side is satisfied. That's a big part of why I loathe the faction war as written by Blizzard, there's no satisfaction to be had when no one can definitely win nor lose and they can't write consistent characters to save their life, thus the war ends up being a random series of blunders and dick moves until the story calls off the hostilities. Just like in Mists, the Horde didn't like having the Warchief become Hitler and raiding their capital, and the Alliance didn't like that they had literally nothing to show for their victory as Varian let the red team off the hook with a slap on the wrist. It's like a dumb version of Game of Thrones where everyone is either a Ned or a Joffrey. I'd rather have a Legion-esque story that is basically a Marvel movie with no pretense at being anything else but actually pulls it off somewhat.

It's especially infuriating because they can do these mid-tier faction conflicts well. Cataclysm was good, and Vanilla was as well because there at least it was proper racial objectives for each side clashing with other values. Say the dwarves' imperial directive and the tauren love for nature or the whole resource malarky in Cataclysm. By contrast here they gave the Horde the most complex, labyrinthine motivation available because despite teasing how they could easily be motivated in the promotional materials - i.e have Undercity happen first, they still decided that they couldn't bear to tarnish the God-King. Hence how we're left in this situation where no one except Golden is satisfied. The Alliance are denied any payback and victory for all the crimes against them whereas the Horde don't even get to sort themselves out this time, but have to have the Alliance do it for them then spare them out of the goodness of their hearts.

I'm just anticipating what kind of asspull puts the Horde back on top, or even ground. Azshara deciding to rekt the Kul'tiran fleet is the easiest option of course. The story seems to imply Sylvanas has a plan, but beyond Derek we know nothing, and while he would get under the Proudmoore's skin I fail to see how he could possibly be decisive unless they hit the Alliance with a serious stupid bat yet again and they decide to sacrifice the entire fleet to try and save him.

My impression is that both Ashvane and Derek are being recruited for their intel, one on the inside of Kul Tiras and still existing connections to the remains of the pirates, the other because of his knowledge of the Kul Tiran fleet. They will in some fashion bait Katherine out and use the opening to destroy large parts of the fleet. At some point during this both Derek and Ashvane will betray the Horde, because one will be reaccepted by his family and the other works for Azshara.

[Dagoth Ur]

You know, I've given this some thought lately, and I really hate to say this, but if we're getting rid of Sylvanas and they don't do anything to fix Saurfang, the "best" (Least worst, but still really bad) candidate for Warchief is Thrall.

I'm not happy about it, and I'd much prefer they build up someone new, but barring an unpredictable event like bringing Jorin Deadeye back and building him up over the course of an expansion + book, we're stuck with:
-Thrall
-Saurfang
-Eitrigg
-Lor'themar
-Baine
As viable Warchief contenders at the moment. I can't stress enough that none of them are good, but this is the hand we're working with.

At this point, I kinda wish they just do a short time skip and tie it in with some kind of world revamp. They've messed up majority of characters I've been invested in, so I wouldn't mind a soft cast reset like that.

Waking up one day to Orgrimmar full of new, young orcs, trolls and tauren who could potentially become story carriers for the Horde would be pretty cool. It would also be a good opportunity to bring over Outland orcs without dealing with actually bringing them over, which would probably be a bit too similar to Mag'har scenario concept wise. Deadeye could skip the whole "being newbie" part and immediately be a higher rank soldier within the Horde so he can immediately take part in the main story.

[Jastall]

It's especially infuriating because they can do these mid-tier faction conflicts well. Cataclysm was good, and Vanilla was as well because there at least it was proper racial objectives for each side clashing with other values. Say the dwarves' imperial directive and the tauren love for nature or the whole resource malarky in Cataclysm. By contrast here they gave the Horde the most complex, labyrinthine motivation available because despite teasing how they could easily be motivated in the promotional materials - i.e have Undercity happen first, they still decided that they couldn't bear to tarnish the God-King. Hence how we're left in this situation where no one except Golden is satisfied. The Alliance are denied any payback and victory for all the crimes against them whereas the Horde don't even get to sort themselves out this time, but have to have the Alliance do it for them then spare them out of the goodness of their hearts.



My impression is that both Ashvane and Derek are being recruited for their intel, one on the inside of Kul Tiras and still existing connections to the remains of the pirates, the other because of his knowledge of the Kul Tiran fleet. They will in some fashion bait Katherine out and use the opening to destroy large parts of the fleet. At some point during this both Derek and Ashvane will betray the Horde, because one will be reaccepted by his family and the other works for Azshara.

Oh, of course the setup is there for an actual, no-memes morally grey conflict. But that would require the Alliance not to be led by a literal saint and the Horde not to be led by a paranoid mass murderer too spicy for the freaking Lich King. But this is Warcraft, and we wouldn't want complex and believable characters. On of the off-chance they do happen (see: Genn or Lor'themar) it seems to stem more from neglect than from design.

[Super Dickmann]

Oh, of course the setup is there for an actual, no-memes morally grey conflict. But that would require the Alliance not to be led by a literal saint and the Horde not to be led by a paranoid mass murderer too spicy for the freaking Lich King. But this is Warcraft, and we wouldn't want complex and believable characters. On of the off-chance they do happen (see: Genn or Lor'themar) it seems to stem more from neglect than from design.

Genn and Jaina's legitimate grievances against an enemy that's shown no signs of humanity have been hastily peppered over to make this suitably black and white for all of us. I lay the blame more on Anduin's prominence than on Sylvanas, since she would not be necessary for this narrative if the Alliance were lead by a character who had even one (1) flaw, but at this point it's water under the bridge.

[Wildberry]

It's either they're planning a twist or Golden and company are so far off the reservation that they think the Horde dislikes its own faction and wouldn't side with Saurfang unless he, like Baine, were bringing peace with our glorious teenage leader.

I really doubt there's much of a twist here. They seem to really think that the playerbase will happily get behind Anduin for future stories. I don't know who they're talking to though, because even the "Faction war is dumb"-crowd seems to hate Anduin.

With regard to Saurfang proper, I'm honestly not surprised that they've botched how justified the rebellion looks. They seem to have learned from the criticism of their handling of Garrosh (Which is extremely annoying now that they're applying that lesson to Sylvanas Windrunner of all people). They likely realize that early BfA was too frontloaded with "Sylvanas is bad," and are pulling back in an attempt to show a descent into madness. But the legitimacy of Saurfang's rebellion is going to suffer from it.

Legitimacy aside though, just take this in a vacuum. Is there any Horde player who thinks this is cool? Who likes Saurfang more for this? The only defense of the situation we've seen is "maybe he doesn't know he's an Alliance pawn!!" As if that makes it better.

I love the "any help whatsoever automatically makes him Anduin's puppet" reasoning in this thread. As many times as Blizz has mashed the factions together to face the Big Bad, it's somehow a surprise that Shaw, Saurfang himself, Lich Queen, and pretty much everyone understands that Saurfang loose would cause her problems. What, should Shaw have put a battalion of red shirts there for him to cleave down, roaring zug zug, mothaf***ers?

I've seen this sort of reasoning posted countless times in this thread, that's not the case. Nobody's asking for Saurfang to mow down Alliance guards on his prison break. We're just asking for him to sneak out on his own. Maybe knock a guard or two unconscious. That's it.

It's not a tall order, it's not unreasonable. Involving the Alliance with Saurfang's escape almost irreversibly taints the character, and that's something we can't have if they're positioning the guy to be Warchief. We're entitled to better after going through Warchiefs so often.

Vol'jin dying was BS, and appointing Sylv was a braindead move that has completely blown up the Horde playerbase. You have the "Sylv and the Meat Shields" fans versus the "Noble Savage" fans, as well as "BElves and edgy Undead make up most of the Horde toons, so warchief should be Sylv" going nuts.

Nah, Vol'jin was a failure of a character. The character consistently failed, or was carried by other forces canonically. Him dying to an unnamed Felguard was perfectly sensible. The problem was ousting Garrosh and appointing one of the biggest failures in the Warcraft Universe to begin with.

As far as posters and players go: I don't like that the Horde has to put up with Blood Elves and the rest, but Sylvie posters are 10x better than the three remaining Vol'jin posters.

At this point, I kinda wish they just do a short time skip and tie it in with some kind of world revamp. They've messed up majority of characters I've been invested in, so I wouldn't mind a soft cast reset like that.

Waking up one day to Orgrimmar full of new, young orcs, trolls and tauren who could potentially become story carriers for the Horde would be pretty cool. It would also be a good opportunity to bring over Outland orcs without dealing with actually bringing them over, which would probably be a bit too similar to Mag'har scenario concept wise. Deadeye could skip the whole "being newbie" part and immediately be a higher rank soldier within the Horde so he can immediately take part in the main story.

I've been thinking Warcraft needs a time skip, or a soft reset of some sort for a while now, but I don't think we're that lucky.

It would solve a lot of problems, but they seem to be putting all of their chips on this "Void v Light" nonsense, and genuinely seem to think that the playerbase enjoys characters like Baine and Anduin. More than likely, we're doomed to travel to planets that literally don't matter, to fight recently introduced villains while holding hands with the other faction. That's just the direction the writers seem to want to go in.

Even if we were fortunate enough to get a time skip, We'd likely be dealing with "GROWN UP MATURE ANDUIN WHO IS EVEN BETTER THAN BEFORE" and "DURAK AND THRALL JR."

[Super Dickmann]

I really doubt there's much of a twist here. They seem to really think that the playerbase will happily get behind Anduin for future stories. I don't know who they're talking to though, because even the "Faction war is dumb"-crowd seems to hate Anduin.

With regard to Saurfang proper, I'm honestly not surprised that they've botched how justified the rebellion looks. They seem to have learned from the criticism of their handling of Garrosh (Which is extremely annoying now that they're applying that lesson to Sylvanas Windrunner of all people). They likely realize that early BfA was too frontloaded with "Sylvanas is bad," and are pulling back in an attempt to show a descent into madness. But the legitimacy of Saurfang's rebellion is going to suffer from it.

The thing is that this is inane storytelling. If you have Sylvanas start out by torching Teldrassil and using the plague on her own, then spending the next patch raising the dead, something she's been doing since 4.0, or sending agents to capture some random criminal the Horde know nothing about in Ashvane isn't going to be what makes people turn. You don't do escalation by starting with the biggest thing available and then toning it down. And the most ridiculous thing is that it shouldn't be this hard to write this shitty Mists retread when Sylvanas is in charge. She's been stuck in a subplot doing things against whatever the Horde's values are this week since Cataclysm. Instead, it's even more hamhanded than the Darkspear Uprising and everyone opposing her is either compromised by the Alliance, a hypocrite or both.

The core problem is that Blizzard are completely out of touch and they're doing to this story what they did to Starcraft, namely taking a story that both historically and on a gameplay level is based around the conflict between several irreconcilable factions and at least recognizably human motivations and making it some cosmic shitfest where everyone is allied against the world-ending big bad. Nobody liked it when the Zerg and Kerrigan became good, it clashes with their visual, narrative design and initial intro. Similarly, no one who rolled Horde was sitting there going "Yeah, Sylvanas is bad and that Saurfang guy will oppose her at some point, but I can't get behind him unless he's pro-Alliance."

But the thing that gets me the most is that they know all this. If they thought there wasn't an audience for a real faction war they wouldn't bother with the morally grey nonsense or paste Horde vs Alliance crap all over their marketing. Yet you go in-game and Sylvanas is the only one carrying this plot in the face of everyone else on both sides being some variant of peacenik, yes-man or traitor.

[Syegfryed]

I've been thinking Warcraft needs a time skip, or a soft reset of some sort for a while now, but I don't think we're that lucky.

It would solve a lot of problems, but they seem to be putting all of their chips on this "Void v Light" nonsense, and genuinely seem to think that the playerbase enjoys characters like Baine and Anduin. More than likely, we're doomed to travel to planets that literally don't matter, to fight recently introduced villains while holding hands with the other faction. That's just the direction the writers seem to want to go in.

Even if we were fortunate enough to get a time skip, We'd likely be dealing with "GROWN UP MATURE ANDUIN WHO IS EVEN BETTER THAN BEFORE" and "DURAK AND THRALL JR."

i think time skip is the only thing who can save wow lore, it would be so much beneficial, blizzard do a terrible job creating lore with old characters, and fuck up their background, so 100% new characters would not have this problem of butchering

but i go even further saying we should have a timeskip of 100-200 years, with no technological advance, after some sort of cataclysm.

This or wow 2

[Jastall]

The thing is that this is inane storytelling. If you have Sylvanas start out by torching Teldrassil and using the plague on her own, then spending the next patch raising the dead, something she's been doing since 4.0, or sending agents to capture some random criminal the Horde know nothing about in Ashvane isn't going to be what makes people turn. You don't do escalation by starting with the biggest thing available and then toning it down. And the most ridiculous thing is that it shouldn't be this hard to write this shitty Mists retread when Sylvanas is in charge. She's been stuck in a subplot doing things against whatever the Horde's values are this week since Cataclysm. Instead, it's even more hamhanded than the Darkspear Uprising and everyone opposing her is either compromised by the Alliance, a hypocrite or both.

The core problem is that Blizzard are completely out of touch and they're doing to this story what they did to Starcraft, namely taking a story that both historically and on a gameplay level is based around the conflict between several irreconcilable factions and at least recognizably human motivations and making it some cosmic shitfest where everyone is allied against the world-ending big bad. Nobody liked it when the Zerg and Kerrigan became good, it clashes with their visual, narrative design and initial intro. Similarly, no one who rolled Horde was sitting there going "Yeah, Sylvanas is bad and that Saurfang guy will oppose her at some point, but I can't get behind him unless he's pro-Alliance."

But the thing that gets me the most is that they know all this. If they thought there wasn't an audience for a real faction war they wouldn't bother with the morally grey nonsense or paste Horde vs Alliance crap all over their marketing. Yet you go in-game and Sylvanas is the only one carrying this plot in the face of everyone else on both sides being some variant of peacenik, yes-man or traitor.

Yeah, the reverse escalation is incredibly puzzling. Baine says nothing of Teldrassil and the whole blight+raise wombo combo but whines about letting Saurfang go to the death he desires? Then complains again when Sylvana raises one human? What is this storytelling? And let's not go into the whole "well Baine is shit" circlejerk again, the point is what would be very legitimate grievances are tossed aside and he only brings up the most asinine ones instead.

Honestly it always feels like the writing team is at war over Sylvanas. She's gonna be gone from Warchiefdom by the end of BfA, that much is a near certainty, but in the meantime one camp wants her to commit as many atrocities as possible so we can be reminded that she's a Bad Persontm and another camp is trying to damage control that by making the entire rest of the Horde either brainless yes-men or brainless complainers so that she still looks like the smartest person in the room.

At least that's the most rational explanation I have as to why the Horde's writing this expansion has been such an hilarious trainwreck that the only Horde character people seem to actually enjoy isn't even a Horde character officially.

[Super Dickmann]

Yeah, the reverse escalation is incredibly puzzling. Baine says nothing of Teldrassil and the whole blight+raise wombo combo but whines about letting Saurfang go to the death he desires? Then complains again when Sylvana raises one human? What is this storytelling? And let's not go into the whole "well Baine is shit" circlejerk again, the point is what would be very legitimate grievances are tossed aside and he only brings up the most asinine ones instead.

I think it's because the writers realized they fucked up for their Mists clone by having everyone go along with Sylvanas and portraying no dissent outside of Saurfang and Baine's complaint at the Undercity, both of which are hypocritical at best and paint her as correct at worst, to the point where the words "She was right" were written from Saurfang's perspective regarding her torching the tree. So having blown their chance to have people upset about real problems they have to use minor grounds instead. Except that doesn't make sense either because there was nothing stopping them from having Sylvanas keep being on that level of villainy so they can get through the rebellion crap quicker and reach the Super Friends vs N'zoth story they actually want to tell. Which leads us to...

Honestly it always feels like the writing team is at war over Sylvanas. She's gonna be gone from Warchiefdom by the end of BfA, that much is a near certainty, but in the meantime one camp wants her to commit as many atrocities as possible so we can be reminded that she's a Bad Persontm and another camp is trying to damage control that by making the entire rest of the Horde either brainless yes-men or brainless complainers so that she still looks like the smartest person in the room.

I think this is the most likely answer. Sylvanas has enough fans in the writing team that she still gets a fair deal of focus, and her potential for merchandise is more than basically any other character in the game short of Illidan, but the overall writing direction has her as the villain and doesn't actually want the faction war plot. So her supporters have enough clout to drag this story out and give her a fair deal of screentime while making all her opposition look like compromised dumbasses, but not enough to save her from her fate, resulting in neither part of the Horde fanbase being satisfied, let alone the Alliance which is the victim of the aforementioned dragging.

At least that's the most rational explanation I have as to why the Horde's writing this expansion has been such an hilarious trainwreck that the only Horde character people seem to actually enjoy isn't even a Horde character officially.

That's a funny way to describe Gallywix.

[Dagoth Ur]

I've been thinking Warcraft needs a time skip, or a soft reset of some sort for a while now, but I don't think we're that lucky.

It would solve a lot of problems, but they seem to be putting all of their chips on this "Void v Light" nonsense, and genuinely seem to think that the playerbase enjoys characters like Baine and Anduin. More than likely, we're doomed to travel to planets that literally don't matter, to fight recently introduced villains while holding hands with the other faction. That's just the direction the writers seem to want to go in.

Even if we were fortunate enough to get a time skip, We'd likely be dealing with "GROWN UP MATURE ANDUIN WHO IS EVEN BETTER THAN BEFORE" and "DURAK AND THRALL JR."

Yeah I feel you. Even though I understand why many people don't enjoy it, the reason why I'm okay with faction war, all its limitations included, is the assumption that what's most likely expecting us after it is some kind of Light vs Void space expac which is a theme that barely interests me at all.

I too have also been convinced for a while now that the way they plan to eventually break the infamous cycle of hatred is to unite the factions, because it'd be a beautiful message and Blizz is all about spreading the message and all. Personally, as soon as that happens I'll take that as my cue to leave, but as long as they keep them as their own independent thing I'll be invested in their story at least to some extent.

[Trassk]

Seeing Sylvanas fans starting to get into a panic over a rebellion coming her way is sweet. Can tell the desperation when their the kind of fans who would see every other faction leader dead except their banshee bitch.

Sad fact of the matter people, when you put a character like that on a pedestal, it doesn't last long before it collapses under them.

[Deleted]

Seeing Sylvanas fans starting to get into a panic over a rebellion coming her way is sweet. Can tell the desperation when their the kind of fans who would see every other faction leader dead except their banshee bitch.

Sad fact of the matter people, when you put a character like that on a pedestal, it doesn't last long before it collapses under them.

Where is this imaginary rebellion coming from exactly? Cos so far there we're not seeing any sign of one - you got one traitorous orc who nobody in the Horde but Memeboi even cares about and....that's it. Baine does nothing but grunt his disapproval and still falls in line anyway, and nobody else has said a word against Sylvanas or the war the whole expansion. Those are the facts, like it or lump it.

[Ramz]

Where is this imaginary rebellion coming from exactly? Cos so far there we're not seeing any sign of one - you got one traitorous orc who nobody in the Horde but Memeboi even cares about and....that's it. Baine does nothing but grunt his disapproval and still falls in line anyway, and nobody else has said a word against Sylvanas or the war the whole expansion. Those are the facts, like it or lump it

I'm pretty sure Saurfang has more supporters than just one rookie shaman, he is the veteran of all wars, iconic hero and warrior, he also saved many orcs from commiting suicide, so he is a big deal.

However I really do hope he will avoid civil war, and that Saurfang is smart enough that causing it he would weakent the Horde. The reason why he was leading war of thorns was that he wanted to secure Horde's future.

and Saurfang is not a traitor, he didn't do anything yet to harm Horde as a faction.

[Arrashi]

I'm pretty sure Saurfang has more supporters than just one rookie shaman, he is the veteran of all wars, iconic hero and warrior, he also saved many orcs from commiting suicide, so he is a big deal.

Was it through making them too incompetent to do it, just like saurfang who has like 15 failed attempts at suicide ?

[Deleted]

I'm pretty sure Saurfang has more supporters than just one rookie shaman, he is the veteran of all wars, iconic hero and warrior, he also saved many orcs from commiting suicide, so he is a big deal.

And yet we saw not one other orc, or anyone else for that matter, leave the Horde with him and nobody has even asked about him since. What does that tell you?

Saurfang is not a traitor, he didn't do anything yet to harm Horde as a faction.

Not sure if serious...

[Jastall]

Where is this imaginary rebellion coming from exactly? Cos so far there we're not seeing any sign of one - you got one traitorous orc who nobody in the Horde but Memeboi even cares about and....that's it. Baine does nothing but grunt his disapproval and still falls in line anyway, and nobody else has said a word against Sylvanas or the war the whole expansion. Those are the facts, like it or lump it.

I mean, there's a rebellion brewing (no matter how bad Blizzard was at actually showing it), she made several moves that have "backfire" written in red hot letters all over them, the freaking Lich King thinks she's nuts, and in a faction war expansion a Horde victory is pretty much completely unthinkable given that Sylvanas would just destroy a playable faction if given a shadow of an opportunity, thus she will not win, and thus the end of the expansion probably doesn't include her as a solution.

If you think she's still on her seat when BfA is over and done, well bless you, you're far more of an optimist than I am.