What ever happened to "Bring the player not the class"

[MalfLFT]

lol. Amazing. So you concede that he's right that some specs are unviable. Why make the argument that a class is unviable?

I never stated that there wasnt unviable speccs, I stated every class is viable. Look if you want to play one specific specc and have no wiggle room, sometimes you are going to be left out in the cold, simple as that.

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Not an argument. Every specc needs to be viable in every form of content. Telling someone who wants to play shadow to just play holy is not acceptable. You should never have to change to a role you don't want to play.

Lol, sure, in a perfect world and still there is not a single specc in the game that is so behind that you cannot enter content, especially if you have some fking nuts and create groups yourself. Look, if you choose a shit specc you must compensate with sometimes making your own groups, which I know 99% of people are afraid of for some reason but dont make every single class in the game the same just to acheive your missplaced sense of communism justice into wow.

[RobertMugabe]

I hate this "Bring the Player no the class" Concept so much... it absolutely ruins an RPG.

I mean originally I used to really like this idea, but really this just leads to class homogenization and still the classes weren't more balanced.

Overall, I do actually prefer it if every class has something unique/useful that others don't have.

Meta comps will always exist anyways.

[Thelin]

Looking over the high Mythic+ comps it its literally the same thing every single run. For every comp it seems like Blood DK, Havoc, Sin are 100% mandatory. For Healers Disc or MW is mandatory. So this leaves no room for any other tanks of healers at all. The final DPS spot seems to be a tossup between Frost or Boomkin with the random Lock or Hunter making an appearance every now and then. Seems like Shamans, Paladins, and Warriors arent allowed at all. So is it just me or did Blizzard recently prune like 20 specs out of the game? Where is the fun and creativity if people literally run the same thing over and over and over again.

oh boy here we go again, are you doing this super high end runs if not what does it even matter to you what the comps are? of course people are going to min/max at that level that's the point of being competitive. However, I don't see where you're pulling the statics for the other 99% of people besides out of your ass. I clear +10's in time with a group of friends that consist of mages/paladins/warriors/hunter/dh with my tanking as a vengeance DH.

You want to know what ruins the game, people who endlessly complain. It's a game, the fun is what you make of it, stop worrying about what everyone else is doing and trust me you'll have a more enjoyable experience.

[Schattenlied]

Luckily they came to their senses and removed that horrible concept

and yet class design is currently a fucking massive dumpster fire, when it wasn't under that "horrible concept"...

[endersblade]

The problem is everyone expects that every class/spec is 100% capable of doing 100% of the content in the game, which leads to homogenization. There's no uniqueness. If that's the case, everyone complains that every class is the same. So Blizz tries to make classes different, but this means that some will shine in some areas whereas they will not in others. Then people complain that they aren't getting invited to raids/mythics/PvP and we get flooded with X class/spec because it's considered 'flavor of the month'.

There isn't a situation in which you can have your cake and eat it too. Either all classes and specs are the same and everyone can do all content equally, or every class is essentially niche and everyone can be different. Can't have both.

I prefer the latter. I would much rather have it so that some specs can do some instances, etc, more effectively than others. Not necessarily per fight...that would be too tedious to constantly swap party/raid members for each fight, and gear would be spread so thin that guilds wouldn't progress. But do something, for example, where Warrior tanks are great single-target, but aren't very good for AoE. Pally tanks can AoE tank for days, but are sub-par at single-target. Druids are good for taking large hits from bosses, while Brewmasters are good for soaking up lots of AoE damage from lots of smaller targets.

Of course, they would have to completely restructure the way they create content for such a thing to happen, and the playerbase would go absolutely apeshit if they couldn't just faceroll 100% of the content every patch no matter what they play, so it'll never happen.

[OokOok]

Like, I don't get why you're surprised the classes you listed don't get brought, this scenario is nothing new. Obv the classes with he most utility will get brought. What does warrior bring? Battle shout...Ok, which helps the warrior and the tank? since most groups only bring 1 melee. Why bring a warrior who has no survivability when you can bring a rogue that does good ST and AOE, rarely dies, can CC, can shroud. Like?
Pretty obvious choice if you wanna complete a high key

Ench shaman/ele shaman. Sub par DPS, melee, can Ankh when it dies so it helps themselves. Can help heal, which they don't.
Ret paladin, decent DPS, decent survivability, can help heal, which they don't.
Feral druid, terrible DPS, doesn't help heal at all, usually played by bad players why risk it, can battle rez.
WW monk - Same as a warrior, but brings no buff

Why bring the player when the player can't help that the class they play is under tuned, has nothing to do with the player.
A shitty player can play a BM hunter and do more dmg than a skillful feral druid at the moment.

[Huntingbear_grimbatol]

"Bring the player not the class" means you bring the player that are best capable of doing content, has nothing to with class they play.

[Yoshimiko]

I've played from classic 'til the first week of BFA, I'm not really sure where these people are saying that "bring the player not the class" was somehow homogenizing the classes moreso than we have today.

The major complaints were the Hybrid Tax, certain classes being absolutely mandatory(depending how far you go back this could be the old 2x Paladins spamming buffs all raid long, Dwarf Priest for fear immunity or the bringing 2 spriests to replace a healer on dps checks in ICC, etc.), specific buffs and bloodlust. You can remove the horrible buff system while keeping some unique playstyles of the classes. Not every class needs to be a pseudo 3-6 combo point system with occasional procs to hit or an unchanging 4-button rotation.

[Marrilaife]

Now, in today's product we have much better class diversity. Even though that's the case, its obviously led to imbalance within some parts of the meta, but even that I feel is healthy for the game as long it continues to be iterated upon and balanced as well as it can be.

- "Imbalance is healthy"
- Plays a blood dk
:thinking:

Thankfully they gave some underrepresented classes some nice utility. Mages for example can now buff every caster in the raid for 10%. Nobody would ever take a mage if not for that buff. Shamans on the other hand got nothing but they are always so good that they have pretty much a safe raidslot.

There was this day people weren't taking mages because they weren't bringing bloodlust, contrary to shamans. That mistake was corrected.

Pretty sure the quoted post was sarcasm.

Your name is lilly, you get denied based on your gender, not your class darlin

Everyone knows g.i.r.l. stands for "guy in real life". Especially all the belf babes in slutmogs.

[Soon-TM]

Looking over the high Mythic+ comps it its literally the same thing every single run. For every comp it seems like Blood DK, Havoc, Sin are 100% mandatory. For Healers Disc or MW is mandatory. So this leaves no room for any other tanks of healers at all. The final DPS spot seems to be a tossup between Frost or Boomkin with the random Lock or Hunter making an appearance every now and then. Seems like Shamans, Paladins, and Warriors arent allowed at all. So is it just me or did Blizzard recently prune like 20 specs out of the game? Where is the fun and creativity if people literally run the same thing over and over and over again.

That's what happens when you introduce high difficulty content in a class-based game. There will inevitably be classes whose toolkit is (far) more adequate than others' for running said content. Basically, the higher the difficulty, the least choice for classes if you are looking to optimize results - an extreme version of this can be seen in the HEAVY class stacking during world first progression runs. And this isn't something exclusive to BfA, it has been happening constantly, even in the days of the "great homogeneization" of Cata/MoP.

[Zapporius]

whatever happened to this fking game. It used to be a completey different beast. It used to be good :/

People who wrote it cashed out. What we have now is activision dollar milking cow headed by dopamine-loop researchers and autistic nimrods like Ion.

[Deleted]

whatever happened to this fking game. It used to be a completey different beast. It used to be good :/

It used to be NEW. People didn't know how shit the game was, because it had the novelty factor, and people also didn't know it can be much better than it was.

Blizzard made some some big mistakes along the way, that really hurt the game: arena, x-server lfg, displayed item level, titan forging, ahead of the curve, rng legendaries. Just off the top of mind.

Given how Blizzard "handled" the Gearscore business, I would expect them to put Raiderio in the base game.

[Deleted]

Playing fotm classes may be the thing to do when doing really high keys like +17's and so on but the problem is people copy the top pushers and only pick certain classes when doing +11's and 12's. It's a simple fact that groups will want a rogue over a warrior simply because of they see everyone else do it. Warriors do great damage but they're left out in the cold for a rogues tricks/shroud and shit even if they aren't using it. Bring the class not the player results in dead specs or classes because everyone ignores you, even if you're experienced and have the gear because don't have the right class colour on your name.

[matheney2k16]

Has any wow Dev even muttered these words since like... cataclysm?

Y'all need to move on

[Faesroll]

Players bringing the most optimal setups to high end content? That never happened before, right?

[Clevername]

unless you push for 15+ those are not mandatory at all and even then you see runs without them, so not sure what youre smoking

Accurate im routinely doing M10 plus on my demo lock with no issues.

As for the cutting edge stuff, it’s only right they’d use every possible advantage they can get. So yeah class stacking happens because class x has better utility and burst than class y.

[Malix Farwin]

The problem with bring the player is that it tends to force class homogenization.

• If classes are different, then they will have different strengths and weaknesses and some won't be viable in certain content (or rather some will be noticeably better than others).
• If you want any class to be viable in its role in any content, the classes need to be close to the same in capability.

Lately, they've moved away from homogenization and that means some classes will be favored in some content.

Actually bring the class not the player does the same thing but worse. With bring the player not the class you have a higher chance of seeing more varied classes because outside of the top .1% most people will be playing the class they enjoy. With bring the class not the play you will see the classes needed to cover the buffs and then stacking of the strongest classes/specs while the ones with no utility/utility other classes/specs can bring get left in the dust. Huge part of why Shamans, Shadow Priests, and, Ferals are having issues getting into groups. Other classes simply bring more utility/dmg.

I mean you can look at the first tier of legion and this first tier and already tell that.

[Exkrementor]

Please admit that this is either bait or sarcasm, shamans being required because they are "so good" was _never_ a thing.

I mean the sarcasm could not be more obvious.

Blizzard gave mages more utility because apparently nobody would take them to the raids. But shamans, a former support class that has always been kinda mediocre when it comes to dps, gets no utility at all. Tremor Totem is useless and only helps when somebody fails. Good thinking Blizzard.

[Malix Farwin]

https://raider.io/mythic-plus/season...38-17-freehold

took me less than a minute to find

Did you look at the time they cleared it in lol?

Also its an easy affix week.

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The problem is everyone expects that every class/spec is 100% capable of doing 100% of the content in the game.

Thats not a problem.... every class/spec should be able to do 100% of the content...

[Shakou]

I hate this "Bring the Player no the class" Concept so much... it absolutely ruins an RPG.

I mean originally I used to really like this idea, but really this just leads to class homogenization and still the classes weren't more balanced.

Bruh, there is no question that classes in MOP, which emphasized the "bring the player not the class mantra" more than any other xpac, were more balanced than they are now. No question at all about this. Some uniqueness is okay, but Wow is not and never was a straight up RPG. It was at it's most RPG state, extremely RPG lite.

Here is the real issue with your post now, today's WOW is all about competitive content modes and those are already anti-RPG, the two things just don't mix. That's why we have issues in BFA, because the class design is fucking horrible in the content environment they created. We do not need "homogenization" and never had it but Blizzard needs to stop listening to people who complain about things like this and then make stupid decisions like class design on the whole in this expansion. Like it's a basic thing for a class to have some kind of CC that is useful to the group, to have some kind of movement speed enhancer/gap closer/escape mechanism, and to have some kind of defensive ability and group utility. Those are things every class absolutely should have and there is no good reason at all they ever moved away from that mentality except listening to all the wrong feedback.

You can certainly have a game where competitive gaming modes like M+ are the main part of end game content and more than half the classes cannot be competitive in that content, but the community backlash is going to be severe. What they did in BFA is so fucking dumb, the pruning, the GCD change, all of that, completely stupid.

If they had actually stuck with what we had in Legion or at least actually went through with their promises to nerf all utility and cc across the board and did so on an equal level, we'd be fine, but instead we have this mess.

If they don't fix this mess there will be a major backlash to the game and I'm not trying to doomsay but really don't think they'll be able to recover from it this time. This is the first time in the entirety of WOW I feel like I would be better off playing something else, and this is happening when I already play 3 classes, warrior, hunter and monk.