What ever happened to "Bring the player not the class"

[MalfLFT]

Shadow Priest. My mythic raiding guild rofled at me so hard when i suggested to switch from disc cuz 6 healers on an encounter is too much.
I have 1k rio still get declined as dps role to a key higher than 5.

Feral druid. Prot war. MM hunter. Shaman.

And im sorry specc is important.
I have only one dps specc. I do not want to be a healer. I don't, the gameplay isn't for me. I want to play a priest, though. And I am not viable.

Everyone is getting declined on higher keys, even though rogues are great I don't want two, when I make a group for high keys I want a bit of everything and sometimes that include a priest, sometimes it doesn't, its not as much to do with your specc as it is your role, usually 1 ranged is the desireable option. Prot warriors are fine(now) but the stigma lingers on so people dont want them, enh shaman is fantastic, resto and ele is okay, mm hunter you got me(1 of the 3 DPS SPECCS they have is not great, I think thats alright) Feral has same issue as prot warr, the stigma of a really bad start to the xpac.

[Ryonas]

As a reminder, "optimal" =/= "viable."

[Shakou]

Everyone is getting declined on higher keys, even though rogues are great I don't want two, when I make a group for high keys I want a bit of everything and sometimes that include a priest, sometimes it doesn't, its not as much to do with your specc as it is your role, usually 1 ranged is the desireable option. Prot warriors are fine(now) but the stigma lingers on so people dont want them, enh shaman is fantastic, resto and ele is okay, mm hunter you got me(1 of the 3 DPS SPECCS they have is not great, I think thats alright) Feral has same issue as prot warr, the stigma of a really bad start to the xpac.

While I agree overall with you about how much stigma plays a role in all of this, my 375 Prot war is definitely outclassed by a wide margin by my 360 Brewmaster. Prot is anything but just fine.

[MalfLFT]

While I agree overall with you about how much stigma plays a role in all of this, my 375 Prot war is definitely outclassed by a wide margin by my 360 Brewmaster. Prot is anything but just fine. Same with resto shamans.

Someone has to be the bottom of the pack though. That said, tank balance is a bit wonky I'll give you that but I would personally not decline a Warr on higher keys provided he met my IO requirements. Resto shamans can do just fine, slightly worse than some others but its not like the prot warr.

[Shakou]

Someone has to be the bottom of the pack though. That said, tank balance is a bit wonky I'll give you that but I would personally not decline a Warr on higher keys provided he met my IO requirements. Resto shamans can do just fine, slightly worse than some others but its not like the prot warr.

And that's where we have to disagree, warriors require an insane amount of effort to even be halfway decent, but it's Guardian druids that are at the bottom. And resto shamans? I dunno what game you're playing but in Legion I did keys every week and usually had a resto shaman healer, this same resto sham doesn't even want to play anymore. They're god awful in m+. And enh is not fantastic sorry, the dmg is okay but utility is what matters and they don't have what we need in m+, simply outclassed by Demon Hunters and Rogues, and Ele is just crap, it simply cannot do good damage on the move or good single target at all and brings no utility to the table over a frost mage or boomkin. Neither do spriests...so even if the dmg was there we wouldn't be preferring them in m+.

[Mazinger-Z]

Mythic+ is what happened.

I don't see an issue with scaling content with affixes.

The timer is what adds the need for a particular class. One you add a timer, even among friends, you add an "efficiency & optimization" requirement that wouldn't necessarily be there.

[MalfLFT]

And that's where we have to disagree, warriors require an insane amount of effort to even be halfway decent, but it's Guardian druids that are at the bottom. And resto shamans? I dunno what game you're playing but in Legion I did keys every week and usually had a resto shaman healer, this same resto sham doesn't even want to play anymore. They're god awful in m+. And enh is not fantastic sorry, the dmg is okay but utility is what matters and they don't have what we need in m+, simply outclassed by Demon Hunters and Rogues, and Ele is just crap, it simply cannot do good damage on the move or good single target at all and brings no utility to the table over a frost mage or boomkin. Neither do spriests...so even if the dmg was there we wouldn't be preferring them in m+.

Excuse me but if shamans do not have utility I don't know who the fuck does, AOE stun, ankh, off heal, hero and yes, top of the line dps, they are not nr1 but the difference is not big. If you don't agree you need to kick the enh shaman you are running with or if you are the enh shaman you need to look up a guide. ALso, what the fuck are you on about, I had a pretty undergeared guardian with me in +12 Sots yesterday and we didnt have any issues at any moment due to the tank? I can give you that Spriests are more undesireable than most other rangeds but they are not useless, you might have to work harder to get into groups but you can always make your own, seems most people don't know that nowadays.

[Banard]

. So is it just me or did Blizzard recently prune like 20 specs out of the game?

It is piss poor class redesign. All classes need a spec that does good fast AOE burst or the spec is going to be dead in MYTHIC+.

[Stricks]

so basically people are forced to play something they dont like over something they enjoy just to be viable? I thought games were supposed to be fun. If literally no one will group with you because you enjoy Prot Warrior or Shaman then whats the point of even playing? Im having trouble finding a reason to log in every day because I main Shadow Priest, Shaman, and enjoy PvP with my DK. All of those are shit right now. So why should I be forced to play something else I dont enjoy? Obviously someone is going to come along and think they are cool and reply "No one is forcing you to play something else" Well actually they are. if I cant get groups based on the classes I enjoy playing then YES I am being forced to play something else. I mean I dont really enjoy sitting in Boralus all day long spamming group requests just to get denied based on my class.

Well, making classes that all have the same abilities/playstyle just with different ability names because we need to all have every utility doesn't sound like fun to me. It also makes classes less meaningful.

[Ehrenpanzer]

Jesus, There is still not a single class that is unviable. Back when they used to try and bring the player, every single class was literally the same but with different skins, everyone had a version of the same ability it was so shit. Now most Classes at least have a unique feel to it.

Riiiiiight.... try and get a group for anything higher then a +5 as a shadow priest, ele shammy or feral druid and let me know how that goes, much less a competitive raid slot

[MalfLFT]

Riiiiiight.... try and get a group for anything higher then a +5 as a shadow priest, ele shammy or feral druid and let me know how that goes, much less a competitive raid slot

We have both ele shammy and shadow priests in our mythic progression guild. I'll try again, is it really so fking difficult making your own groups? 90% of your issues are community perception, not actual balance.

[Shoridayo]

im not talking about Method type guilds. People not even doing cutting edge Mythic kills are starting to adopt the idea that classes are shit just because Method didnt use them.

It is lame that like... some things it's just like: Oh, can't do this fast enough without a Rogue because they can just bypass 75% of trash.

[Marrilaife]

They are the only pure melee dps class in the game. With no option of speccing tank/heals/ranged, rogues very well should be the best melee class or no one would ever choose them for anything.

When they're "the best melee class" and not just "one of the many good ones", that means we're back to vanilla / tbc where hybrids only had a "dps spec" to level up and maybe pass time in random bgs, but in endgame they were mostly delegated to healing. What's the point of even having ferals, rets or enhance as a spec if in your idea they should always be inferior to a rogue?

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-Warriors are "not good" for MM+ ?
-Yes but they bring AP buff. Oh wait, don't care about warriors I can buy the AP buff from the AH

Like what the actual fuck were they thinking ?

Moreover, you can't replace the DH buff with a scroll so guess who wins for the melee spot?

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We have both ele shammy and shadow priests in our mythic progression guild.

Define "progression". Ion Hazzikostas is in a "mythic progression" guild as well, and last time I checked he was 3/8 mythic (yet he claims to know enough to talk Uldir was a well designed raid).

[Tharkkun]

Lol, first of All, All 3 you mention Are good in pvp and enh and shadow is fking great Even. For pve i did 2 high Keys yesterday, an 11 and a 13, in both i had an enh shaman(not the same One) and both fucked up the meters, while bringing a good amount of utility. If you think that shamans Are shit dps then you either suck, dont play One, or just buy too much into the rumors. You Are wrong, malfadin-EU sylvanas btw if you wanna check the runs on Io

Then you're running with people who can't play their class well in M+. They are at the bottom of everything right now. They bring utility yes but so do others that can also DPS better.

PVP has nothing to do with this thread. That is tuned completely differently.

[Shakou]

Excuse me but if shamans do not have utility I don't know who the fuck does, AOE stun, ankh, off heal, hero and yes, top of the line dps

I did not say Shamans do not have utility, I said they do not have utility as good as the other classes I mentioned, the one utility they do bring to the table that is vital is better brought by a mage or hunter anyways, or even just by using drums. They are simply outclassed by everything else that is desirable in M+, namely Mages, Boomkins, Demon Hunters, Rogues and Hunters. It is not open to debate. If they were as desirable they would be brought in for higher keys instead of ridiculed by the best M+ players, man. And that last part about damage is flat out not true. Stop it.

This is not a dick measuring contest, the point is accurately assessing how horrible class balance is in this expansion.

Shamans are so fucking bad it is more desirable to bring in a good warrior dps even though they really don't have any kind of utility. Okay?

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Then you're running with people who can't play their class well in M+. They are at the bottom of everything right now. They bring utility yes but so do others that can also DPS better.

Not only that, the others bring BETTER utility on top of substantially better dps. Last time I checked, enhancement shamans not only do not have a single good defensive ability, they also lack an immunity/soak ability and they don't have Darkness or Shroud, and Ele cannot even do good damage on the momve. That should be the end of the discussion but since some people just want to pretend that the game is totes fine and the problem is we just won't bring these other classes to our keys it'll keep going on no doubt.

[AngryTenko]

When they're "the best melee class" and not just "one of the many good ones", that means we're back to vanilla / tbc where hybrids only had a "dps spec" to level up and maybe pass time in random bgs, but in endgame they were mostly delegated to healing. What's the point of even having ferals, rets or enhance as a spec if in your idea they should always be inferior to a rogue?

Differente playstyle, utility, class lore, etc. I do think pure DPS should do slightly more damage than hybrids that fill a similar niche, since damage dealers are considered disposable and easily replaceable by most groups of players. If rogues did the same damage as, say, an enh, shaman, wouldn't you prefer to take the shaman for bloodlust?

And yea, mantaining a second spec is a pain in the ass, yadda yadda, but any serious pure DPS has to to that as well if one spec has an advantage in certain fights over the other.

[Marrilaife]

If rogues did the same damage as, say, an enh, shaman, wouldn't you prefer to take the shaman for bloodlust?

People would still take rogues for skips in dungeons. Because bloodlust can be replaced with drums with little loss while invis potion is a 10 min cd and locks out your normal potion. In raids, you only need 1 bloodlust while for example you might want 4 cloaks of shadows (hello fallen avatar). So yes, your example is moot, because "pures" not only do the same or better dps, but also bring the best utility. Hybrids are "well bro... you can go heal". Lol. So generally telling people they play a pointless spec in their role.

This is not a hypothetical scenario. This is current reality. Who needs a shaman, when you can bring a mage, who brings bloodlust, and more, for example excellent kiting in m+.

You want to bring back "hybrid tax"? Sure, how about strip all the utility from pures and give it to the hybrids? Then you can debate "20% extra dps or utility"?

[Alcsaar]

The problem with bring the player is that it tends to force class homogenization.

• If classes are different, then they will have different strengths and weaknesses and some won't be viable in certain content (or rather some will be noticeably better than others).
• If you want any class to be viable in its role in any content, the classes need to be close to the same in capability.

Lately, they've moved away from homogenization and that means some classes will be favored in some content.

If they can't balance classes having different strengths/weaknesses, then class homogenization needs to exist. The way it works now is god awful.

Classes were still very thematically different when homogenization was at its "worst".