Asmongold, voice of many, shares his thoughts on current state of WoW

[Craaazyyy]

im guessing your a new player? Mythic ilvl gear never use to exist that's exactly how you had to kill bosses in that level of difficulty

we use to do it for the transmog mounts and for the achievements

it was never about ilvl making ilvl the most important thing ruins the game play it hurts the heroic lvl players as well

you realize that you point was literally dumb from the beginning?

basically you said that they shouldnt make mythic easier, but should make heroic and mythic give the same gear.. but make mythic gear have higher chance to titanforge? whats the point of this? to make it more rng? how is this system not pretty much the same BUT WORSE than the already existing one?

mythic is HARDER than heroic and is supposed to be harder, significantly harder in fact

when you're doing content that is harder you're supposed to be rewarded with better gear..

also back in the days you needed more gear from mythic(or heroic back in the days) to progress on some bosses that were harder than a couple early ones

so your point is completely idiotic

and yes, titanforging is a dumb system.. because the idea of receiving the same(or better) gear from doing easier content is just ridiculous, no matter how low/high chances are

you do certain content, you get certain gear for doing it, when you up the difficulty, you get better gear, period.

its just dumb how, for example, two warlocks can go into the same raid in the same group, kill the same bosses, both of them will receive the same loot, but one of them will be getting higher ilvl loot, just because he got lucky. And with personal loot this is even more ridiculous.. and worse example if how people would be doing normals and getting titanforged pieces from it that are equivalent to heroic or mythic

[Deleted]

This is correct. Also it has been shown that plasma levels of serotonin do not correlate with serotonin levels in the cns (brain) and in the cerebrospinal fluid. Additionally, when considering the levels of serotonin in the brain it makes a big difference if the serotonin is in the synaptic cleft, how much is in transport, etc. It's essentially impossible to simply "measure" something like serotonin levels - as that monoamine is involved in a huge variety of different biological processes (pain, wound healing, neurotransmission, the immune system, etc.) and can be at entirely different levels in different parts of the body and brain. There is no such thing as serotonin deficiency, and serotonin syndrome (ie life-threatening serotonin levels) usually needs several external factors to even happen - and even then it's a very particular form of surplus.

I am by no means an expert but I knew conclusions should be arrived at carefully Also I believe the CNS is such an intricate system where too much of one chemical can lead to deficits in other + all the individual gene profiles that come into play (and the innumerable factors that alter their expression, etc). Hence why certain treatment methods are godsend for some and do nothing for others.

Thanks for confirming!

While we´re at it, is there a connection between believing that not everyone is doing/saying everything out of self-interest and low serotonin, as TwinBros2 implied? Seems quite weird to me.

[Deleted]

This entire forum is perma crying about BfA n stuff all day

Asmongold drops a video to wrap it up

" LMAO who care dumb ytuber "


Well ok.

[kamuimac]

im guessing your a new player? Mythic ilvl gear never use to exist that's exactly how you had to kill bosses in that level of difficulty

we use to do it for the transmog mounts and for the achievements

it was never about ilvl making ilvl the most important thing ruins the game play it hurts the heroic lvl players as well

kinda true but at the same time what existed were 7-8 pieces of hc raiding quality loot guaranteed for each player who farmed easy dungeons repeteadly over span of couple of months .

and subs were still dropping regardless of that so its a moot point

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you realize that you point was literally dumb from the beginning?

basically you said that they shouldnt make mythic easier, but should make heroic and mythic give the same gear.. but make mythic gear have higher chance to titanforge? whats the point of this? to make it more rng? how is this system not pretty much the same BUT WORSE than the already existing one?

mythic is HARDER than heroic and is supposed to be harder, significantly harder in fact

when you're doing content that is harder you're supposed to be rewarded with better gear..

also back in the days you needed more gear from mythic(or heroic back in the days) to progress on some bosses that were harder than a couple early ones

so your point is completely idiotic

and yes, titanforging is a dumb system.. because the idea of receiving the same(or better) gear from doing easier content is just ridiculous, no matter how low/high chances are

you do certain content, you get certain gear for doing it, when you up the difficulty, you get better gear, period.

its just dumb how, for example, two warlocks can go into the same raid in the same group, kill the same bosses, both of them will receive the same loot, but one of them will be getting higher ilvl loot, just because he got lucky. And with personal loot this is even more ridiculous.. and worse example if how people would be doing normals and getting titanforged pieces from it that are equivalent to heroic or mythic

titanforging is nothing but a over time nerf to the instances.

its not different then ICC/DS % nerf of itlv buf from VP.

both of them achieve exackly the same - let people go further then they would be able without it and keeping them subbed.

so only way to remove titanforging would be to put those buffs/debuffs/nerfs back in game

- - - Updated - - -

Look if Panser from Trade chat says P-loot suck, Warfronts suck, Gold reward sucks, AZ sucks etc... what more do you need delusional people? The poster Girl fan of blizz , in a polite ways says , ya you f up blizzard, yet even if people like her state that the game is in a very bad spot ( still having fun , but disappointing ) THAN IT FUCKING SUCKS, i mean it is only more validation that it sucks and should be improved , not in patch 8.2 , 8.3 BUT FUCKING emergency NOW, popsone the next EXP that ya working on and FIX it rapidly!

seems like you all lot should leave the game and stop trying to make it suck for milions of us who enjoy it

go play your next beloved hardocre mmorpg that you desire so much like wildstar - oh wait wildstar died because most people do not want hardcore mmrpg for neckbeards

[Ungeir]

While we´re at it, is there a connection between believing that not everyone is doing/saying everything out of self-interest and low serotonin, as TwinBros2 implied? Seems quite weird to me.

Almost all studies on serotonin levels have been done on mice, so I doubt there is research to back that claim. Serotonin certainly does affect behavior, but in an incredibly complex interplay between receptor density, transport protein expression, epigenetic changes, MAO enzyme activity, release patterns and of course other psychological and neurological factors. Most research on humans has been by observing changes in behavior of humans given various compounds that are expected to affect serotonin levels (ie SSRIs and anti-psychotics) - but as the compounds are often not very well understood, have other effects and are not guaranteed to mimic "natural" changes in serotonin levels it's incredibly difficult to use this data to make definitive statements about the role of serotonin in human behavior. This research is also almost entirely focused on treating various clinical conditions (depressions, psychosis, ADHD, PTSD, etc.) so it's questionable if these studies are well suited to gaining an understanding of non-pathological human behavior.

Serotonin is an extremly misunderstood "neurotransmitter" that is actually much more than that. It has so many other functions - it's found in mast cells and contributes to regulation of the immune system, wound healing and cell growth; it has a role in appetite, digestion and the body's response to toxins, regulating nausea among other things; it affects blood clotting; etc. etc.

The individual perception of altruism in others (expecting others to act in self-interest or not) is such a complex mental construct that it cannot be explained simply in terms of neurotransmitter levels (if such a thing was even an actual concept, and not just a gross simplification). Most people cannot even accurately determine when or to which degree they themselves are acting in self-interest or not.

Going back to the original claim that you should be somehow suffering from serious neurochemically imbalances because you claim Asmongold may actually just be stating his opinion without any ulterior motives - that's just absurd.

It's much more likely that a streamer will convince themselves of having an opinion which also happens to match what the viewers want. Most people aren't cold, calculating cynics. Self-serving interests often happen at a subconscious level, thus making a very different kind of self-interest than the one happening at the conscious level.

Either way, Asmongold is echoing an opinion held by many players, as seen by how this video has resonated even with many players who otherwise don't care about him at all. Blizzard has walked into a PR nightmare with BfA through a succession of failures and problems, that in isolation would be quite minor. But they're amplifying some concerns and issues that have been building for a long time, and now there's a very negative vibe surrounding the expansion and the game.

I still think this is more about internal resource allocation than poor design - and the unwillingness to admit the constraints they are working under. Rather than admitting that class reworks, major azerite changes and significant island/warfront improvements are not happening because they don't have the engineering and QA resources to do this - they try to strike a strange balance between admitting to having issues and trying to excuse why they are not fixing them.

Players get frustrated, seeing this passive response to problems as arrogance and laziness, and with Q&A, blue posts and interviews just stoke this fire of frustration. In my mind, Blizzard either needs to allocate the resources needed to get the mechanics and systems back on track (even if their designs and solutions may clash with the wishes of some players, I think players are much likely accept disagreement than inaction) - or they need to admit that they simply don't have the resources to make these changes. But that opens an entirely new can of worms, and management may prefer having the designers and game director as scapegoats, rather than admit to essentially underfunding some parts of the development process.

[Koloss]

Don't let this video distract you from the fact that Asmongold still owes 500 bucks to Pilav.

Btw, even if they just keep making new raids for 30 years i guess i'd still play as that's what i care about. Other than being buggy as fuck nothing really mattered to me yet in BfA. Yeah well, the azerite tunings two times a week got me a bit angry as i couldn't find out what i could throw out of my bag.

[Craaazyyy]

titanforging is nothing but a over time nerf to the instances.

its not different then ICC/DS % nerf of itlv buf from VP.

both of them achieve exackly the same - let people go further then they would be able without it and keeping them subbed.

so only way to remove titanforging would be to put those buffs/debuffs/nerfs back in game

there is a huge difference between a buff that that you will get over time inside the instance and only inside the instance, a buff that no one really even needs, cuz you can just nerf the bosses, and gear being able to roll higher.. you probably missed the part where people can get different ilvl gear from the same boss they killed together

if you think its the same as just having a buff inside the instance that is increasing your stats by some %, then you're stupid

and its not what titanforging is for.. titanforging is a system that artificially trying to increase the time players are spending inside the game.. titanforging is a system that for some reason allows you to get access to really good gear for doing either super easy content or at times just /afk content for no reason at all.. titanforging is a system based on rng that is "rewarding" players for being lucky, that is extremely frustrating(you know how with titanforging you're now extremely disappointed when you get a drop and its not titanforged?)

last time i checked the buffs inside instances that get higher as time passes werent random in any way.. last time i checked every single person in the raid had the same %, last time i checked you never had those buffs in lower difficulties of the same raid

[Deleted]

kinda true but at the same time what existed were 7-8 pieces of hc raiding quality loot guaranteed for each player who farmed easy dungeons repeteadly over span of couple of months .

and subs were still dropping regardless of that so its a moot point

- - - Updated - - -



titanforging is nothing but a over time nerf to the instances.

its not different then ICC/DS % nerf of itlv buf from VP.

both of them achieve exackly the same - let people go further then they would be able without it and keeping them subbed.

so only way to remove titanforging would be to put those buffs/debuffs/nerfs back in game

- - - Updated - - -



seems like you all lot should leave the game and stop trying to make it suck for milions of us who enjoy it

go play your next beloved hardocre mmorpg that you desire so much like wildstar - oh wait wildstar died because most people do not want hardcore mmrpg for neckbeards

i would 300% rather go for the ICC buff system rather than titanforging etc ! #feelsbadman when you get held in offhand from mythic mother and its shit.

[KaPe]

there is a huge difference between a buff that that you will get over time inside the instance and only inside the instance, a buff that no one really even needs, cuz you can just nerf the bosses, and gear being able to roll higher.. you probably missed the part where people can get different ilvl gear from the same boss they killed together

if you think its the same as just having a buff inside the instance that is increasing your stats by some %, then you're stupid

I think this was nicely proven by Argus, back in Legion. He wasn't nerfed for a *long* time and kill rates were increasing at roughly the same rate. Somehow Titanforging didn't trivialize the fight - mostly because people were already filled with upgraded stuff by the time they got there.

If anything, current stacking buff in Uldir is a far better mechanism. No randomness, steady increase every week, very easy to achieve and pretty powerful.

[kibil]

What do you think? Some great points he brings up.

Couldn't agree more with him, right now the only reason I play is to level my recent unlocked dark iron dwarf.

[Nightstalker]

I've been doing a lot of studying into personalities, how people believe things and it's crazy the amount of people that do not process their own opinions. They feed off of others, especially the sources they obtain information from. No amount of proof given from outside said source is valid or true until it's from whom they trust. Much like how many people won't believe anything you tell them until it appears on television or a newspaper. Asmongold can be that source for some people and until they hear it from his mouth they won't listen the words of another streamer.

Makes sense.

[sam86]

For the top end raiders the burnout was real in Legion because up until Argus it was a constant grind fest: the good legendaries, the 35 points to get the +5% bonus., the 54 points, the 75 points, even grinding to buy relinquished items for a chance of a 880 and a 910 arcanocrystal afterwards (Rogerbrown bought like 500 relinquished trinkets). Burning out wasn't because of lack of content, but having to do the same thing again and again and again for countless hours.

the top didn't leave due to burn out, but due to the horrible legendary system
intended or not, legendaries in legion changed ur dps dramatically for some classes and were a must get, however chance u get it is like chance u drink a cup of water from egypt that isn't full of phosphate : ~0%, top players are willing to farm something they can get, but when ur target is unknown, not just that but u see ppl get it from fishing, that really pissed off many ppl
my rl friend literally stopped playing mage because he couldn't get the timewarp legendary instead he got bunch of crap, and lvled a paladin from scratch and even got one of best legendaries on her (the ring)
Nighthold has a well known problem that made many ppl leave due to a) the worst grind ever in wow history of AP and b) the horrible horrible legendary system that change classes upside down (there may been specs that has legendaries that were all crap and don't change much, but i don't know them)

The sudden mass burnout with WoW began in BfA for no apparent reason but burnout. Legit!

no i'm saying the 'sudden' burnout was because content was actual sh8t, not because for sake of burnout, because when content is great, ppl actually play and 'forget' burnout
Also - as usual - legion last tier stayed for long (heh.. should we stop calling raid tiers now?), there were still lot playing legion, BFA doesn't have that

[kamuimac]

there is a huge difference between a buff that that you will get over time inside the instance and only inside the instance, a buff that no one really even needs, cuz you can just nerf the bosses, and gear being able to roll higher.. you probably missed the part where people can get different ilvl gear from the same boss they killed together

if you think its the same as just having a buff inside the instance that is increasing your stats by some %, then you're stupid

and its not what titanforging is for.. titanforging is a system that artificially trying to increase the time players are spending inside the game.. titanforging is a system that for some reason allows you to get access to really good gear for doing either super easy content or at times just /afk content for no reason at all.. titanforging is a system based on rng that is "rewarding" players for being lucky, that is extremely frustrating(you know how with titanforging you're now extremely disappointed when you get a drop and its not titanforged?)

last time i checked the buffs inside instances that get higher as time passes werent random in any way.. last time i checked every single person in the raid had the same %, last time i checked you never had those buffs in lower difficulties of the same raid

you are doin something what is typical for most of people - dont look at things with broad perspective only take very limited approach - for example look at loot dropping for 1 boss instead checking how it looks like for loot droping for whole guild out of 200 - 500 bosses .

and in time it averages to similiar power gain as those buffs were giving. if you farm long enough

[smokii]

repost from different thread, but just as relevant here:

i think blizz has just fallen foul of the corporate money men.

I think LFR was needed internally by blizzard to justify investment in raid development by showing much, much higher participation/completion stats for raid content. It may also be why players are so aggressively pushed into the LATEST raid upon release rather than keeping other current expansion raids current.

Blue even spelled this out once - 'if it weren't for LFR, we couldn't do this raid.' paraphrased

as pointed out here, blizz literally had to justify the amount of resources (i.e. people they pay money to create this stuff) spent on creating raid content. the question is, why? who came along and suddenly decided that raids were a waste of money? i'm not sure, but whoever it was hammered the first nail into WoW's coffin.

it all started going to shit when hard modes came out. blizz themselves admitted they were experimenting with the endgame system and trying to lure more people into raiding (again, to justify the expenditure on it's development, instead of additional world content for example - thus the old argument of "that'll cost a raid tier" when talking about adding additional content or system designs).

hard modes are not new content. they just aren't. there might be new abilities and more mobs to counter, but a UI switch is just pitiful. the Ulduar hard mode system was the best by far and they should've continued that trend. not all bosses needed hard modes. adding activated hard modes to the bosses it made sense to add them to should've been the way forward. but no, blizz felt it was better to give every boss a hardmode and increase the ilvl of the gear reward. which has led us into the current system.

in my opinion they should've just carried on with the Ulduar system, of adding activated harder difficulty modes on the more storied and lore appropriate bosses.

tiers used to be 13ilvls, hardmodes rewarded +7ilvl. this was a careful planned and math'd out progression system that was tied to the health/damage of mobs.

the problem was, they fucked this up in wotlk, by giving naxx 10, ilvl 200 loot, then naxx 25 ilvl 213, and then made it worse by having kel thuzad drop 213 in 10 man and 226 in 25 man.

so when ulduar came out, 10 man dropped 219 (226H), 25 man dropped 232 (239H) and suddenly player power was through the roof. as each tier progressed, the stats player were getting from gear, were making them more powerful than they should've been - which made outdoor world mobs ridiculously easy, which in turn means that the next tier of raid content had to be tuned up. however, because of this, blizz then had to tune up the badge/catch up rewards to ensure that players aren't left behind in new outdoor world content which had to be tuned up to cater to the now OP raiders.

the problem was, blizz latched onto this whole gear inflation idea to solve the symptoms of the problem, not the actual problem - which was that ilvls in raids had scaled unintentionally high.

instead of fixing the system in cataclysm, they leaned into it. so instead of outdoor content mobs of lvl 85 being consistent in the damage they dealt, whenever they released new patch content, the mobs would be incrementally harder to counter the gear inflation of players doing hardmode content. they then added catch up gear mechanics, to help other players bridge the gap.

now, it's gone to excessive levels. dungeon blues used to be effective against max level mobs for the entire expansion - now, you have to have catch up mechanisms in new areas, because the mobs are scaled up in difficulty to counter the gear inflation. non raiders will now grind a new set of gear to counter the higher level mobs. raiders grind out high level gear, next patch drops and the circle jerk continues.

it's now got to the point where it's actually really hard for blizz to fix the problem without a major system overhaul.

this wont be a popular opinion, but it's what i'd do if i had the keys to the castle.

i'd go back to 1 raid difficulty. utilising flex raid sizes and class metrics to scale the bosses appropriately in terms of damage dealt + healthpool.
i'd give at least 3 or 4 bosses per raid tier, activated, Ulduar style hardmodes.
loot would be back at 13ilvls per tier, hardmodes would reward +7ilvl.
hardmode loot would only fill a maximum of 3 slots per class. (probably weapons, shoulders, trinket) to limit the impact of gear over future content.
remove WF/TF/random sockets.
tier sets. up to 6 piece bonuses.
return to badge vendors to help negate unlucky RNG.

skill should not be punished.

mythic+ would be difficult to balance in terms of reward. but, could be more rewarding in terms of badge rewards, gold, transmog + mounts, M+ has become the prestige part of WoW. you dont need ilvl boosts if you're already really good at the game - it just makes the next tier of content easier for you. when you should rightfully want it to be challenging and not faceroll.

when rolling into a new tier of content, the bar for entry is a full set of the previous tiers ilvl.

honestly, the current system is a sham. it's a lottery. it's badly optimised for progression. it's badly itemised. it's not rewarding, it's just trying to keep you playing the game but for the wrong reasons. the lessons on progression should've been learnt by the first stat squish. the second stat squish just proved they've lost direction in how to progress. it can be fixed, but would need a serious design overhaul.

with the tech blizz have available these days, wow could and should be the fun, fulfilling, meaningful experience it used to be.



makes you wonder, if classic does well, whether they'll continue the original expansion roll out again, but with different changes to the systems as they age. i.e. not fucking up the ilvls in Naxx V2.

TL: DR the fundamental link between content difficulty, mob hp, ilvl and player satisfaction has been broken by hardmode content and ilvl inflation. fix the inflation problem, fix the game.

edit: also, timewalking + transmog running old content for people that don't raid, should be as much of a justification for creating raid content as hardcore raiding. in a game like WoW, the content lasts as long as players want something from it (mounts, pets, transmog, titles). when you make it easy to get, that desire easily wanes.

[Jaewalk]

How much do you think a raid tier really costs AV/Blizz

[Craaazyyy]

you are doin something what is typical for most of people - dont look at things with broad perspective only take very limited approach - for example look at loot dropping for 1 boss instead checking how it looks like for loot droping for whole guild out of 200 - 500 bosses .

and in time it averages to similiar power gain as those buffs were giving. if you farm long enough

yeah ofc it will, after months of farming

but for example during progress some guy could end up having much higher ilvl just because he got luckier.. and with personal loot its even worse.. and this never used to happen pretty much

[Jaewalk]

TF/WF is the only thing that keeps me going back to Uldir and doing more than one +10 a week. Your forgetting how boring a tier got before that when all there was left to do was do daily’s after you got the gear you wanted from black temple etc.

Asmongold’s “opinion” - an old man who lives in a filthy bug infested rooom, screams/goes on diatribes all day about things like how men shouldn’t be able to play female characters, does nothing but get tmog, pets and get carried matter. The only people who agree are stuck in the past and should probly quit anyways.... good riddance - 5th dumbest debate I’ve ever seen.

[Ungeir]

How much do you think a raid tier really costs AV/Blizz

They used to be a significant investment, when they had lots of unique art, items, mechanics, tools were rough and many things required new engineering work, etc. These days I think it's much more streamlined - they use the models in multiple types of content, they have better tools for creating encounters, itemizations is much more streamlined, etc.

I wouldn't be surprised if these days a major part of the cost is time spent testing, tweaking and tuning the encounters to make sure they have the intended longevity. Mythic content which is only relevant to a minority is left overtuned if they run out of time to do this, as it's better to revisit it in hotfixes than release it in a too easy state. The majority of time probably goes into tuning Heroic.

[Craaazyyy]

do you understand the difference between making something almost impossible and making something farmable?

i dont think you watched asmogolds video or you are just completely ignorant and the word RNG puts some kind of bias into your nub brain

maybe a kid like you never played at mythic level before mythic ilvl gear was added to the game we use to recive the same ilvl gear and sometimes we received lower then heroic ilvl gear back when mythic 10man was split from mythic 25man

nice, instead of trying to make sense you called me a kid

i think you didnt even understand what i meant.. and most likely you didnt put any thought in what you said earlier

last sentence of yours makes 0 sense

[Flarelaine]

Very low standards you must have

Asmongold. Relevant. Standards.