[Balance] New Azerite Traits - Thoughts?

[Argenon]

The Newest PTR patch has some new balance traits, and I wanted to see everyone's thoughts and theories about their viability.

• Apothecary's Concoctions (New) Your damaging abilities have a chance to deal 234 Plague damage over 6 sec, and your healing abilities have a chance to restore 450 health over 6 sec. These effects are increased by up to 100% based on the target's missing health.
• Shadow of Elune (New) Your spells and abilities have a chance to increase your Haste by 0 for 15 sec. At night, you also gain 10% movement speed for the duration.
• Arcanic Pulsar (New) Starsurge's damage is increased by 80. Every 9 Starsurges, gain Celestial Alignment for 6 sec.

Obviously, it all depends on actual numbers, but all of these at least seam like they could be viable and worthwhile. Anytime something buffs starsurge it sounds good to me, so bring on the Arcanic Pulsar.

So what does everyone else think? Anyone done the math or simmed this yet to know where they stand?

[exochaft]

Numbers aside, all of the traits could work. That being said, I see some potential issues, although they're more minor in my eyes.

Arcanic Pulsar would potentially turn into one of those traits where you want just one, as the only thing to scale with extra traits would be the damage of Starsurge. This already happens with some classes/specs with similar types of traits. Not necessarily a huge issue, it's just akin to the first trait being worth a lot more than having a second or third trait. Also, what would have to be seen is if the trait procs Incarnation if spec'd into it versus always Celestial Alignment.

Shadow of Elune's movement speed increase being tied to night, while flavorful, will likely have varied results. For example, going into instances, the time of day can be all over the place (if you're a Night Elf, you've seen this with our racials). Even if the time of day is steady, depending upon when you play will heavily affect if you even see this part of the trait. I suppose one way to "fix" this would be to tie the movement speed to the proc, or make another bonus during the day, make the trait available during the day at a diminished capacity while full at night, etc.

[Kluian05]

Honestly they all seem rather boring, don't change the playstyle at all. Why keep adding traits that just do passive damage?

[Great Destiny Man]

The CA effect on Arcanic Pulsar is pretty cool. With careful control you could line it up with points where some slight burst is required while keeping the actual CA/Incarnation CD available for the prolonged burn phases. Starsurge damage is icing on the cake with that. Whether or not I'd want more than one depends on the sims, but the option to beef up one of my heavy hitting ST spells is initially appealing.

For Shadow of Elune I am glad the night time check doesn't directly affect damage but I still don't like the fact that part of the effect isn't applied consistently.

Apothecary's Concoction could be interesting to use for Execute fights, but obviously depends on sims for performance.

Also, what would have to be seen is if the trait procs Incarnation if spec'd into it versus always Celestial Alignment.

Honestly I'd be surprised if it did as it would make Incarnation a flat out win for that talent row if you had Arcanic Pulsar on one piece (and the way Streaking Stars worked was a good example of them making sure that didn't happen).

[Argenon]

I agree, they are all passive buffs and therefore some would consider them "boring," but not every trait has to be rotation changing. Having one or two dynamic traits that are competitive would be nice, but we also want options to go with those rotation changing ones as well. I think they will at least be competitive passive buffs.

Also, what would have to be seen is if the trait procs Incarnation if spec'd into it versus always Celestial Alignment.

I would imagine that it does take your talent choice into consideration. If it does, I would wonder if that makes Incarnation a higher weighted talent choice; as it seems to already be favored for many fights.

[huth]

I would imagine that it does take your talent choice into consideration. If it does, I would wonder if that makes Incarnation a higher weighted talent choice; as it seems to already be favored for many fights.

It shouldn't. Otherwise Incarnation would make the trait stronger. If it always procs a 6s CA regardless of your talents, it doesn't matter.

On that note, it should be a seperate buff, otherwise you get issues with overlaps.

[Fappy]

I wonder if you cast x9 starsurges during CA/Incarn will it extend the duration of CA/Incarn by 6 seconds?

Depending on how the handle it this has the potential to be super busted with high haste.

[huth]

I wonder if you cast x9 starsurges during CA/Incarn will it extend the duration of CA/Incarn by 6 seconds?

Depending on how the handle it this has the potential to be super busted with high haste.

No matter your haste, there's a hard limit to how high uptime you can get. Even with infinite AP and minimum GCD, you only gain 6s for 9s spent casting. In reality, it's far lower.

Besides, the value of increasing CD uptime drops pretty quickly.
That's the main reason Blizzard abandoned the idea of a CD reduction secondary, they'd have to put requirements so low everybody would run around with perma-CDs for it to actually be worth using.

[nlc]

I have some questions on exactly how Arcanic Pulsar will work; mainly when exactly is the buff applied. What I would like to see though is that with good play you can consistently get 2 Starsurges out in the buff window and be rewarded for it. Someone not playing so well would only be able to get 1. This could also synergise extremely well with Streaking Stars so lack of stackability shouldn't be an issue.

[Ragnarohk]

They just nerfed PotM. Honestly I loved x3 PotM in mythic+ just spamming moonfire

[Argenon]

They just nerfed PotM. Honestly I loved x3 PotM in mythic+ just spamming moonfire

Is it really a nerf, or a re-work to make it potentially more viable?

• Power of the Moon Moonfire deals 12 additional periodic damage, and has a chance to grant Lunar Empowerment.
• High Noon Sunfire's radius is increased to 11 yds, and it deals 16 additional periodic damage.

Both of these seem like good changes to me. Maybe it will make them more attractive.

- - - Updated - - -

So, I am not a practiced theory crafter, and it may be much more complex that this:

If Moonfire ticks every 2 seconds, and you have 100% uptime, for a 4 minute fight, that is 120 ticks.
Does this mean that the new PotM trait is a 1440 (120x12) damage increase over 4 minutes?
If this is the case, I take back what I said about this seeming like a decent change.

Please correct me if this is not how the game works at all or if I am missing something obvious, because I am sure it has to be more complicated than this.

[kaid]

They just nerfed PotM. Honestly I loved x3 PotM in mythic+ just spamming moonfire

I was enjoying that too but anytime they encounter a way that moonspamming is a viable playstyle they tend to take the nerf bat to whatever is allowing it. I was curious when those would get turfed because every time this becomes possible they react to it pretty quickly.

- - - Updated - - -

Is it really a nerf, or a re-work to make it potentially more viable?

• Power of the Moon Moonfire deals 12 additional periodic damage, and has a chance to grant Lunar Empowerment.
• High Noon Sunfire's radius is increased to 11 yds, and it deals 16 additional periodic damage.

Both of these seem like good changes to me. Maybe it will make them more attractive.

- - - Updated - - -

So, I am not a practiced theory crafter, and it may be much more complex that this:

If Moonfire ticks every 2 seconds, and you have 100% uptime, for a 4 minute fight, that is 120 ticks.
Does this mean that the new PotM trait is a 1440 (120x12) damage increase over 4 minutes?
If this is the case, I take back what I said about this seeming like a decent change.

Please correct me if this is not how the game works at all or if I am missing something obvious, because I am sure it has to be more complicated than this.

Basically it is a slight buff to the power for pure damage of the dot but it nerfs the ability to just moonspam the bajeesus out of things. I was getting some good work in PVP out of stacking three of those moonfire boosts. Rarely needed to hard cast anything.

[huth]

Basically it is a slight buff to the power for pure damage of the dot but it nerfs the ability to just moonspam the bajeesus out of things. I was getting some good work in PVP out of stacking three of those moonfire boosts. Rarely needed to hard cast anything.

It's a fairly substantial buff. Previously, it was 490 to the initial hit at iLvl 300, now it's 64*11 ticks = 704 damage(in theory, anyway) before haste.

Getting people away from Moonfare-spam was probably the point.


Argenon forgot to account for Haste, though. We have quite a bit more than 120 ticks in 4 minutes.

[Argenon]

Argenon forgot to account for Haste, though. We have quite a bit more than 120 ticks in 4 minutes.

I figured I was missing something, so with haste (let's say 16% which is reasonable for most players) how many extra ticks are we getting?

More importantly, do you think this brings either of these traits close to lively spirit or tidal surge? I just keep hoping we get more viable options for our outer traits.

[elynos]

I figured I was missing something, so with haste (let's say 16% which is reasonable for most players) how many extra ticks are we getting?

More importantly, do you think this brings either of these traits close to lively spirit or tidal surge? I just keep hoping we get more viable options for our outer traits.

not to mention 12 dmg is baseline without item level, it would probably be more like 70-100 range per tick at 8.1 ilvls. Also the new potm/high noon will be much better for aoe.

[Argenon]

So, let's just say with haste we get 160 ticks in 4 minutes, with 100 damage per tick to account for ilvl.
That is still only 16000 damage, or about one Starsurge cast.
This still seems really under-tuned for a trait.

[huth]

not to mention 12 dmg is baseline without item level, it would probably be more like 70-100 range per tick at 8.1 ilvls. Also the new potm/high noon will be much better for aoe.

345 (i.e. buffed Mythic 0) is 98 already.

So, let's just say with haste we get 160 ticks in 4 minutes, with 100 damage per tick to account for ilvl.
That is still only 16000 damage, or about one Starsurge cast.
This still seems really under-tuned for a trait.

+13.3 Lunar Empowerments(2.5+haste/minute). And those are iLvl 345 values. You don't do 16k Starsurges at that level.

Besides, you need to compare it to other traits, not to baseline abilities.

[Argenon]

345 (i.e. buffed Mythic 0) is 98 already.

+13.3 Lunar Empowerments(2.5+haste/minute). And those are iLvl 345 values. You don't do 16k Starsurges at that level.

Besides, you need to compare it to other traits, not to baseline abilities.

Ah yes, the lunar empowerment part; that does add some value to the trait. However, even with 380ish ilvl, I still don't see that additional damage to the over time effect being that strong; that's why I keep asking and putting numbers out there, because I'd like to know what actual gain this trait brings.

All I want from the traits, new or changed, is that they give us viable, competitive options. I don't see this trait competing with Tidal Surge, Blightborne Infusion, Streaking Stars, or any of the prized top traits. I understand that we will always have the "best" traits, but it would be nice if some traits didn't feel like a complete waste, especially with the inability to actually target any pieces that aren't in the raid (I know they are "fixing" this). Having a 370 azerite piece be a side-grade over a 355 because of traits feels really terrible, especially since each week we only get a very limited chance at new gear and we can't, simply, keep grinding more items in a given week.

Maybe part of my problem is that I am not a "hardcore" player. I get to run, maybe, 3 Mythic+ a week, sometimes not even that. Which means I rely on the once a week Mythic Cache (which has been a disaster so far), the maybe twice a week emissary reward, and the once a week raid. I don't mind gearing being slow, maybe it takes a while for the piece I want to drop, but right now, it seems, that when I do get an azerite piece from the cache or emissary it is useless because of its traits, and this feels so much worse than getting the wrong legendary.

Am I wrong and misguided?

[huth]

8.1 azerite changes should at least help with that.

But keep in mind that we're currently only seeing mechanic changes. Numbers are prone to change.

[Chemii]

Shadow of Elune's movement speed increase being tied to night, while flavorful, will likely have varied results. For example, going into instances, the time of day can be all over the place (if you're a Night Elf, you've seen this with our racials). Even if the time of day is steady, depending upon when you play will heavily affect if you even see this part of the trait. I suppose one way to "fix" this would be to tie the movement speed to the proc, or make another bonus during the day, make the trait available during the day at a diminished capacity while full at night, etc.

1% haste/crit and a bit of movement speed isn't "all over the place" - hardly game breaking.