Why do people have a problem with titanforging?

[Flarelaine]

Great, and right now the most realistic expectation is to roll random item every week by doing the easiest thing possible rather than trying for hours to kill 7th boss in a raid. That's the reality. Nobody in the right mind should try doing any hard content because realistically the time you spend and preparation you need is outclassed by randomly getting better item from faceroll content. That's the reality. You seem to ignore the argument with a passion but we will just keep repeating it:

- You study everyday for a class, every single day, for hours to get an A and then you get that A but Billy who played world of warcraft instead of studying gets a D but the D titanforges into an A. What is the point of studying if in the end by doing the least amount of work you get the same result?

I fear you may have misunderstood realistic expectation. I was talking about the expected outcome of forging rolls. For every single roll, the likely outcome is the garden-variety, bog standard base item. And you are also stretching and grasping. You claim doing the "easiest thing possible" will yield better results than "trying for hours to kill 7th boss in a raid". Now, that's literally true, because trying does not yield anything. If you actually kill that boss, though, the loot will be way better than what you can get from a world quest (which, I guess, is probably the easiest thing in the endgame). My experience shows harder content gets me better loot (othen than welfare epics, but again, that is a different discussion).

Also, your analogy is quite false, because we have been discussing a probability-based system and you cite education. Tests do not titanforge. Billy could get an A guessing the answers, but in that case that is an A from the beginning.

[Sarkol]

But if you got that item, it was it - you are done. Here you have a better chance for sure, but then it has 30% chance to forge and 30% to forge again and again again, also add a socket to it and some leech/avoidance.. There is no "Job is done, I can move on to an alt/next thing I want to do" . There is... fuck, I can't skip/do HC on an alt because this piece is basic mythic ilvl... it can actually forge higher for my main.

In the past, did you stop raiding once you got your BiS gear?

[Naked Snake]

After reading through most of this thread, I think you're intentionally missing the point.

You've said it a few times. We all KNOW there's another expansion or another raid or another whatever down the road. That's not the point.

The point is to finish, to get the best. To know that you've done all there is and that you've reached the "current" pinnacle. The feeling associated with that is why some people got into raiding to begin with. That feeling of completion before the next raid / expansion has since been robbed and in its place an endless treadmill.

The reason some people got into raiding was so they could be done with it?

[h4rr0d]

If you want a goal to work towards, then nothing is better than titanforging. Because if you have BiS you don't have a goal to work towards anymore. With titanforging, you pretty much always do.

But that's the general idea of a goal. You should be able to reach it in a finite amount of time. Once you are done, you can relax for a bit - for example play an alt, before a new goal (next tier) is set up for you.

[Sarkol]

This is the dumbest argument yet. Everyone dies in the end, but we keep living because we set goals in life and work towards them. With your attitude we shouldn't do that because we're all dead meat in the ground anyway. That's your argument. It's the laziest and most dismissive argument used to invalidate someone.

Comparing wow gear to literally dying. Fucking hell.

[Naked Snake]

Why am I not allowed to be angry? You're telling me how to play the game, with no real arguments behind it. We're presenting reasons, arguments and why -we- aren't happy. And all you're saying is "Just don't give a fuck man," which is what I'm getting more and more inclined towards.

You're allowed to be, it's just not helping.

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But that's the general idea of a goal. You should be able to reach it in a finite amount of time. Once you are done, you can relax for a bit - for example play an alt, before a new goal (next tier) is set up for you.

So just tell yourself the goal is to clear the raid. Once you've killed all bosses and you have it on farm, you don't really need more gear upgrades.

Makes much more sense to say my goal is to clear the raid than to say my goal is to get BiS in every slot.

[Deleted]

Tests do not titanforge.

See thanks to this response now I know i'm talking to r/iamverysmart person and I won't waste my time trying to argue with you. Have fun reading quantum physics books or whatever you do in your free time. You never wanted an answer to anything, you just want to sound smart and be smug about taking everything literally. But that's just mmo-champion forum for you isn't it.

[Flarelaine]

and since it'S a god damn game, the expectation should be that i can farm the bis before the next tier. and that was the case until wod

BiS including extra levels, socket and tertiary in every slot is close to mathematically impossible, even ignoring the time limit. You can keep expecting that, but it is anything but realistic.

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See thanks to this response now I know i'm talking to r/iamverysmart person and I won't waste my time trying to argue with you. Have fun reading quantum physics books or whatever you do in your free time.

In fact, I am much more interested in recent advances in cladistics phylogenetics. Also, ignoring my entire point just to go for the barb at the end is fairly disingenious.

[spalernTJ]

So just tell yourself the goal is to clear the raid. Once you've killed all bosses and you have it on farm, you don't really need more gear upgrades.

Makes much more sense to say my goal is to clear the raid than to say my goal is to get BiS in every slot.

No it doesn't, you should make your goal to get BiS too like many of us.

[Radical Centrist]

People keep saying it's bad but I don't get why it is. I like it when I get a good upgrade.

It's both good and bad. It's good to get a TF, and bad to not get one.

[Blackmist]

I don't think I'd mind Titanforging much if the game treated harder content as a loot shower or had a much higher chance to proc it.

Having limited loot and chances to proc it into something better just feels off.

[Naked Snake]

No it doesn't, you should make your goal to get BiS too like many of us.

Why would I care? If I defeat the hardest boss without BiS, what do I need BiS for? Even without titanforging, that means killing bosses over and over to hope for that one item to drop that you still need. I recently tried to get a sword from heroics on my warrior, and that was already enough for me. I'm not gonna repeat content over and over to eventually get an item that I don't need.

[Sospe]

Reading this post, seems like mythic raiders have forbidden titanforge items, and every other content in the game is the neverding titanforge party.
Last week I had 395 mythic belt from Taloc (92.1 percentile as resto druid healer in warcraft logs in that boss... Alanon Uldum-EU) and I feel zero regrets or shame for have that luck, when i was wearing a 360.
And knowing that other people can have it from running a +5 Key, affects me or bothers me in absolutely nothing.

All I see in this debate is classism/elitism and not wanting regular HC players like myself, trying to do mythic raiding.
I expect mockery of the fact that my guild is only 7/8 HC and 1/8MM... and i could't care less. (Modest guild with working adult obligations, struggle to find 20 people who can raid in an afternoon hour when everybody else raids 22:00 to 00:30).

The point should be to encourage more people to do progession content, and not lock them out or treat it like is a private club.

Sorry my bad english, I try to express myself the better I can to make it undestandable.

[Huntingbear_grimbatol]

There are many reasons, in no particular order of importance:
- You have to simulate every piece of gear drop to see if it’s an uprade, made slightly easier with Pawn (addon).
Example 1: You got a 360 (titanforged) belt with bad itemization, a 350 belt drops with good itemization. Which one is better? You need to know your sim stat values.
Example 2: You got a 370 belt with a socket but the itemization is bad, a 385 version of the same belt drops but no socket. So which is better? Socket or 15 ilvls?
This obviosly causes a lot of extra steps to figuring out if a drop is good or not. The vast majority of players will unknowingly wear gear that is worse than they got because they dont know better and the ones who try to inform themselves on which item is better will be annoyed with having to go through a third party program to figure ut out.
To use Blizzards own words "You should know if an item is a upgrade or not just by looking at it." Reforging was removed because it was «too mathy», Titanforging is 10x worse ...at least!
2. It removes «Best in slot» collection. For many people there’s a sense of completion, the fabled carrot if you will, to be completely done with a raid. Collecting the best gear, the mounts and achievements is satisfying, to be able to say you’ve completed all of the raid.
3. It doesn’t feel like a reward because you didn’t do anything extra for it. Ok, ok. If you activated a hard-mode or had other ways to increase the ilvl you would have incentive and a way to reach your goal (collecting best in slot). But there isn’t so it doesn’t feel like a reward, some trial in his/her first raid could get a 395 with socket even if they died- were bottom of meters and didn’t know tactics well. (part problem with personal loot)
4.-a There’s little to no protection against bad luck. As humans we rarely remember good times but bad times we remember for a long time, week after week of not getting the trinket you want (with/without titanforging etc) while you see others in your raid getting titanforged versions when they already had warforged is depressing as F@&#. (which is another problem with personal loot)
4.-b Bad luck protection..: back in the days you would get raid tokens to upgrade or buy items from a vendor. Maybe it took you a month to get enough tokens for a item but it gave you something reliable to work towards (the fabled carrot on a stick).
5. Gear doesn’t feel special, a general issue since Legion. When I finally got the best weapon from a raid it was a sense of satisfaction, knowing that this weapon was the best I could obtain for a few months gave me the feeling I was as powerful as I could be (back to Best in Slot item goals). However since there’s no reasonable way to get best in slot anymore you don’t get the same satisfaction for gear- only the annoyance of not getting it.
6. The increasing item levels means scaling and numbers get out of hand, from LFR (340+) to Mythic (up to 400) we’ll quickly end up at stupid numbers again very fast and another stat squish will happen. We jumped 60 item levels in ONE raid tier, next raid will probably go from 390/400 to 450/460 and the tier after that will push us above 500 again. It’s just too much, far too much.

[Aurora]

The complaints are mostly a status thing for high end raiders feeling unrewarded for conquering the most difficult challenges in the game.
I see it as something mixed with the positive of making lower challenge content still somewhat relevant to better players but the negative of gear no longer feeling memorable or special

[Deleted]

In fact, I am much more interested in recent advances in cladistics phylogenetics.

Been a very long time since I heard these words, I have spent some time with the evolutionary side a while ago. Are the recent advancements worth looking at out of curiosity?

[Flarelaine]

Been a very long time since I heard these words, I have spent some time with the evolutionary side a while ago. Are the recent advancements worth looking at out of curiosity?

I am amused to see all my high school textbooks go out the window, figuratively.

[ToxicFlame]

BiS including extra levels, socket and tertiary in every slot is close to mathematically impossible, even ignoring the time limit. You can keep expecting that, but it is anything but realistic.

*face-palm*

OK, again...
You just described the problem titanforging created. Maybe you don't give a fuck about having bis gear, being done with your character but to a lot of people and probably all of the ones that complain about the system DO want to reach bis state, even if for a week

Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk

[Deleted]

Because you can never be BiS.

You can when you have all BIS titanforged.

[Flarelaine]

*face-palm*

OK, again...
You just described the problem titanforging created. Maybe you don't give a fuck about having bis gear, being done with your character but to a lot of people and probably all of the ones that complain about the system DO want to reach bis state, even if for a week

And you have just confirmed my original point: the problem is with expectations. You are chasing a dream. You are chasing something that may be mathematically possible, but its probability is infinitesimally low.

But suppose you convince me and I agree titanforging is bad. Suppose you go on to convince Blizzard as well, who scrap it in the next patch. Now BiS is whatever base item is the best for each slot. That is realistically achieveable. Would you be happy with that gear?