Why do people have a problem with titanforging?

[crono14]

1. so was I. the game has changed. the reward is now the bosskill, and not the loot, you can of course still look at loot as a reward, and if you do you actually have more potential for reward than you had before. before if you got a loot once that was the all the reward you were gonna get, now you can get it again and again.

2. but it's not subpar, that's a problem with your mentality. it's still great loot, it's just not the best that's potentially possible. it's still 385 ilvl. that's great...

3. no it's the only issue, if you could trade items willy nilly there would be no problem with this.

if there wasnt TF, then nothing would change for you, only you'd be in worse gear than you are now, that's it.

I get that you envy someone else's luck, but it doesnt affect you in any way.

Right, and the game didn't need to change. No one was complaining about the system the way it was in Vanilla and even BC. Wrath saw them introduce separate loot for both 10 and 25 man raids which 10 man raiders raged about because why should they get worse loot than 25man guilds? It's a fair argument. They have abandoned that system and instead we now have a complete RNG system where everyone is equal and you don't even need to raid for gear anymore. Don't try to fix what isn't broken in the first place. They added a tier 1.5 in Vanilla to help people who didn't raid have progression outside of raids, and it was a success. If you wanted better gear, you dedicated the time and joined a guild to raid, plain and simple.

How is the item not subpar? In comparison, it's still subpar to the other item. You are not getting that better item, so it's a crappy feeling no matter how you try to sugar coat it. No system should ever make you feel bad about getting an item.

[Deleted]

You are a moron if you think LFR existing and TF existing is the same thing. Effort vs reward structure is completely broken by the existence of titanforging, that's why I hate it. I have no problem with tourist mode LFR existing, as it gave trash rewards for little effort. Now there is a chance you get ridiculously powerful items from doing tourist content, that other people have to do the hardest content in the game to acquire. Everything is random now, the game was at its peak when the only way to get the best gear was by beating the hardest content.

The system will still be shit with or without TF.
Thats my point
TF changes nothing.
It will not bring back the days when gear mattered.

[Pillerina]

Do you mean you feel bad when you get a titanforged item? Just scrap it then.

Do you mean you feel bad when someone else gets a titanforged item? What's it to you? Where does it hurt? How does it impact your game?

I mean that i feel bad when i get a titanforged item. Scrapping it would be really dumb as an upgrade is still an upgrade, but i do feel guilty everytime i see that item upgraded screen, as for others i could not give less of a shit. I do however think that weakening the incitement/reward structure of the game weakens any reason to actually bother pushing yourself to do harder content, meaning the only ones who are hurt by the titanforging system are the casuals who are defending it.

[Mazinger-Z]

in the way that loot is a tool to kill the boss, if you use it as a tool and not a reward, that impvoes your progress, and that's what's important, to finish the raid.

waht purpose does loot have other than make the raid easier?

So from your perspective, if you were a ditch digger... the reward is finishing the ditch, and if you happen to get a better shovel to dig the next ditch, well that's a bonus?

[IceMan1763]

The system is fine without TF.
But the system is also fine with TF.

There is absolutely no difference in my eyes.

The only thing that can be said is "i feel sad when i dont have BiS"

Well then, remove TF from Mythic raiding and make it cap at Mythic level quality.

Problem solved.

This would make running both Mythic and Heroic difficulties even MORE important than it is now. By your logic why not just remove TF completely? Why just from Mythic? That solves the problem you just admitted is a problem but have been saying isn't a problem all thread long completely instead of slapping your bandaid solution on and making the problem WORSE.

You sound like a WOW dev with your proposed solution. Poorly thought out... zero foresight... and the fix makes the problem even worse.

[Naked Snake]

My warrior has 40 total heroic kills and 8 mythic. My DH has 5 total heroic kills and 0 mythic. Warrior also has about 50% more M+ clears than my DH. My warrior is .7 ilvl higher than my DH. It is purely because of titanforging and weekly cache luck on my DH. Titanforging is a total trash system, even moreso since we're now forced into personal loot.

You got superlucky on your Demon Hunter, and your Warrior still has better gear.

[ramayana1423]

The system will still be shit with or without TF.
Thats my point
TF changes nothing.
It will not bring back the days when gear mattered.

I don't think you even know what you are saying at this point. The removal of TFing brings us back to MOP style loot, where you had a little bonus with warforging, but higher difficulty content always rewarded better gear. That fixes the reward system, period. Does it fix the NUMEROUS other problems with BFA, no, of course not, but yes, it does fix the base of reward structure for the entire game.

- - - Updated - - -

You got superlucky on your Demon Hunter, and your Warrior still has better gear.

My warrior has higher ilvl because his neck is higher and I have some +5 traits on my azerite gear. Thats it. My DH shouldn't be anywhere near my warrior, but this cancerous loot system allows it to happen.

[Naked Snake]

I don't think you even know what you are saying at this point. The removal of TFing brings us back to MOP style loot, where you had a little bonus with warforging, but higher difficulty content always rewarded better gear.

It still rewards better gear.

My warrior has higher ilvl because his neck is higher and I have some +5 traits on my azerite gear. Thats it. My DH shouldn't be anywhere near my warrior, but this cancerous loot system allows it to happen.

It was always the case that some people invested more time and effort and got unlucky with loot drops and rolls, while other people who invested less time and effort got more lucky and got more gear. Has always been the case, even without Titanforging. You should just be happy your Demon Hunter got so lucky instead of being salty your Warrior got so unlucky.

[ramayana1423]

It still rewards better gear.


It was always the case that some people invested more time and effort and got unlucky with loot drops and rolls, while other people who invested less time and effort got more lucky and got more gear. Has always been the case, even without Titanforging. You should just be happy your Demon Hunter got so lucky instead of being salty your Warrior got so unlucky.

It doesn't reward better gear, it rewards a higher base, the cap is the same no matter what you do. It didn't matter if you got more normal gear than a mythic raider, youd still be lower ilvl than them because there is a cap. The cap being the same across all difiiculties breaks the reward structure completely. And why would I be happy that my alt who I made purely to help out guildmates by tanking dungeons for them is almost as geared as my main? It's a frustrating, garbage system.

[Naked Snake]

It doesn't reward better gear, it rewards a higher base

Which means it rewards better gear. If you do mythic raids you will be better equipped than if you do heroic raids.

A piece of gear from heroic that titanforges once or twice is lower than a piece of gear from mythic that titanforges once or twice.

You can't compare a piece of gear that titanforges several times to one that doesn't at all and then say that that lower difficulty rewards better gear. Both difficulties reward a variety of different itemlevels, the higher the itemlevel, the less likely it is that you get it, and the higher the difficulty, the more likely it is that the itemlevel is higher.

You compare rare cases where a heroic item proccs several times to a case where a mythic item doesn't. That's totally nonsensical.

That's like me saying I did LFR and got a 340 piece and then I did a normal raid and nothing dropped for me... why does LFR give better rewards than normal raids?

[ramayana1423]

Which means it rewards better gear. If you do mythic raids it you will be better equipped than if you do heroic raids.

Again, my DH says you are wrong, keep defending this dumpster fire of a system though.

[Deleted]

I don't think you even know what you are saying at this point. The removal of TFing brings us back to MOP style loot, where you had a little bonus with warforging, but higher difficulty content always rewarded better gear. That fixes the reward system, period. Does it fix the NUMEROUS other problems with BFA, no, of course not, but yes, it does fix the base of reward structure for the entire game.

This would make running both Mythic and Heroic difficulties even MORE important than it is now. By your logic why not just remove TF completely? Why just from Mythic? That solves the problem you just admitted is a problem but have been saying isn't a problem all thread long completely instead of slapping your bandaid solution on and making the problem WORSE.

You sound like a WOW dev with your proposed solution. Poorly thought out... zero foresight... and the fix makes the problem even worse.

But what problem are you even talking about?

"I cant get BiS?"

How the hell is that a problem?
What good it will make you having BiS?

Now you have BiS. The absolute BiS.
Now WHAT? lol?

Quit the game?

[ramayana1423]

But what problem are you even talking about?

"I cant get BiS?"

How the hell is that a problem?
What good it will make you having BiS?
Now you have BiS. The absolute BiS.

Now WHAT? lol?

Quit the game?

You keep playing with your guild mates? You spend more time on alts? PVP? Achievement hunt? You can do literally whatever you want to do, just like you can when you don't have BIS. You have still yet to present an argument as to why it is okay to possibly reward players who do easy content with the same thing as someone who does the hardest content.

[Naked Snake]

Again, my DH says you are wrong, keep defending this dumpster fire of a system though.

You don't understand the system.

[ramayana1423]

You don't understand the system.

I for sure do, it is designed to keep a permanent carrot on the stick in front of the playerbase in a desperate attempt to keep people subscribed. It is pure trash for long term viability of the game.

[crono14]

But what problem are you even talking about?

"I cant get BiS?"

How the hell is that a problem?
What good it will make you having BiS?

Now you have BiS. The absolute BiS.
Now WHAT? lol?

Quit the game?

Have you never played an RPG where you want to fully complete the game 100%? It feels good right? That is not possible with the system. You don't understand because you don't play that way, and well some people do. Some people raid solely for gear, and they can never complete this. The system is just designed for them to keep subbing forever because there is always a carrot.

The RPG has long been abandoned in this game anyway, your progress and actions in the game are carefully controlled by Blizzard and they tell you what is fun or not.

[Deleted]

You keep playing with your guild mates? You spend more time on alts? PVP? Achievement hunt? You can do literally whatever you want to do, just like you can when you don't have BIS.

lol exactly. You pretty much said everything needed to be said.

You have still yet to present an argument as to why it is okay to possibly reward players who do easy content with the same thing as someone who does the hardest content.

Because thats the WoW we have today, lol.
Nothing matters.
The game is by design "elitist free". There no sense of feeling superior to someone else.

Removing TF will not bring back this feeling.

[Daevied]

But what problem are you even talking about?

"I cant get BiS?"

How the hell is that a problem?
What good it will make you having BiS?

Now you have BiS. The absolute BiS.
Now WHAT? lol?

Quit the game?

lol, yes?. Some ppl like to finish their games

[crono14]

lol exactly. You pretty much said everything needed to be said.



Because thats the WoW we have today, lol.
Nothing matters.
The game is by design "elitist free". There no sense of feeling superior to someone else.

Removing TF will not bring back this feeling.

No the game by design was how it was in Vanilla and the early days of BC. The game has changed sure, but the original design was still a thing. Hence, why there is such a large movement for WoW Classic, because those players want the game how it was when it was designed.

[Deleted]

Have you never played an RPG where you want to fully complete the game 100%? It feels good right? That is not possible with the system. You don't understand because you don't play that way, and well some people do. Some people raid solely for gear, and they can never complete this. The system is just designed for them to keep subbing forever because there is always a carrot.

The RPG has long been abandoned in this game anyway, your progress and actions in the game are carefully controlled by Blizzard and they tell you what is fun or not.

Dude...it doesnt matter to have BiS nowadays.
There is zero social status or elitism attached to it.

back then:
1)there were no transmog
2)gear mattered in pvp, there was no templates or gear scaling
3)Tier sets
4) epics were epic

Without ALL OF THIS TOGETHER, the gear will never matter again. There is just no point.
And no "change" will bring back those feelings we had back then.

Accept the fact WoW is an elitist free world. No elitism whatsoever.
The sooner we accept this the sooner we can have a better game by improving in other departments.