Why do people have a problem with titanforging?

[crono14]

Dude...it doesnt matter to have BiS nowadays.
There is zero social status or elitism attached to it.

back then:
1)there were no transmog
2)gear mattered in pvp, there was no templates or gear scaling
3)Tier sets
4) epics were epic

Without ALL OF THIS TOGETHER, the gear will never matter again. There is just no point.
And no "change" will bring back those feelings we had back then.

Accept the fact WoW is an elitist free world. No elitism whatsoever.
The sooner we accept this the sooner we can have a better game by improving in other departments.

Who are you to say it doesn't matter, you speak for the whole player base?

What's fun about the game right now? Island Expeditions? Warfronts? World Quests? Blizzard tells us what is fun now, so we have to wait for them to tell us what is fun.

[Deleted]

Who are you to say it doesn't matter, you speak for the whole player base?

What's fun about the game right now? Island Expeditions? Warfronts? World Quests? Blizzard tells us what is fun now, so we have to wait for them to tell us what is fun.

Yeah but i dont pretend that by removing TF the game will magically be better.

It needs also "other" changes on top of that.

And...i dont think its possible to bring back the "feelings" we had back then with "gear". By any change.
No one can do it.
Only by going back in time.

[Naked Snake]

I for sure do, it is designed to keep a permanent carrot on the stick in front of the playerbase in a desperate attempt to keep people subscribed. It is pure trash for long term viability of the game.

Gear in WoW has always been a carrot on a stick. You invest tons of time into getting gear and then a new patch comes out, or an expansion, and you can get new gear.

[Bhorin]

Again, my DH says you are wrong, keep defending this dumpster fire of a system though.

Providing anecdotal accounts with 0 evidence doesn't hold much weight. Even if you did it is more than likely due to your warrior getting unlucky (same gear slots for drops too frequently--especially on the 370s from Weekly Quest/Warfront) rather than titanforging.. but let's see those raider.io links.

[Pillerina]

Dude...it doesnt matter to have BiS nowadays.
There is zero social status or elitism attached to it.

back then:
1)there were no transmog
2)gear mattered in pvp, there was no templates or gear scaling
3)Tier sets
4) epics were epic

Without ALL OF THIS TOGETHER, the gear will never matter again. There is just no point.
And no "change" will bring back those feelings we had back then.

Accept the fact WoW is an elitist free world. No elitism whatsoever.
The sooner we accept this the sooner we can have a better game by improving in other departments.

No, the only aspect that made BiS feel good was exclusivity, which is why i would like normal and heroic removed and LFR to be transmog only. Along with removing titanforging, and making the LFR sets look like sheit again it would totally bring back that feeling. There is still m+ for people to get decent gear, and frankly there is no use for gear if you don't do high keys or raid.

[Zyky]

How can you say it doesn't work? What is it trying to achieve?

It doesn't work, the fact of the matter is if Titanforging never made it into the game you would be the same amount of excited getting a 370 as getting a 385 with Titanforging. Instead we're in this situation now where players have to hunt for very specific items from dungeons because the raid gear is poorly optimized(for the last 2 years this has been, for the most part, true). It's not fun or exciting to have to grind out items that "can" titanforge higher. It's not fun having to go back to prior raids for trinkets to Titanforge(like Convergence of Fates throughout all of Legion). The Titanforging system only has one goal in mind, and it isn't about the players having fun, it's about Blizzard milking more time played(since that's their new metric of success according to their quarterly reports) from the players to force them to play more, play longer, and stay subbed longer.

[Deleted]

No, the only aspect that made BiS feel good was exclusivity, which is why i would like normal and heroic removed and LFR to be transmog only. Along with removing titanforging, and making the LFR sets look like sheit again it would totally bring back that feeling. There is still m+ for people to get decent gear, and frankly there is no use for gear if you don't do high keys or raid.

So you trully think that by removing TF from the game...everyone will be happy?
It will be the best change ever?

Only the people who are actually able to get BiS will be happy. Meaning a very small % of players.
And on top of that, i dont even think there is an elitist social status scene right now to be had.

But if you think it will make everything better....ok. Power to you.
I just dont believe that to be true.

[shaunika123]

So from your perspective, if you were a ditch digger... the reward is finishing the ditch, and if you happen to get a better shovel to dig the next ditch, well that's a bonus?

sure, if wow is your job.

but since it's a game you play for fun, then overcoming the challenges and having fun is(or can be rather) a reward in and of itself.

if you enjoy digging ditches, you dont need payment for it do you?

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So you trully think that by removing TF to the game...everyone will be happy?
It will be the best change ever?

Only the people who are actually able to get BiS will be happy. Meaning a very small % of players.
And on top of that, i dont even think there is an elitist social status scene right now to be had.

But if you think it will make everything better....ok. Power to you.
I just dont believe that to be true.

I'm a top ~150 mythic raider and I think TF is a good thing(I mean i'd be fine without it dont get me wrong, but I like that it gives raid refarms more value). so no not even the smal % would all be happy.

I dont even get it, since it doesnt really affect anyone negatively, unless somehow your own enjoyment stems from having better items than others, instead of beating harder obstacles.

[Naked Snake]

It doesn't work

You didn't answer the question. What is it trying to achieve?

[Pillerina]

So you trully think that by removing TF to the game...everyone will be happy?
It will be the best change ever?

Only the people who are actually able to get BiS will be happy. Meaning a very small % of players.
And on top of that, i dont even think there is an elitist social status scene right now to be had.

But if you think it will make everything better....ok. Power to you.
I just dont believe that to be true.

The thing about current wow that makes me so sad for new players/casuals is that they get way too much access, and as such never get to hype it up for themselves. I was utter shit in tbc, and i still remember my first time going in to Kara, which was well after BT was already cleared. One of my fondest memories of this game, because exclusivity had made me actually imagine what raiding was like, building it up for myself etc, making what was probably a pretty average experience into something fucking glorious.

If half the population had a fucking ferrari noone would dream about success, work towards it etc. The same thing applies to this, exclusivity breeds ambition, it's economics 101, and it's the same thing that makes communism impossible.

Finally no, removing titanforging would not solve all the problem, titanforging is just the worst offender in a fairly long list of ill thought out systems removing incentives by making content accessible. What needs to change is design philosophy, and that will probably not happen, which is a really sad thing. And note that i personally would prefer gear being removed completely as i frankly don't give a shit anymore, i play casually these days because tryharding is no longer worth the effort and playing with old friends i hardly have time to see anymore and actually doing challenging stuff would be way easier if we didn't have to worry about gear restrictions.
But if you're gonna have a stat system it necessitates correlation with difficulty, or people who work will percieve it as unfair, and it's pretty fucken confirmed by now that unfairness trumps utility as an argument, as such the system is bad even though it might be maximizing utility across the playerbase.

I'm currently in one of the playergroups who probably benefit most from titanforging, and i still think the system is atrocious.

[Bhorin]

If half the population had a fucking ferrari noone would dream about success, work towards it etc. The same thing applies to this, exclusivity breeds ambition, it's economics 101, and it's the same thing that makes communism impossible.

Yes, quite frequently when my friends have something nice which I do not have I think to myself "I do not wish to have that nice thing even though my thing is worse because some people have it already." /s

[Pillerina]

Yes, quite frequently when my friends have something nice which I do not have I think to myself "I do not wish to have that nice thing even though my thing is worse because some people have it already." /s

There's this new thing called inflation /s

[Slowpoke is a Gamer]

There's this new thing called inflation /s

Is it the exclusivity that drives the desire or is it how rare it is for you to have?

I don't think a wealthy person cares as much for a ferrari as a blue collar worker who has to save 10 years to get one.

[Bhorin]

There's this new thing called inflation /s

There's this new thing called people who think they are psychologists who are just morons on the Internet.

[shaunika123]

It doesn't reward better gear, it rewards a higher base, the cap is the same no matter what you do. It didn't matter if you got more normal gear than a mythic raider, youd still be lower ilvl than them because there is a cap. The cap being the same across all difiiculties breaks the reward structure completely. And why would I be happy that my alt who I made purely to help out guildmates by tanking dungeons for them is almost as geared as my main? It's a frustrating, garbage system.

90% of 8/8 mythic raiders will be at least 5 ilvls higher than a 8/8 heroic raider with 0 mythic kills

and the only reason it's not 99% is because weekly mythic chests exist even for heroic raiders that give mythic base loot.

a: it's baseline 15 higher
b: it basically has twice the chance to be max ilvl

personal loot plays a much bigger factor in badly geared mythic raiders than TF does actually

[Pillerina]

Is it the exclusivity that drives the desire or is it how rare it is for you to have?

I don't think a wealthy person cares as much for a ferrari as a blue collar worker who has to save 10 years to get one.

There is a concept called diminishing marginal return, meaning that $1 is worth more to a poor person than to a wealthy one, fairly intuitive, and the basis for the economic philosophy of utilitarianism, if you want to read up more on the subject. From what i can tell value is derived in part from exclusivity/rarity both of whom i'd call different aspects of the same phenomenon, and in part from utility. Rarity/exclusivity seems to be the driving force behind the value of premium products (which i would call high-end gear).

As such you're definately right that the ferrari is worth less to the wealthy person than the blue collar worker.

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There's this new thing called people who think they are psychologists who are just morons on the Internet.

I've only made economical arguments in this thread.

[Bhorin]

I've only made economical arguments in this thread.

Really?

If half the population had a fucking ferrari noone would dream about success, work towards it etc."

Big thumbs up on the economical argument rather than psychological.

[Pillerina]

Really?


Big thumbs up on the economical argument rather than psychological.

Which is just another way of saying value correlates negatively with accessibility, which is not at all controversial, it's been known for like 200 years.

[Notshauna]

But what problem are you even talking about?

"I cant get BiS?"

How the hell is that a problem?
What good it will make you having BiS?

Now you have BiS. The absolute BiS.
Now WHAT? lol?

Quit the game?

See having the BiS gear is a naturally enjoyable experience as it provides a sense of accomplishment, it might not matter or even be visible to other players but it still matters to you (which is why you still get that feeling in single player RPGs). In particular there are two major ways you can make loot feel good, even in single player games, make it the best or make it otherwise hard to replace. The latter is a much healthier system as it means that every piece of gear can have that sense of accomplishment. This is why going from Molten Core gear to Blackwing Lair gear feels much better than going from LFR Uldir gear to normal Uldir gear, despite the latter being actually a bigger upgrade.

Titanforging in particular makes both of these things non-viable as BiS gear is extremely rare now and chances are by doing any content you'll get small but frequent upgrades.

[HyperJay]

People keep saying it's bad but I don't get why it is. I like it when I get a good upgrade.

The RNG is the issue, I'm ok with farming for better gear but when LFR Raid can potentially titanforge to Heroic Raid level but also never will for me but just did for my guildie and I am stuck with 360 instead of 375 Cause I'm unlucky. Or I get a 385 Trinket but still need to farm it incase it TFs.