Why do people have a problem with titanforging?

[Xaredis]

Method killed g'huun with an average ilvl ~13 levels below mythic raid gear.. which is basically full 370 (heroic ilvl gear) + a few mythic raid items. It's laughable to claim that they are balancing around warforged/titanforge.



See above: Method did it with much less gear than you are even using now. It is a skill issue rather than WF/TF/gear issue.

Blizzard has said multiple times they don't balance a raid around the guilds who make this game their literal life so using them as the default metric for ilvl to clear the raid is very disingenuous. A majority of the tiny pool of players who actually raid mythic cannot change raid comps at will, cannot sub players in and out at will, and cannot play 100% pefectly enabling a kill at the literal lowest ilvl as possible.

And while they may have been 370 - 373 ilvl at that time when they cleared there were still plenty of busted azerite traits that warranted wearing a 340 piece of gear azerite as opposed to much higher that they had because it did more damage or a lower ivl trinket etc.

Lastly part of the reason blizzard struggles so much to find a middleground for mythic difficulty of a raid is due to the fact that TFing/WFing exists just look at the gaps between EN's difficulty and ToS and pre nerf Uldir. Blizzard literally nerfed mythic uldir after a week due to tuning failures on the levels we havent seen since they first made the game (going back to C'thun) and they still nerfed fetid again just last week. In a world where players can reach an ilvl 10 - 25 lvls higher than they could before, its no wonder its harder to judge where the mark is on a bosses dmg output or health total. They went from players will be 270 275 when they enter this raid to players should be 270 to 280 but possibly 285+ when they enter this raid.

[Lime]

So killing a boss in a raid, hoping to get lucky that the piece dropped that you wanted and then literally rolling 1-100 and hoping that you get the highest numbers... that's not a lottery?

Even with personal loot, you have to be lucky enough that a) something drops and b) the right item drops.

Gear in WoW has always been a lottery.

Gear in WoW has never been a lottery to this degree. People can accept RNG but hate extreme amounts of RNG.

Getting BiS in Vanilla was a more obtainable feat than it is now, and let's not forget how limited loot was for 40 man raids.

[araine]

People keep saying it's bad but I don't get why it is. I like it when I get a good upgrade.

they are upset over the 0.00001% chance that an LFR players gets a 385 item thats all

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Gear in WoW has never been a lottery to this degree. People can accept RNG but hate extreme amounts of RNG.

Getting BiS in Vanilla was a more obtainable feat than it is now, and let's not forget how limited loot was for 40 man raids.

and you had zero replayability back than

[Lime]

They are balanced around the warforged/titanforged loot and that's the core of the issue : it does mess up with the progression badly.

They are not. It's the main reason why EN fell over so easily, because it wasn't balanced around the players spamming M+ for gear prior to raids.

I'm not sure why you think it's designed around TF. We don't have a single raid that suggests that.

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and you had zero replayability back than

Some things never change, it seems.

[Xaredis]

they are upset over the 0.00001% chance that an LFR players gets a 385 item thats all



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and you had zero replayability back than

1)Mostly False 5% tops of people who dislike the system give this as the main reason.



2)False you had an alt to gear, mounts to go after, and in vanilla the actual acquiring of BiS was so low and by the time even a fraction of the player based achieved it the next tier was right around the corner. No human being who ever played wow acquired BiS and then logged out of the game and said I did it and then never logged back in, it's a very ignorant claim people keep trying to make.

[Deleted]

Titanforge on paper: This boss drops a 355 item with 10% chance to become 395 instead.
Titanforge in reality: This boss drops a 395 item with 90% chance to become 355 instead.

[araine]

1)Mostly False 5% tops of people who dislike the system give this as the main reason.



2)False you had an alt to gear, mounts to go after, and in vanilla the actual acquiring of BiS was so low and by the time even a fraction of the player based achieved it the next tier was right around the corner. No human being who ever played wow acquired BiS and then logged out of the game and said I did it and then never logged back in, it's a very ignorant claim people keep trying to make.

you had no benefit from running BWL or MC once you had your gear

[Archmage Alodi]

Because ppl think this video game is a job. They talk abt how they "worked" just as hard as the guy next to them but their reward got titanforged and his didnt so it's not fair.

Idk if the majority of the players are new, but imo titanforge is good for the game. Let's say u are 365 ilvl. U have done heroic raids for the week. Except for 1 or pieces that could drop from normal raid off of 1 or 2 bosses, u have no reason to be do the normal raid. With titanforge, every activity can potentially provide an upgrade.

Ppl just salty because one guy got a 395 from lfr with ridiculous lottery luck that will never happen again. I swear ppl assume totanforging happens way more often than it actually does. They just assume they are unlucky themselves, and everyone else is super lucky.

There was a time in game that you could reach the best possible gear on your character and move onto something else, that's not the case anymore with titanforging. It also makes getting normal non forged loot disappointing. In my opinion it's ok to have tf wf on lower levels of gear, but that shouldn't be the case in high end cutting edge content such as mythic raiding, glad ranked pvp or 15+ dungeons. They should disable titanforging past mythic ilvl and make tf cap for any gear that doesn't drop from cutting edge content cap like 10 ilvls below mythic/glad/+15 gear.

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they are upset over the 0.00001% chance that an LFR players gets a 385 item thats all

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and you had zero replayability back than

You think a slot machine that makes having bis gear mathematically impossible makes replayability?

[Xaredis]

you had no benefit from running BWL or MC once you had your gear

Staying in the guild you ran with to acquire the gear, playing said character with most powerful gear you could acquire are you saying people immediately stopped having fun or doing anything in the game once they reached BiS. I don't recall that at anypoint leading to introduction of thunderforging someone quitting the game and saying "well I'm BiS now so there's nothing to do" and even if someone did thats an extremely low number compared to how many enjoyed having a goal that they could actually attain.

[Bhorin]

You think a slot machine that makes having bis gear mathematically impossible makes replayability?

It seems to work as demonstrated by the people bad at math in this thread might suggest.

[araine]

Titanforge on paper: This boss drops a 355 item with 10% chance to become 395 instead.
Titanforge in reality: This boss drops a 395 item with 90% chance to become 355 instead.

thats your problem with unreasonable expectations on loot

[Archmage Alodi]

It seems to work as demonstrated by the people bad at math in this thread might suggest.

Guess it's too hard for them to realise if something is way too hard and nearly impossible people will lose interest and stop giving a fuck about it.

[Xaredis]

It seems to work as demonstrated by the people bad at math in this thread might suggest.

The first time I ever unsubbed was back in early legion when the combination of titanforging and legendaries made the whole experience of gearing in a word "depressing so at least in that instance it achieved the opposite" and maybe you're right maybe this system is better for the game only time will tell.

Maybe BFA is actually the best expansion released and theres only like 300 - 400 people complaining about it we'll unsub at some point and then the game will head further down its current path and become even better for those who enjoy what wow has become.

[Th3Scourge]

My main problems with the system is that it adds more elements of RNG into a game that was perfectly fine without it for a long time and that it causes disappointment when the loot that you want doesn't titanforge. That is not rewarding gameplay. That is bad design. Give me TBC gearing any day of the week

I wish they would replace the WF/TF system with a upgrade token system similar to trinket upgrades from Argus. that way your progression is planned in a way that you can run farm content and still progress your character without needing to be on the RNG hamster wheel

[araine]

There was a time in game that you could reach the best possible gear on your character and move onto something else, that's not the case anymore with titanforging. It also makes getting normal non forged loot disappointing. In my opinion it's ok to have tf wf on lower levels of gear, but that shouldn't be the case in high end cutting edge content such as mythic raiding, glad ranked pvp or 15+ dungeons. They should disable titanforging past mythic ilvl and make tf cap for any gear that doesn't drop from cutting edge content cap like 10 ilvls below mythic/glad/+15 gear.

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You think a slot machine that makes having bis gear mathematically impossible makes replayability?

100% since you should never get to the point where you beat the game thats poor game design if you can get there

[Xaredis]

Guess it's too hard for them to realise if something is way too hard and nearly impossible people will lose interest and stop giving a fuck about it.

You summed up what took me paragraphs to try to explain if the system causes people to stop caring what happens? They unsub over the last two years this system has destroyed the base value of loot and made caring about loot from a certain source pointless because good loot can come from anywhere. Things with low value people don't care about and if people don't care about the most integral part of an RPG the means to which players progress their character they will lose interest in the game. This is bad for the game.

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100% since you should never get to the point where you beat the game thats poor game design if you can get there

Do you lose more customers from them reaching BiS with their character in a given tier or more customers from them feeling like they can never reach any sort of finish line, I don't know I feel like the latter is true but again only time will reveal.

[ToxicFlame]

100% since you should never get to the point where you beat the game thats poor game design if you can get there

so i guess, every single singleplayer rpg is is poorly designed? I am looking at the likes of mass effect, witcher series, elder scroll series, etc, etc i think you get the point of how utterly wrong what you just said is

[Archmage Alodi]

100% since you should never get to the point where you beat the game thats poor game design if you can get there

Many people will stop playing if they can't reach that point, some morons will keep running the wheel like hamsters. Maybe it's the otherway around, who knows?

[Abitou]

People who like titanforging only like it because otherwise they wouldn’t have a high ilvl and they don’t realize how titanforging is actually bad for them, the ilvl inflation is what makes group leaders ask for AOTC, raider.io and logs, and most of those people won’t get invited to those groups because they suck. The bracket between 360-370ilvl is fucking filled with bad players, even above 370 there are a lot of bad players.

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100% since you should never get to the point where you beat the game thats poor game design if you can get there

How come getting BiS is beating the game ?

[Mindark]

This is all pointless. Removing TF is pointless.
Your whole argument is that "i would feel more satisfied if i had BiS"

Well, ok then? I will TRY to believe that even though i dont understand it AT ALL.

What good will your satisfaction from having BiS bring to the table of World of Warcraft, the game. I dont understand.

And are both of you guys even on the top 5% who are able to get BiS without TF in the game?
Because those are the only people that would feel acomplished.

Are you even on the top 5%?

I am not top 5%, no. And that's fine for me. So I set goals for myself based on the content that I can do. I'll attempt to explain where my satisfaction comes from again. My satisfaction comes from being able to reach the pinnacle of what's achievable by me. For me, that is having completed my BiS set. It's that simple. If you don't understand that some people like certain things while others don't, well, I can't help you with that.

You can still feel accomplished once you finish out your BIS list with TF in the game. You actually don't have to warforge/titanforge every item with a socket. In fact, you are bad at math to even try to do this. Mythic raid item to 395 + socket is like a 2-4% chance.. meaning at 4% chance if it drops, 20% chance for an item drop per boss and boss with 3 items (kind of the average in uldir) 33% chance leads to killing a boss 100 (~25 months.. aka the next expansion coming out) times gives you a 23% chance at your item. To get to a 50% chance of getting the item you need to kill the boss around 250 times (~63 months)

In other words, be happy with the base ilvl and be extra happy if you get lucky on a piece once in a while. Or mathematically you're just making yourself miserable (personal issue, not game issue).

No, I can't. Because it is statistically unlikely to get that BiS BECAUSE TF is in the game. But you know that since your first and third sentence contradict one another. I don't think my happiness is going to be dictated based on what you say I should be happy about. I've already acknowledged that all this is personal preference, so your "personal issue, not game issue" conclusion is moot. All sense of enjoyment comes from a personal issue. The game either aligns with your preference or not. Mathematically, I am making myself "miserable." That's literally the reason I don't like TF.

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How come getting BiS is beating the game ?

Because that's how he defines beating the game.