[Spoilers] PTR 8.1 Alliance attack Vol'dun

**Powerogue** · 2018-10-19, 03:40 PM

Originally Posted by Arrashi

We pretty much reached apex point of meme writing.

We thought Johnny Awesome was the apex but they've managed to climb higher.

**MikeBogina** · 2018-10-19, 07:32 PM

this back and forth is getting long @_@

Originally Posted by Hyral

Well sylvanas is to blame for the forsaken being in a bad situation with the Alliance, since she as their leader commanded them to turn on the survivors of Lordaeron they had just allied with. As for Garithos' current image to the Alliance, he is dead and was never mentioned again. You are welcome to ask Metzen what the Alliance thinks of him since we have nothing to go by after his death in WC3. The time after Arthas destroyed Lordaeron was very chaotic for the fractured Alliance, I know as little as you do about if the new Grand Alliance's position about Garithos. If he was a traitor for trying to kill the leader of a previously allied nation and lying to the Kirin Tor or not. But given how there's so much mention, remembrance, statues, etc, of so many Alliance characters from that era and not a single peep from Garithos I would assume his reputation isn't spotless or at the very least he was considered someone not worth looking up to or remembering.

Going by the lack of mention of him and the situation that Sylvanas found him in, I think it's best to assume that the Alliance gave him up for dead. And the only one we know of dying was Garithos.
With Anduin leader of the Alliance and the Stormwind Humans acknowledging the rift between his people and the Forsaken being on him, I'd say Sylvanas isn't to blame at all for her current situation because of Garithos, but just the natural hostilities between the living and the undead.
I'd love to ask Metzen a lot of questions, like wtf did he chose to voice so many important characters.

There is no justification for anything Garithos did regarding Kael and his people. That aside Garithos has no rule over the Kirin Tor or the council of six, specially during those days. We don't know beyond a doubt how the city that has always been open to elves, since it's inception to today, and is pretty much half elf population, would have ruled on the case of a racist accusing the new King of Silvermoon of treason for being rescued by Nagas. But given the scenario I don't think it would have gone badly for Kael. In the end we will never know.

I won't argue much of this, besides that it's never been argued or contested by the Kirin Tor that they would have stopped it. Garithos was in charge of all the Alliance forces in the area, working out of Dalaran as his HQ. But I can believe that Dalaran's abandonment of him may have had something to do with how he treated the Elves and Dwarves.

No. When sylvanas, leader of the forsaken, orders her faction to betray and kill the Lordaeron survivors she had just allied with it is an act of open aggresion and proves to the Alliance they can expect a dagger on the back at any point. And when Garithos, a warlord trying to conquer the land of a destroyed kingdom, takes Kael and his elves prisoner to take to trial to Dalran is not an act from the Alliance. If the trial had actually occurred and they had sentenced and killed Kael then you could stretch it to say it is the same situation, but a real comparison would have been if Garithos would have just cut down Kael and his people on the spot and that would be completely indefensible and exactly what sylvans tried to do.

But where is it ever shown that she betrayed and killed survivors of Lordaeron? She freed a bunch of Garithos' men and they just took Lordaeron which was filled with undead under the the control of a Dreadlord and all we ever see his Garithos die. An act that the Alliance never learned of.

And we're back to the Kael thing, which is again, heavily stated that they were going to be executed. This is cause for the Blood Elves to join the Horde and see the Alliance as enemies(reinforced later when Night Elves attack them).

Sylvanas' act against Garithos, Alliance has no knowledge of. Kael and his people's execution is never contested.

That was also after the Horde aligned Sunreavers were allowed into Dalaran and helped the Horde obtain weapons of mass destruction, one being part of creating basically a nuke. I guess all that is comparable to "they got help from Nagas from the suicide mission I sent them on" clearly the situations are exactly the same... I refuse to believe someone really thinks that.

Let me quote you something from the wiki
"Aethas was present when Jaina Proudmoore traveled to Dalaran to beseech the Kirin Tor's aid in the looming battle against Garrosh Hellscream. Though ostensibly neutral, the Six agreed to discuss the possibility of lending aid as a "deterrence" to conflict of this scale, though Aethas made it clear to Jaina that once the Horde had seen its prize, this would likely not be enough to deter them from their attack.[7] Still, Aethas cast the deciding vote, in favor of sending a token force to Theramore, reasoning that not doing so would be tacitly aiding the Horde. Both Aethas and Rhonin recommended a mage named Thalen Songweaver for the task.

During the battle, however, Thalen turned on his Kirin Tor comrades, revealing himself as a spy for Garrosh Hellscream, abandoning his post and assisting the Horde army in breaking through. Theramore was promptly annihilated via mana bomb, in a particularly brutal and lingering fashion.

Enraged, Jaina went on the warpath, and traveled to Dalaran once more to demand their aid. However, this time they were unwilling to give it, having lost their leader as a direct result of getting involved in the war. Aethas maintained that he had no part in Thalen's treachery, stating that he will make any amends he can for the treachery of Songweaver, and pointed out the presence of traitors in any given race. He furthermore told Jaina that the Kirin Tor breaking their neutrality for vengeance is not the answer, a sentiment the Council of Six agree with. Though agitated by this turn of events, Aethas and the Six still agreed to consider all options. When denied their aid, Jaina instead stole certain tomes regarding the Focusing Iris, and left to bring about her own retaliation."
^Quotes ends^

Aethis, leader of the Sunreavers agreed to aid Theramore, which was an enemy to the Horde. Thalen, who was an agent of Garrosh developed the bomb and betrayed the Kirin Tor and Theramore, not the Sunreavers. Afterwards the Kirin Tor regretted getting involved and refused to get revenge or aid jaina further... then she stole from them.

Now this had nothing to do with the Purge, but I'm glad you brought it up, because it shows the bias Dalaran had for the Alliance in the first place and the consequences they suffered for it.
Now the Purge is a different scenario. The Sunreavers and Aethis who had nothing to do with Theramore's bombing, wanted to back out of the Horde and just remain Dalaran citizens, with Aethis even trying to convince Lor'themar to do so aswell. Lor'themar was also in talks with Varian to join the Alliance, when Jaina was doing her doing the Alliance bias act again. The Horde using a portal from Dalaran to get to the Divine Bell(that Jaina was aiding the Alliance with) was then the spark that caused Jaina to allow Alliance soldiers into Dalaran and the Silver Covenant to run around killing innocent civilians of Dalaran who shared the same eye color as the Horde Blood Elves, oh and some were locked away.
Then the Six realizing that Jaina is just fucking retarded, went and allowed the Horde back into the city again and allowed the Sunreavers to take back their homes. Which then caused batshit Jaina to bail on them when the Legion was invading the world(just like she did to Varian at the Broken Shore)

No. It's just a fact. The Bilgewater goblins join the horde directly because the Alliance was aggressive to them unjustly. The rest is just saying the circumstances are vague and never fully explained, but the point is the same, the Alliance did wrong and it led that goblin cartel to join the horde. I don't know why you are hung up on it, maybe you think I was saying those things as an excuse, I was just elaborating on the quest text during Cata because the whole situation was just weird. But none of it is an excuse, it was the wrong thing to do period.

Alright, while it just seemed like you were giving alluding to excuses and blaming Garrosh for it.

To me the thing with the two is the horde doesn't believe in atonement or responsibility while the alliance believes so much in it it can almost get them killed like in the Siege of Undercity. Murdering innocents for no reason is not the Alliance way and should never be done. It doesn't make them interesting or much less is it a characteristic that's needed. Sorry but I'm not concerned in the least a horde player thinks my faction is boring, it's no surprise since we are ideological opposites. If you want a faction to turn evil so it's not "boring" you have your own faction already doing that, if that's what appeals to you.

Well look at who needs atoning. The Orcs, who sat in camps for decades(many of which were born there) because of the acts of old orcs and the manipulation of the Legion(not even Velen blames them for what happened) who then sailed across the sea and fought the Legion to save the world. And what they got for it, was Thrall setting up their city in a desert and then the Alliance arrive with a fleet attempting to genocide them, despite Jaina telling them of what happened.

The Darkspear who lived peacefully on their island until the Alliance came and started killing them?(hey kinda like killing furries in voldun)

The Tauren don't need atonement, but Baine sure as hell believes in allowing the Alliance to burn his villages and banish anyone who talks about getting revenge.

The Forsaken who were the main humans of the Alliance, well they're humans of the Alliance, what do you expect? They're naturally evil!

Blood Elves who suffered the most of any race, who were sentence to death by the leader of the Alliance and then while rebuilding and trying to fight off the Scourge, were being sabotaged by the Alliance.

Goblins on that ship that got attacked by the Alliance(no witnesses!)

I think it's more that the Alliance believe in making the Horde atone for things, while ignoring the shit that their own people have done to them. So yeah, the Horde has done some shit to the Alliance, the Alliance has done some shit to the Horde too.

And sure you can say you don't care what a Horde player thinks, but I came into this game with Arthas and Jaina as my favorite characters and couldn't stand Thrall and Sylvanas from RoC/FT.

**Hyral** · 2018-10-19, 08:48 PM