Class balance was alright, gearing and gear scaling was the main issue

[satella]

The classes all had their niche to fill and their play-style differed immensely, which I liked. Every class was needed in some way.

The problem arose when tier sets began to be equipped at the height of Molten Core. The classes were essentially forced into roles, dictated by the stats on their most important gear pieces.

Examples of gearing problems:

• Spirit on mail and plate gear. Shamans and Paladins not having 15% mana regeneration while casting, they had to take the less efficient mp5 instead.
• Defense on leather and plate off-pieces was not plentiful enough to make Paladins or Druids as effective as Warriors.
• Strength and agility taking up the item budget on healing items.
• Spell damage and healing split up, such that you either got both damage and healing, or only healing at a higher rate.

My list of possible solutions:

• Replacing all Mp5 with Spirit and giving classes that need it a way to utilize that spirit while casting.
• Replacing all +Defense with Strength/Agility/Stamina and removing crushing blows from the game.
• If people really don't want any of that, instead allow a Reforging of a single stat on an item. To discourage spamming, it could only be allowed one time per item, while also costing a hefty sum of gold.
• Consolidate spell damage and healing into a single stat, while making each talent point spent into the healing talent tree of a class increase the healing effectiveness by a certain percentage, up to a maximum of 31 points. A priest with 15 points in discipline and 16 in holy would still get the maximum effectiveness. A Shaman with 400 spell damage and healing and 10 points into the Restoration tree would then get an extra healing of ((10/31)*400) = 129, while a Shaman with 40 points into the Restoration tree would get ((31/31)*400) = 400. These are just made up numbers to show how it works.

Other solutions to problems not entirely related to gear:

• Allow Serpent Sting, Arcane Shot and Traps to scale with attack power. (Hunter)
• Increase damage on ranged weapons and/or make special ammunition drop from raid bosses. (Hunter)
• Allow pets to scale with gear. (Hunter/Warlock)
• Make Life Tap scale with health. (Warlock)
• Allow absorbs to scale with spell power. (Mage/Priest/Warlock)
• Allow druids to utilize weapon damage in Cat and Bear Forms. (Druid)
• Give druids a Resurrection spell or reduce the cooldown on Rebirth. (Druid)
• Allow holy damage from abilities to also scale slightly with attack power (except SoC proc). (Paladin)

The classes that really had no problems in regards to gearing and scaling were, and are on private servers, obviously the most popular.
Warriors, Rogues and Mages.
While both Hunters and Warlocks had straightforward gearing, they both suffered from scaling problems. Hunters being strong in the beginning and less so in the end, while warlocks only really became strong after the debuff limit was increased and Shadow Weaving was introduced, then they actually became very good. Both suffered from the fact their pets damage did not scale with gear.

These things didn't really effect too many guilds, since Wowprogress and logging didn't exist back then.

Now however, people are just too aware of the problems and are more likely to streamline their experience, meaning classes/roles/specs that take less time to gear are chosen instead of those that require a considerable effort to fully utilize.

Some of you will think this is fine, and that this actually enhances the experience. Gearing certainly wasn't linear back then, you really had to think about every single item, instead of just looking at the item level.

Out of all these possible solutions the most important change would be to allow reforging of some kind, this would take care of most of the problems while also extending the life of all raids and dungeons. People that already have all items could then get a second set of items for other purposes.

If there is anything I missed, please do correct me, or add to the discussion somehow. Thanks for reading.


EDIT:

To further expand on the reforging system:

• It would have to have a high cost, in gold, time or other resources.
• It would have to be a one time use per item.
• It would have to follow strict rules.
• Mp5 <-> Spirit
• Defense <-> Stamina
• Spell damage and healing <-> Healing
• Name of item could be changed to signify a transformation.

[garicasha]

I’ve thought about classic a lot and the problem is is that once you touch class balance, the whole thing breaks.

This game is for nostalgia, if you “fix” it you break it.

Although classic is going to be very different from vanilla because the players have changed so much, but if they start balancing classes it just becomes a Frankenstein and no one will be happy.

[LazarusLong]

You forgot the weapon speed issues for classes. Hunters had no upgrades from BWL until Naxx.

[Thunderball]

Replacing all Mp5 with Spirit and giving classes that need it a way to utilize that spirit while casting.

Paladins dont need MP5.

Replacing all +Defense with Strength/Agility/Stamina and removing crushing blows from the game.

Which would make warriors more OP. Defense stacking has nothing to do with crushing, it's to prevent being crit.

If people really don't want any of that, instead allow a Reforging of a single stat on an item. To discourage spamming, it could only be allowed one time per item, while also costing a hefty sum of gold.

Noone wants any of Reforging either.

Consolidate spell damage and healing into a single stat, while making each talent point spent into the healing talent tree of a class increase the healing effectiveness by a certain percentage, up to a maximum of 31 points. A priest with 15 points in discipline and 16 in holy would still get the maximum effectiveness.

And healers need spell damage why? You can still heal fine as an elemental shaman/balance druid/shadow. Problem is that you cant deal damage as healing spec, which has nothing to do with having enough spell damage, but tools that are not available for you. Also, giving bonuses based on points spend in a talent tree has nothing to do with vanilla.

Allow Serpent Sting, Arcane Shot and Traps to scale with attack power. (Hunter)

Hunter is OP enough in PvP, you want to make them more OP?

Increase damage on ranged weapons and/or make special ammunition drop from raid bosses. (Hunter)

Does nothing in PvE, but again, buffs a strong PvP class even more.

Allow pets to scale with gear. (Hunter/Warlock)

Warlocks are not using pets in PvE, in PvP they are OP enough. For Hunters yet again, some pets can solo people even without gear scaling.

Make Life Tap scale with health. (Warlock)

Why?

Allow absorbs to scale with spell power. (Mage/Priest/Warlock)

They do scale with spell power in 1.12. Just very minimally (10%), which is good.

Allow druids to utilize weapon damage in Cat and Bear Forms. (Druid)

Which is going to make them OP. Druids scaled with weapon damage early in vanilla and Blizzard changed it for exactly that reason.

Give druids a Resurrection spell or reduce the cooldown on Rebirth. (Druid)

Why?

Allow holy damage from abilities to also scale slightly with attack power (except SoC proc). (Paladin)

SoC does scale with attack power. Holy damage abilities? Why? Holy paladins dont stack attack power.

Warlocks had straightforward gearing, they both suffered from scaling problems.

No. Warlocks have different problems.

TLDR: another thread from someone who doesnt understand the consequences of their 'balancing'.

[Chaelexi]

You forgot the weapon speed issues for classes. Hunters had no upgrades from BWL until Naxx.

Alliance casters only had the Femor off Vicidus which was a horrible kill.

[Deleted]

This is a very well put together post of feedback.

But...no changes?

[satella]

You forgot the weapon speed issues for classes. Hunters had no upgrades from BWL until Naxx.

You're right, hunters relied too much on slow ranged weapons. I remember getting the Epic Quest bow and realizing the blue bow from Stratholme was actually better in terms of weaving aimed shots and of course higher damage on aimed shots.

They did normalize instant weapon skills later on though, but slower weapons were still almost always better.

I'm not sure how to fix it other than to force them to make all ranged weapons the same speed (3.4), that would also minimize the depletion of ammunition.

Making special ammunition drop from raid bosses, that could only be used inside that raid, would certainly help the scaling issues a bit without making hunters overpowered in PvP.

[MardestyGSOG]

Class balance wasn’t alright though considering pallies had no taunt, and sham and druid mana regen was in the resto tree

[Pieterman]

Shouldve posted this 12 years ago. Maybe it would havr been of use. Right now its meaningless. Classic will be as close to what vanilla was as possible. Trying to rebalance it is dumb. Blizzard has been balancing the game for 14 years and its still not balanced. Id rather play an iteration where youre weak but useful instead of homogenized but 3% behind other classes.

[NovatHunter]

You have absolutely no idea how these changes would affect the game at large, neither does Blizzard. Hence, no changes.

Fun fact, Blizzard had a fix to classic wow. They called it The Burning Crusade. Blizzard at the time, correctly assessed that making significant changes without breaking the game would have been too time consuming and difficult. Even when The Burning Crusade launched, very little was done to the classic wow content. The most game changing talents are found at the bottom of the tree, powerful abilities are given past lvl 60.

Shaman - Earth elemental totem and bloodlust
Druid - Cyclone, lacerate, lifebloom and Maim
Priest - Mass dispel, shadow fiend and binding heal
Paladin - Avenging wrath and seal of blood/vengeance

All of these, defining abilities were added after level 60. At the time, Blizzard still valued the balance in the old world and only made the content marginally easier. The only significant exception i could find was ''spiritual attunement'' for paladin, which grants mana when healed. But that ability only works when healed by a different player, so very much a group ability.

''Increase damage on ranged weapons and/or make special ammunition drop from raid bosses''

Are you aware how broken that would make hunters? Why should we listen to you, when you have no in depth understanding of how the game works. If you boost Hunter damage, you would make them broken beyond reason in world boss fights. I tell you, the most fun i've ever had is obliterating casters from 41 yard range with my BWL crossbow. It's fun in battlegrounds, but when fighting for world bosses, very few of the clothies show up in pvp gear and talents.

If you're looking for a solution to boost hunter damage on par with rogues, warriors and mages. You're looking at a class overhaul, with significantly more changes than just increasing the damage on hunter weapons. The only measure i can think of is giving hunters some form of armor penetration, so that we can deal more damage to bosses, without killing 3 cloth users with a multi-shot. But even then, you can't just add 25% penetration to bring hunters on par, that would break other parts of the game.

My point is, you have no clue, no one has any clue. The amount of testing would be out of this world, and once you start messing around with the sliders. You're gonna keep messing with the sliders for years to come. Blizzard can't make changes at launch, then just leave it as is. They will have to keep making changes, and once they start, sooner or later, the game will be completely unrecognizable.


Edit: All of your points seem to have something to do with gear scaling. The last thing we need to do is make raid geared characters even more powerful compared to dungeon geared characters.

[satella]

You have absolutely no idea how these changes would affect the game at large, neither does Blizzard. Hence, no changes.

Fun fact, Blizzard had a fix to classic wow. They called it The Burning Crusade. Blizzard at the time, correctly assessed that making significant changes without breaking the game would have been too time consuming and difficult. Even when The Burning Crusade launched, very little was done to the classic wow content. The most game changing talents are found at the bottom of the tree, powerful abilities are given past lvl 60.

Shaman - Earth elemental totem and bloodlust
Druid - Cyclone, lacerate, lifebloom and Maim
Priest - Mass dispel, shadow fiend and binding heal
Paladin - Avenging wrath and seal of blood/vengeance

All of these, defining abilities were added after level 60. At the time, Blizzard still valued the balance in the old world and only made the content marginally easier. The only significant exception i could find was ''spiritual attunement'' for paladin, which grants mana when healed. But that ability only works when healed by a different player, so very much a group ability.

''Increase damage on ranged weapons and/or make special ammunition drop from raid bosses''

Are you aware how broken that would make hunters? Why should we listen to you, when you have no in depth understanding of how the game works. If you boost Hunter damage, you would make them broken beyond reason in world boss fights. I tell you, the most fun i've ever had is obliterating casters from 41 yard range with my BWL crossbow. It's fun in battlegrounds, but when fighting for world bosses, very few of the clothies show up in pvp gear and talents.

If you're looking for a solution to boost hunter damage on par with rogues, warriors and mages. You're looking at a class overhaul, with significantly more changes than just increasing the damage on hunter weapons. The only measure i can think of is giving hunters some form of armor penetration, so that we can deal more damage to bosses, without killing 3 cloth users with a multi-shot. But even then, you can't just add 25% penetration to bring hunters on par, that would break other parts of the game.

My point is, you have no clue, no one has any clue. The amount of testing would be out of this world, and once you start messing around with the sliders. You're gonna keep messing with the sliders for years to come. Blizzard can't make changes at launch, then just leave it as is. They will have to keep making changes, and once they start, sooner or later, the game will be completely unrecognizable.


Edit: All of your points seem to have something to do with gear scaling. The last thing we need to do is make raid geared characters even more powerful compared to dungeon geared characters.

Nobody should be automatically listened to, that would be crazy. My voice has been heard by a few people, and some, like you, have made the effort to give me feedback on my thoughts. I thank you for it.

I am mostly against changes, because I know the ripple effect it would have on the game. There are a few changes that I know will not change the overall experience too much. Having an optional graphical overhaul, where you can check a box to show new models/animations/textures. That is a change I fully support.

Most of the changes I mentioned here were meant to be thrown out into the ether, and for people like yourself to poke holes in, expose it to the light if you will, to see where it could go wrong. So far you seem to be closest to genuine feedback.

Having special ammunition drop from raid bosses is an idea that can be worked on. If for example, a pouch with 1000 arrows would drop, and it would be rare enough that expending them on anything other than progression fights would be a waste, a case where the hunter actually uses them in PvP to kill someone powerful could be made. "He used his special arrows, he must've really wanted that kill, he can't do that again".

On the other hand, a unique item could drop from certain raid bosses that would dispense temporary magical ammunition that could only work inside the raid in question, like the legendary weapons in Tempest Keep. That would preclude the arrows from being used for anything other than raid damage, and the arrows could have a high enough dps so that scaling issues would be fixed.

There is always a way to fix problems, without introducing new ones. Saying that just because most people don't have a clue, that I am one of those people is not logical at all. It's lazy and defeatist.

You don't strike me as lazy.

[Deleted]

You haven't a clue what you're talking about, bud.

[h4rr0d]

All of these, defining abilities were added after level 60. At the time, Blizzard still valued the balance in the old world and only made the content marginally easier. The only significant exception i could find was ''spiritual attunement'' for paladin, which grants mana when healed. But that ability only works when healed by a different player, so very much a group ability.

Wasn't spiritual attunement there for prot paladins, so that they don't run OOM when tanking?

[Enosh]

If there is anything I missed, please do correct me

yes, none of that was in vanilla

[Fiacla]

Class balance in classic was non-existent and to say otherwise is completely disingenuous.

[Hottage]

Incorrect, hybrid specs were deliberately gimped in their none healing roles and this was even given a name by Blizzard the "hybrid tax".

Given perfectly itemized gear, a Retribution paladin or Shadow Priest would still not be within 10% of a perfectly itemized Warrior or Rogue.

The question was never whether they are on-par damage wise, it was whether the other things they bring to the table make that 15-20% reduced damage worthwhile.

[NovatHunter]

Wasn't spiritual attunement there for prot paladins, so that they don't run OOM when tanking?

Yes, it provided mana when the paladin was healed. However, it only granted mana when healed by a different player. So most useful for protection, yet nice for Ret and holy.

[dayne87]

I mean, considering how much spirit/agi gear I remember seeing on greens, I do agree gearing and gear itemization was borked back in Classic.

But it's a big thing to tackle because, as others pointed out, if you start changing gear or talents then you have to do it for EVERY class and EVERY set item and THEN rebalance bosses around the changes. Because if suddenly your hunters are scaling their serpent stings off AGI then that could make bosses EASIER at high levels of gear. And you compound that by suddenly changing EVERY class in that way and suddenly the boses become trivial and need to be buffed significantly.

I'm NOT against changing to allow druids to tank as their spec suggested they could at end game (adding taunts, more defense talents, etc.) but I caution that there would be unintended consequences of such actions.

[satella]

I mean, considering how much spirit/agi gear I remember seeing on greens, I do agree gearing and gear itemization was borked back in Classic.

But it's a big thing to tackle because, as others pointed out, if you start changing gear or talents then you have to do it for EVERY class and EVERY set item and THEN rebalance bosses around the changes. Because if suddenly your hunters are scaling their serpent stings off AGI then that could make bosses EASIER at high levels of gear. And you compound that by suddenly changing EVERY class in that way and suddenly the boses become trivial and need to be buffed significantly.

I'm NOT against changing to allow druids to tank as their spec suggested they could at end game (adding taunts, more defense talents, etc.) but I caution that there would be unintended consequences of such actions.

You're absolutely right, some of my proposed changes would actually be too hard to implement, which is why I'm now only strongly advocating for a Reforging system, it would probably solve most of the problems that I mentioned.

To further expand on the reforging system:

• It would have to have a high cost, in gold, time or other resources.
• It would have to be a one time use per item.
• It would have to follow strict rules.
• Mp5 <-> Spirit
• Defense <-> Stamina
• Spell damage and healing <-> Healing
• Name of item could be changed to signify a transformation.

Hunter endgame scaling could be fixed by an item drop from raid bosses that creates Temporary Magical Ammunition that can only be used inside the raid. Having increased DPS on ranged weapons would upset PvP balance. Scaling pets would not really help in raids, since they can't be used on some fights.

[Zeons]

Can't wait to see balance changes happening in classic wow. The rednecks will go crazy!