Would you allow suboptimal specs in your group?

[blooderduki]

Yes, your right, but AQ and ZG won't be available at the beginning of classic, meaning that a Paly wouldn't be able to properly tank Nefarian until they're released. ZG and AQ dropped some really strong gear. These raids were basically introduced so people could get more gear and better gear as the gear in MC is pretty awful and there's hardly any of it to go around.

ZG and AQ will not be released on day 1. It's going to be at least a full year into vanilla before a Paly tank can get some really good gear. BWL won't be released until about after 6-7 months after the release date. ZG will be 2-3 months after that and AQ 20 and 40 will be released 4-5 months after ZG is released. It's going to be a full year before a paladin can even start getting decent gear, whilst warriors can start building up tier 1 and 2 from day 1. Paladin tanks have a serious gearing issue in the early days meaning that if you have a Paly tank as your main tank at the start of Vanilla, you're going to have a serious disadvantage when it comes to progress.

You have Molten Core Epic Items who are offset in order to do and Main Tank Neffarian , so it's wrong what you saying that there are no epics, there are still Epics Offset pieces in Molten Core and BWL itself + Epic BoE Shoulders World Drop + Thunderfury or at least MC Sword + trinkets from both BWL and MC , more than enough to survive the easy mode Neffarian .

You have no clue what you even expect , Blizzard is not Private Server , so this wont be Nostalrius where Bosses in raids doing 25% more Physical damage , surviving Neffarian is an easy mode and cake, especially that DeathBone set will be available from Day 1 , you can easy get more def cap and replace blues with Epics who doesn't offer defense but are strong with defensive stats!

What Gear Available are you talking about, you have no idea what Gear even Paladins do use ..... Even if there is no BWL , there will still be Pre Raid Gear enough to kill and clear Molten Core , especially the fact that Majority of MC Bosses doesn't even need Tank Gear, but FR gear!

Tier 1 for your garbage Warrior Tank is even weaker than the Blue Items from Pre Raid offset Gear, so sure feel free and go farm your Tier 1 , while as Paladin i will simple get all the gear before i step to MC , while you as Warrior will have to waste tons of time farming your Gear.

No , it's completely garbage mindset to say Paladins do have Gear issue, because they don't, until BWL release -Pre raid is more than enough , when BWL release - Gear from MC + BOE + BWL gear is more than enough for T2 !

- - - Updated - - -

Ret was laughable DPS and prot COULD tank, but due to having no taunt it was a hassle, you needed to give the pally a good 15-20 seconds before you could really DPS....

Nobody ask anyone to wait before you could really dps , which leads your fact that your paladin was noob or you speak out of thin air without any knowledge about it , but you are completely wrong about what you just said !

[AeneasBK]

Nobody ask anyone to wait before you could really dps , which leads your fact that your paladin was noob or you speak out of thin air without any knowledge about it , but you are completely wrong about what you just said !

Ho ho ho, 330 DPS isn't gimped or holding back, everyone could do MAX DAMAGE WITH A PALADIN TANK.

Get out of here :P

[blooderduki]

BTW the biggest irony in the tank situation in Vanilla is on the original WoW website they listed Paladins as the TRUE tank of the game.

This leads to the point i say , Paladins were Tanks , but different than Warriors and could do the job different , problem is noobs and monotonous mindsets who doesn't even have a knowledge ,neither can't comprehend how they work .

[Fumu]

One important thing to keep in mind is that back then, even with people like EJ and forum posts explaining rotations, we just did not have knowledge of the game's inner workings that we do now. For that reason, I would trust a sub optimal spec who has done their research over a FOTM good spec player...at least outside of very high-end progression.

[Deleted]

You have Molten Core Epic Items who are offset in order to do and Main Tank Neffarian , so it's wrong what you saying that there are no epics, there are still Epics Offset pieces in Molten Core and BWL itself + Epic BoE Shoulders World Drop + Thunderfury or at least MC Sword + trinkets from both BWL and MC , more than enough to survive the easy mode Neffarian .

You have no clue what you even expect , Blizzard is not Private Server , so this wont be Nostalrius where Bosses in raids doing 25% more Physical damage , surviving Neffarian is an easy mode and cake, especially that DeathBone set will be available from Day 1 , you can easy get more def cap and replace blues with Epics who doesn't offer defense but are strong with defensive stats!

What Gear Available are you talking about, you have no idea what Gear even Paladins do use ..... Even if there is no BWL , there will still be Pre Raid Gear enough to kill and clear Molten Core , especially the fact that Majority of MC Bosses doesn't even need Tank Gear, but FR gear!

Tier 1 for your garbage Warrior Tank is even weaker than the Blue Items from Pre Raid offset Gear, so sure feel free and go farm your Tier 1 , while as Paladin i will simple get all the gear before i step to MC , while you as Warrior will have to waste tons of time farming your Gear.

No , it's completely garbage mindset to say Paladins do have Gear issue, because they don't, until BWL release -Pre raid is more than enough , when BWL release - Gear from MC + BOE + BWL gear is more than enough for T2 !

You're talking about the late game itemization that was added in the later Vanilla patches. There was tons of blue gear added to 5 man dungeons and UBRS in later patches. At the start of Vanilla up to the end of the first year, there was wank gear for tanks. tier 1 was decent until this extra gear was added in. If Classic sticks to the original itemization, you won't see any decently gear prot pallys for at least a year. There is ofset epic tanking gear in MC... but the majority of it is shit. Tier 2 for warriors is way better than all of that garbage listed in that link and I'm not even tanking the set bonuses into account. Paladins don't have this luxury.... They have to rely on ofset pieces which are few and far between.

[blooderduki]

Again you are not even think or correct yourself on inaccurates.
1) There is no spell which will kill the warrior tank through shield wall, just non existent, so you are talking non sense here.
2) Do you know the range of aura's? 40 yards, you don't need to be anywhere near to apply your aura.
3) I do agree that paladins can shine with block value stat if they would have more of it in items, but since most of off set items have no block value at all, aside from shield/trinkets, you will have less of it with even +30% extra.
4) Go though the loot table and you will see how the shallow loot table is. I don't speak for preraid gear since it is identical to warriors.
Warriors has no rage starvation if you have tanked raids at least once in vanilla you would know it.
Mana issues for paladins are real since they can't actively generate threat on long fights since mana problems, only way to drink pot + demonic rune + tubers pretty much but even then i doubt it will be enough.
What a non sense about warrior threat generation since they scale really well with shield block value for shield slam ability.
Also i don't see how the paladins with higher items will generate more threat since they won't scale their spd since need to wear tanking gear without spelldamage in it, only source will be buffs and pots which are the same from tier1... so you are completely wrong here.

1- Deadly debuffs = dead , regardless of your "Shield Wall" , there are and they are many around Raid Bosses!
2- 30 yards , not 40!
3- Sapphiron Trinket itself provides lot more Block Value than whole your "Warrior Gear" thanks to extra 30% .
4- You are wrong , loot table is not shallow at all , loot is there and properly , it's you who have no clue what to even search!
Warriors have extremely big Rage starving problems when they get more gear, unless your experience is private servers only where Warriors do have infinite Rage generation!
Paladins never ever have mana issues - Judge of Wisdom , Seal of Wisdom ,Major Mana Pots, Demonic Runes, Innervate , etc etc , so i am sorry , you are 3000% Wrong!
How much would you get from Block Value for 1 ability!? Nonsense, Paladins scale with everything = Block+AP+SP , so you are wrong ,Warriors are extremely limited compare to paladins in regards to threats generation!
I don't need to use spell damage gear in order to tank as paladin , only Weapon (where you as warrior already use dps weap for threats) , weap ench + wizard oil+arcane elixir + should ench = big big big threats for Paladins , while warriors do nothing but a joke, not to mention Supreme Flask if Paladin use, your warrior will become junk and dust in regards to threats!

- - - Updated - - -

Ho ho ho, 330 DPS isn't gimped or holding back, everyone could do MAX DAMAGE WITH A PALADIN TANK.

Get out of here :P

Fixed for you , handling 1.3k dps as Prot Paladin!

- - - Updated - - -

You're talking about the late game itemization that was added in the later Vanilla patches. There was tons of blue gear added to 5 man dungeons and UBRS in later patches. At the start of Vanilla up to the end of the first year, there was wank gear for tanks. tier 1 was decent until this extra gear was added in. If Classic sticks to the original itemization, you won't see any decently gear prot pallys for at least a year. There is ofset epic tanking gear in MC... but the majority of it is shit. Tier 2 for warriors is way better than all of that garbage listed in that link and I'm not even tanking the set bonuses into account. Paladins don't have this luxury.... They have to rely on ofset pieces which are few and far between.

Sorry but even if Blizzard do miracle for you and use early Patch Gear = Tier 1 for Paladins offer defensive stats and defensive bonuses , which leads to Paladin Tank using Tier Set !

Stick to the real knowledge before you spread more of these fake news, you are clueless about Protection Paladins and you still try to spill more toxic and more fake knowledge to everyone , unfortunately.

[Deleted]

1- Deadly debuffs = dead , regardless of your "Shield Wall" , there are and they are many around Raid Bosses!
2- 30 yards , not 40!
3- Sapphiron Trinket itself provides lot more Block Value than whole your "Warrior Gear" thanks to extra 30% .
4- You are wrong , loot table is not shallow at all , loot is there and properly , it's you who have no clue what to even search!
Warriors have extremely big Rage starving problems when they get more gear, unless your experience is private servers only where Warriors do have infinite Rage generation!
Paladins never ever have mana issues - Judge of Wisdom , Seal of Wisdom ,Major Mana Pots, Demonic Runes, Innervate , etc etc , so i am sorry , you are 3000% Wrong!
How much would you get from Block Value for 1 ability!? Nonsense, Paladins scale with everything = Block+AP+SP , so you are wrong ,Warriors are extremely limited compare to paladins in regards to threats generation!
I don't need to use spell damage gear in order to tank as paladin , only Weapon (where you as warrior already use dps weap for threats) , weap ench + wizard oil+arcane elixir + should ench = big big big threats for Paladins , while warriors do nothing but a joke, not to mention Supreme Flask if Paladin use, your warrior will become junk and dust in regards to threats!

- - - Updated - - -





Fixed for you , handling 1.3k dps as Prot Paladin!

- - - Updated - - -



Sorry but even if Blizzard do miracle for you and use early Patch Gear = Tier 1 for Paladins offer defensive stats and defensive bonuses , which leads to Paladin Tank using Tier Set !

Stick to the real knowledge before you spread more of these fake news, you are clueless about Protection Paladins and you still try to spill more toxic and more fake knowledge to everyone , unfortunately.

Dude, the original tier 1 set for paladins was garbage for healing and tanking. Don't tell me it has defensive stats on it... Go and take a look at the gear and tell me what the hell it's supposed to be. Blizzard changed it because it wasn't good for any spec.

[AeneasBK]

Fixed for you , handling 1.3k dps as Prot Paladin!

Dude we determined earlier in the thread it took you 30 seconds to hit 10k threat. So that screenshot (lolol never a video because we can rip them apart) shows the fight has been going on for 100 seconds at least

33759/100 = 337 DPS.

Get out.

[Coldfrostzero]

Dude we determined earlier in the thread it took you 30 seconds to hit 10k threat. So that screenshot (lolol never a video because we can rip them apart) shows the fight has been going on for 100 seconds at least

33759/100 = 337 DPS.

Get out.

This thread isn't about trying to knock down what he is doing. Stop derailing it by trying to disprove what he is doing when he is showing it. DPS goes up and down on a fight and stating that it is 337 is clearly not understanding game mechanics nor is it understanding TPS. Some classes and had no threat dump and even casting a few spells was large amounts of aggro.

In a raid environment where damage doesn't exactly matter as there are almost no enrage mechanics in classic other than say Burning Rush and healer mana, you going "nuh uh" over and over again doesn't begin to raise an argument. Yes, there are a few fights where it would be extremely bad to have a Paladin main tank, but guess what? You usually had 4+ tanks in the guild that could main tank and 4-6 others who had the gear just in case, so it is covered.

Either you never played Classic or you have a very bad memory of how raiding worked.

[blooderduki]

Dude we determined earlier in the thread it took you 30 seconds to hit 10k threat. So that screenshot (lolol never a video because we can rip them apart) shows the fight has been going on for 100 seconds at least

33759/100 = 337 DPS.

Get out.

The fight was 35 seconds ,you can see it from the Fear Ward rebuffing on the chat log, first one is before pull , second is after pull .

33759 / 35 = 964 tps + the Holy Shield extra threats that are not registered on KTM (they never show , but they are there , because KTM is not accurate) .

[jackofwind]

Nobody ask anyone to wait before you could really dps , which leads your fact that your paladin was noob or you speak out of thin air without any knowledge about it , but you are completely wrong about what you just said !

Link a real fight you putz.

[AeneasBK]

This thread isn't about trying to knock down what he is doing. Stop derailing it by trying to disprove what he is doing when he is showing it. DPS goes up and down on a fight and stating that it is 337 is clearly not understanding game mechanics nor is it understanding TPS. Some classes and had no threat dump and even casting a few spells was large amounts of aggro.

All he's showing is a troll like ability to selectively ignore the questions put to him.

Just lol mate. DPS = Damage Per Second = Total Damage Done divided by Time it is done in. The point he is trying to make is that Paladins are viable. THE LEADING REASON THEY ARE NOT IS BECUASE DPS WILL HAVE TO SPEND 2/3rds OF THIER TIME AUTO-ATTACKING OR WANDING BECAUSE PALADIN THREAT IS PANTS. That is what he keeps trying to deny; and that is what we are shoving back in his face. Don't sit there and say you don't understand TPS. Lol.

In a raid environment where damage doesn't exactly matter as there are almost no enrage mechanics in classic other than say Burning Rush and healer mana, you going "nuh uh" over and over again doesn't begin to raise an argument. Yes, there are a few fights where it would be extremely bad to have a Paladin main tank, but guess what? You usually had 4+ tanks in the guild that could main tank and 4-6 others who had the gear just in case, so it is covered.

Yeah in Molten Core maybe there aren't any real enrages. You're not gonna get past Vael after MC tho so.

Either you never played Classic or you have a very bad memory of how raiding worked.

You're right I never raided in Vanilla. But then, 99% of the players who did, didn't have a clue what to do either. Now that players DO know what to do, Paladin tanks are EVEN LESS VIABLE. Hell DPS will have to gimp themselves even with a warrior tank. Telling them "Do that, but even more so" is just clown shoes.

But yeah, I guess if you want to talk inthe strictest sense, if you GM a guild and can persuade them all to do 1/2 their output (or just recruit clueless bads who can only do 1/2 their output when they try their hardest) you can make Paladin tank work. For the rest of the world, just no. And don't blame us for reacting to Captain Baddy; he's the one calling other people liars. It's one thing to say someone is wrong, saying they're lying is naturally gonna cause a more antagonistic reaction.

And tbh he's displaying very troll like abilities to selectively ignore the challenges put towards him. Like "MT a proper fight and remain mana efficient" gives you mana efficiency on a fight with a tonne of bonus threat, then when called out on that gives a screenshot of a boss on 70% and the paladin on 20% mana.

- - - Updated - - -

The fight was 35 seconds ,you can see it from the Fear Ward rebuffing on the chat log, first one is before pull , second is after pull .

33759 / 35 = 964 tps + the Holy Shield extra threats that are not registered on KTM (they never show , but they are there , because KTM is not accurate) .

SO on this fight you learned to triple your threat per second. If only you had video evidence and not a screenshot that you're "assuring" us was after 30 seconds, and not (as your OWN evidence from pages past shows quite explicitly) after about 100 seconds :P Otherwise I'd believe a thing you had to say. As it is you're full of shit

[Coldfrostzero]

All he's showing is a troll like ability to selectively ignore the questions put to him.

Just lol mate. DPS = Damage Per Second = Total Damage Done divided by Time it is done in. The point he is trying to make is that Paladins are viable. THE LEADING REASON THEY ARE NOT IS BECUASE DPS WILL HAVE TO SPEND 2/3rds OF THIER TIME AUTO-ATTACKING OR WANDING BECAUSE PALADIN THREAT IS PANTS. That is what he keeps trying to deny; and that is what we are shoving back in his face. Don't sit there and say you don't understand TPS. Lol.



Yeah in Molten Core maybe there aren't any real enrages. You're not gonna get past Vael after MC tho so.



You're right I never raided in Vanilla. But then, 99% of the players who did, didn't have a clue what to do either. Now that players DO know what to do, Paladin tanks are EVEN LESS VIABLE. Hell DPS will have to gimp themselves even with a warrior tank. Telling them "Do that, but even more so" is just clown shoes.

But yeah, I guess if you want to talk inthe strictest sense, if you GM a guild and can persuade them all to do 1/2 their output (or just recruit clueless bads who can only do 1/2 their output when they try their hardest) you can make Paladin tank work. For the rest of the world, just no. And don't blame us for reacting to Captain Baddy; he's the one calling other people liars. It's one thing to say someone is wrong, saying they're lying is naturally gonna cause a more antagonistic reaction.

And tbh he's displaying very troll like abilities to selectively ignore the challenges put towards him. Like "MT a proper fight and remain mana efficient" gives you mana efficiency on a fight with a tonne of bonus threat, then when called out on that gives a screenshot of a boss on 70% and the paladin on 20% mana.

- - - Updated - - -



SO on this fight you learned to triple your threat per second. If only you had video evidence and not a screenshot that you're "assuring" us was after 30 seconds, and not (as your OWN evidence from pages past shows quite explicitly) after about 100 seconds :P Otherwise I'd believe a thing you had to say. As it is you're full of shit

So you proved my point you never raided in Classic so you don't already know that DPS not only had periods of standing around and wanding or auto attacking anyway. Not to mention things like Lifetap for getting back mana or evocating which totally stopped you from attacking. If you were a bad mage and blew through your entire mana bar, evocated, and did it again, you'd be sitting there wanding. It happened.

There were times on fights like Razorgore where just casting 1 heal spell would aggro the entire room to you because of how threat worked and how tanks can't literally be everywhere at once. I got past Vael in BWL, btw. It was largely depending on the RNG factor of who got Burning Rush. If a bad string of it took out your tanks or your highest DPSers or your healers it was GG. Funny how I understand TPS and DPS in Classic when I went through it.

It isn't even close to how it was in BC onward where Threat largely took a backseat and nearly every class was given an actual aggro dump.

You are here trying to disprove something you have no fucking clue about.

[AeneasBK]

So you proved my point you never raided in Classic so you don't already know that DPS not only had periods of standing around and wanding or auto attacking anyway.

Stop dude. He's talking about Magmadar. He's linking videos to Magmadar.

330 DPS on MAgmadar as a warlock is shite.

[Delano]

Suboptimal is a moving target, and what people think is suboptimal is often not (Enhancement is in a pretty solid spot right now for example).

At any rate, if you even consider sitting people due to spec/class choice in anything but cutting edge mythic progression, you are an asshole and wasting everyone's time. Sub-Mythic (and even early Mythic) content is tuned to be forgiving toward raid comp, and the statistical differences in numbers between specs are likely lower than they've ever been.

[AeneasBK]

You are here trying to disprove something you have no fucking clue about.

Lol. You talk about heals aggroing the room on Razorgore. Adds aren't gonna be ALIVE on Razorgore, this isn't 2005 anymore. And you claim others don't know about what they speak.

That's the crux of this discussion. People are pretending that players are gonna be the same as they were 14 years ago. And they won't, and a prime example of that is that with the DPS output people are capable of (they were capable of it back then they just didn't know it) no one kites adds on Vael any more. You kill them as fast as they spawn. If DPS were as universally shit as they were in 2005 then maybe a really clued up Paladin tank would have worked. It DEFINITELY won't in 2019 without about a minute of threat generation ahead of DPS opening up. That you don't understand this is on you, don't get mad people are calling out your ignorance.

[Deleted]

Lol. You talk about heals aggroing the room on Razorgore. Adds aren't gonna be ALIVE on Razorgore, this isn't 2005 anymore. And you claim others don't know about what they speak.

That's the crux of this discussion. People are pretending that players are gonna be the same as they were 14 years ago. And they won't, and a prime example of that is that with the DPS output people are capable of (they were capable of it back then they just didn't know it) no one kites adds on Vael any more. You kill them as fast as they spawn. If DPS were as universally shit as they were in 2005 then maybe a really clued up Paladin tank would have worked. It DEFINITELY won't in 2019 without about a minute of threat generation ahead of DPS opening up. That you don't understand this is on you, don't get mad people are calling out your ignorance.

You're spot on dude.

[Coldfrostzero]

Lol. You talk about heals aggroing the room on Razorgore. Adds aren't gonna be ALIVE on Razorgore, this isn't 2005 anymore. And you claim others don't know about what they speak.

That's the crux of this discussion. People are pretending that players are gonna be the same as they were 14 years ago. And they won't, and a prime example of that is that with the DPS output people are capable of (they were capable of it back then they just didn't know it) no one kites adds on Vael any more. You kill them as fast as they spawn. If DPS were as universally shit as they were in 2005 then maybe a really clued up Paladin tank would have worked. It DEFINITELY won't in 2019 without about a minute of threat generation ahead of DPS opening up. That you don't understand this is on you, don't get mad people are calling out your ignorance.

So you're just digging a hole thinking you understand. Razorgore's adds don't die immediately. They have decent enough health pools and spawn at increasing rates. They changed the mechanics for solo raiding to make it easier. Not sure what your garbage private server has, but it isn't true to live. We used to stack casters and healers in the middle and have tanks pick up targets and burn them down, however threat is a thing and even healers could pull threat off tanks just because snap threat on warriors was abysmal at best and we're talking geared warrior tanks who know how to do their job.

With that you said, that means that TANKS and HEALERS would also have a better understand which is exactly that guy's point. He did the research and is performing the task. You're just being a troll and derailing my thread.

Adds on Vael? What the hell are you talking about?

[Gratlim]

Yep I would and I will.

Classic was about communauty and building great relationships on 1 server for me. I would take rets, ferals, enh etc as long as they know what they are doing. If they don't behave / don't try (AFKish waiting for boss loot), then I won't pick them anymore. Simple as that.

[AeneasBK]

Adds on Vael? What the hell are you talking about?

I will admit, that was a brainfart and I meant to type Razorgore, I went back and corrected it in the first line but guess I missed the second.

- - - Updated - - -

So you're just digging a hole thinking you understand. Razorgore's adds don't die immediately. They have decent enough health pools and spawn at increasing rates. They changed the mechanics for solo raiding to make it easier. Not sure what your garbage private server has, but it isn't true to live. We used to stack casters and healers in the middle and have tanks pick up targets and burn them down, however threat is a thing and even healers could pull threat off tanks just because snap threat on warriors was abysmal at best and we're talking geared warrior tanks who know how to do their job.

If you insist :eyeroll: When BWL releases on Classic the only adds living long enough to take a swing will be the dragonkin ones, mark my words