Current state of DK's (UH/Frost)

[Worloch]

I had to come in here to see what the hoopla was about as dk's are top in tanking and dps right now...sooo whats the dilly yo? wutcha ya'll complaining about? how can being top have any complaints?

I'm assuming you're referencing the Warcraft Logs Mythic aggregate stats.
You need to look at more data points than just that aggregate, as it can be misleading.

Looking at each boss specifically tells you more of the story. UH is mostly bottom to mid tier on each individual fight, excepting Zul and G'huun, where there are a whole *4* parses to go off. UH doesn't even have a single mythic parse for Mythrax. That taints the overall data.

And while I'm not one to dismiss non-boss damage as "padding", looking at the boss damage shows a much less rosy picture.

Look at the Heroic stats, where you have a much larger population of parses to draw from, and you get a different picture as well.

And that is all just about damage done, not how a rotation may be clunky, or how you may be forced in to certain talents to perform well, or how gameplay may feel bad (such as moving at relative snail speed, and constantly falling behind the group).

TLDR - If you're actually interested in what we're complaining about, take the time to get at least a little informed. If you're not actually interested, don't bother posting questions about it.

[Th3Scourge]

On its own yes (solid performance). Compared to other classes that excel in that role (Frost Mage, DH, Rogues, BM Hunters) - they're not up there. On top of that, Frost Mages have the same single-target as UH DK (with UH DK having the highest initial burst, possibly top 3 in the game) - the same applies to DH and BM Hunters, while Rogues are above and beyond what DK can do (or bring).

But as the poster above noted, if you spec for tons of AoE, your single-target does lack quite a bit - while being annoying to play with the mico-management of 3 resources, all the while DH simply presses a button and does more damage than you.

Unholy does great in M+, and their utility is great. Grip is probably the strongest form of utility in M+ (behind mass grip) and the ability to do 90% of your damage at range helps significantly considering there is so much movement in M+

I play Blood mostly so I don't see too many other DKs in my groups but occasionally go DPS (either frost or UH) for a break and have no issues competing with the other DPS in the group

[Kendros]

Unholy does great in M+, and their utility is great. Grip is probably the strongest form of utility in M+ (behind mass grip) and the ability to do 90% of your damage at range helps significantly considering there is so much movement in M+

I play Blood mostly so I don't see too many other DKs in my groups but occasionally go DPS (either frost or UH) for a break and have no issues competing with the other DPS in the group

No it doesnt, the damage outside of cds is garbage which makes dps on some trash packs very sketchy, not to mention damage on bosses without aotd, the utility to deal with ghuun adds is crap, specialy compared to DH/Rogue/Boomkin/Frost Mage, and the defensives are just bad for most situations. And i am a 380 UH main with 1.2k io blood OS for dungeons only, because unholy is pure garbage in dungeons.
It has no place in high keys, it just cannot compete with the DH/Rogue/Mage meta.

[boz0]

I had to come in here to see what the hoopla was about as dk's are top in tanking and dps right now...sooo whats the dilly yo? wutcha ya'll complaining about? how can being top have any complaints?

Blood DK are the best tank atm (and the incoming nerfs seem reasonable), but this thread is about UH and Frost. Frost seems to be top for raids at higher ilvls (375+, roughly), but they're nowhere near as good in M+, and have trouble getting into groups as dps.

[kran1um]

Blood DK are the best tank atm (and the incoming nerfs seem reasonable), but this thread is about UH and Frost. Frost seems to be top for raids at higher ilvls (375+, roughly), but they're nowhere near as good in M+, and have trouble getting into groups as dps.

Yes, I tried Sindy spec and it does great...sometimes, but I dont have her for the boss, or vice versa. Everything is viable. Hell even Shadow Priests, are they used, of course not, everyone playing easy mode Frost Mage, Rogue, Blood DK in top tier M+; but a DK is viable for casual 10-14s.

Theres alot more classes and specs in the same boat, DK's just have one of those oars.

Blood DK's are top dogs, by a huge margin in M+; FDK's are top dogs in Raids without effort except for timing Sindy; UH DK's are fine, not the best, but fine in M+ casuals - which looking at .io, all of us in here are with few exceptions.
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it just cannot compete with the DH/Rogue/Mage meta.

Not one other class can compete with those 3; DK's arent alone.

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Unholy does great in M+, and their utility is great. Grip is probably the strongest form of utility in M+ (behind mass grip) and the ability to do 90% of your damage at range helps significantly considering there is so much movement in M+

I play Blood mostly so I don't see too many other DKs in my groups but occasionally go DPS (either frost or UH) for a break and have no issues competing with the other DPS in the group

This guy gets it.

[Kendros]

Yes, I tried Sindy spec and it does great...sometimes, but I dont have her for the boss, or vice versa. Everything is viable. Hell even Shadow Priests, are they used, of course not, everyone playing easy mode Frost Mage, Rogue, Blood DK in top tier M+; but a DK is viable for casual 10-14s.

Theres alot more classes and specs in the same boat, DK's just have one of those oars.

Blood DK's are top dogs, by a huge margin in M+; FDK's are top dogs in Raids without effort except for timing Sindy; UH DK's are fine, not the best, but fine in M+ casuals - which looking at .io, all of us in here are with few exceptions.
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Not one other class can compete with those 3; DK's arent alone.

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This guy gets it.

At least warriors can pull massive aoe burst and amazing ST, Boomkins have massive consistent aoe with a shitload of utility a very viably alternative to mages, enh have an aoe stun, hex and purge and great damage overall, locks have portal, cookies and aoe stun also a very viable alternative for mages, we get jack shit. The other classes that also bring nothing are rets and shadow and arguably monk.

[Th3Scourge]

At least warriors can pull massive aoe burst and amazing ST, Boomkins have massive consistent aoe with a shitload of utility a very viably alternative to mages, enh have an aoe stun, hex and purge and great damage overall, locks have portal, cookies and aoe stun also a very viable alternative for mages, we get jack shit. The other classes that also bring nothing are rets and shadow and arguably monk.

We bring Death Grip. I don't think I would trade any other utility spell/ability for Death Grip

[Kendros]

We bring Death Grip. I don't think I would trade any other utility spell/ability for Death Grip

Ah you mean the ability thats only good for one affix and one extra interrupt AND is on gcd. K.

[Th3Scourge]

Ah you mean the ability thats only good for one affix and one extra interrupt AND is on gcd. K.

Yep, that one. And can interrupt hard casts, shave seconds off each pull, pull in boss adds etc, pull in a ranged mob

[Cytraz]

Ah you mean the ability thats only good for one affix and one extra interrupt AND is on gcd. K.

That is exactly what he means. Death grip is probably the best spell for M+

[kran1um]

At least warriors can pull massive aoe burst and amazing ST, Boomkins have massive consistent aoe with a shitload of utility a very viably alternative to mages, enh have an aoe stun, hex and purge and great damage overall, locks have portal, cookies and aoe stun also a very viable alternative for mages, we get jack shit. The other classes that also bring nothing are rets and shadow and arguably monk.

If you going after utility the MDI's only care about Slows, CC, Aoe stuns, stealth, speed and getting shit out of sanquine. True a DK doesnt bring much but uncontrollable awesome aoe that pulls whole rooms. But Cistara is #5 DPS in the world so it can be done. But most of the dps dks go blood for M+, its that easy.

Difference between a warrior and dk is that the warrior is 20x faster, can control their aoe are the main reasons, I wouldnt say they have better ST than a DK.

Boomkins are brought for rebirth. that aoe silence on a 12hour CD isnt a good as people think. when you want it up its not, when its up you dont need it. In storms, boomkins are more hindrance than help.

monks bring alot of utility to the table fyi, they just dont bring the pew pew - talk about a class in need of dps help, whomever thought of a dps class needing to taunt to do dps should be fired. RoP is insane for your healers (and tanks sometimes), disable for that pesky runner, aoe stun is solid, ridding poisons is good, oh and that buff thingy, I wouldnt call a monk bringing 'nothing', unless is solely dps, then yes they bring nothing.

Re-roll you obviously hate the DK for M+, they are viable but bottom tier. if you want to run after numbers in M+ high keys run a rogue, if you want to run after numbers in Raids - well.. a DK.

[ymn]

If you going after utility the MDI's only care about Slows, CC, Aoe stuns, stealth, speed and getting shit out of sanquine. True a DK doesnt bring much but uncontrollable awesome aoe that pulls whole rooms. But Cistara is #5 DPS in the world so it can be done. But most of the dps dks go blood for M+, its that easy.

Difference between a warrior and dk is that the warrior is 20x faster, can control their aoe are the main reasons, I wouldnt say they have better ST than a DK.

Re-roll you obviously hate the DK for M+, they are viable but bottom tier. if you want to run after numbers in M+ high keys run a rogue, if you want to run after numbers in Raids - well.. a DK.

Apart from those facts, this is why we have a "thread" going on about what's wrong with DKs. No one here is saying that DKs are Shadow Priest level.

If Sindragosa was hard-nerfed - DKs would remain the bottom of the food chain in every aspect - we literally have one talent that is keeping DKs on top (similar to S2M Shadow Priests at the start of Legion).

Using "well, just play Blood" for M+ is not really fair - as you can simply tell a Shadow Priest (lol, go Disc, they best healer, y u complain). Most players, statistically, dislike playing Tanks, or do not find them interesting at all - as it is a very big responsibility and if you make a mistake, it's a wipe, if DPS make a mistake, they flame the tank for being too shit (pug-talk, and trust me on this one). On top of that, they are nerfing the only overperforming tank spec (in M+ - DKs are not that great in raids), discouraging players to play tanks (played as Protection, my god is that a horrible class).

[Deleted]

This is a very similar thread back in Legion, the only exception is that people could tie it down to legendaries - improve the interaction with legendaries and the class gets somewhat fixed, Frost DKs who were lucky enough to go into Nighthold with the helm and belt were on top of the world, literally, it was the top melee spec. Tomb comes around the corner and the new meta for DKs was unholy, with the legendary shoulders and chest. Fast forward to BFA, I've barely touched unholy except doing some casual PvP - but it sounds like more than just a numbers tune. At least we have 2 specs to play around with, when Unholy gets some love it would be nice to have a change of pace. Then we will be back to the whole Frost debate with obliteration again.

[RuneDK]

Honestly my main gripe is the amount of downtime. While I havent played blood much since leveling and doing m0s and haven't touched unholy this is primarily about frost....When im not in the middle of BoS the spec feels very bland...too much downtime sitting there waiting for 3-4 seconds waiting to hit an ability....then for no RA procs, no rime procs on obliterate and just sitting there again since you only get 20 RP from obliterate. With this slowdown of game speed they should consider reverting Frost Strike back to 20 RP. I stopped playing though because of this downtime. It gets boring.

[Deleted]

LoL They are buffing enhancement shaman again, while unholy sits at garbage tier.

[Bisque]

So basically if i dont like bos playstyle im screwed on single target

Yup, this and the atrocious downtime when your just sitting there waiting for something to "light up". Look I have no objection against BOS but I wish it was not the "ONLY CHOICE" but here we are. Blizz once again is balancing frost around BOS, so as long as BOS is doing good then Frost dks are "ok".

Frankly I can't wait till the old talent rework come next expansion.

[Clash the DK]

Frankly I can't wait till the old talent rework come next expansion.

Care to elaborate? What makes you so sure about this?

[Bisque]

Care to elaborate? What makes you so sure about this?

Honestly I am just assuming there is going to be the usual talent rejiggery that we get before every new expansion. Granted I don't see them making big changes to frost but I would hope that we no longer live and die by BOS uptime.

[Th3Scourge]

Yeah, that was why I left out SS/CS because of the cleave coefficient to scaling with buffing it. I think our biggest gain for single target could come from:

1. Death Coil. It is purely a single target spell, increasing the damage output per runic power also leads to bigger choices on when epidemic should be used.
2. Gargoyle more competitive. Right now the default is just Unholy Frenzy in the 100 tier because there is no competition. If they changed the spell to be what Dark Arbiter was then I think that would fix things. Bursty yes, but the damage is insane when pulled off right.
3. Pet damage. Increasing pet damage is essentially free dps because of the uptime.

I'd prefer option 1 and 2 compared to increasing pet damage because it's more engaging.

So looks like they eventually buffed Death Coil

[th3q]

It's pretty OP.