sylvanas's secret plan: raising azeroth as undead

[vsb]

we have all kinds of horde players wondering what could make them betray sylvanas and obviously this is the kind of thing thats gonna make you turn on your warchief whoever you are.

What? If that would be true, I would support Sylvanas so much! It's a so genius move! Undead Titan would crush both Light and Void, removing main villains of the universe! That's awesome!

[Evilfish]

It's got nothing to do with liking the character, quit twisting the subject. It's about who started what first.

And mining Azerite despite Magni's warning is quite the crime, ya know...

So who started it first? It was Greymane. If I recall correctly everything was sorted out at the end of MoP. Greymane couldn't let it go so he attacked her in Legion using the confusion at the Broken Shore. And from there on she responded. So please, don't pull that shit with me, ok?

[TheFirstOnes]

So who started it first? It was Greymane. If I recall correctly everything was sorted out at the end of MoP. Greymane couldn't let it go so he attacked her in Legion using the confusion at the Broken Shore. And from there on she responded. So please, don't pull that shit with me, ok?

1. I was meaning Post-Legion, Pre-BFA. You have yet to provide logical evidence supporting that the Alliance started this war first.

And 2. Sylvanas attacked Gilneas under Garrosh's orders, yet also did most of her shit on her own. Therefore, her entire attack led to her killing Greymane's Son, taking down most of Gilneas VIA the Plague, while also pissing Greymane off to the very end. She made Greymane, therefore she did her shit.

Oh, and it was confirmed that Sylvanas was starting shady shit in Stormheim before Greymane even took action against her. So, therefore, you're already wrong. How do I know this, you may ask? Go to Azsuna, pick up a note by the Kul'tiran/Undead slave area, and go from there.

- - - Updated - - -

She won't be.
And the sooner you accept that the sooner this subforum can actually be about the lore instead of some Alliance jerkfest.

No, he called her just a "bitch" because she spoke up against the tyrant. He didn't like it when people talked back to him.

To be fair here, she was meddling with the balance of Life/Death, here. And Garrosh only truly became a tyrant during MoP.

[Evilfish]

1. I was meaning Post-Legion, Pre-BFA. You have yet to provide logical evidence supporting that the Alliance started this war first.

And 2. Sylvanas attacked Gilneas under Garrosh's orders, yet also did most of her shit on her own. Therefore, her entire attack led to her killing Greymane's Son, taking down most of Gilneas VIA the Plague, while also pissing Greymane off to the very end. She made Greymane, therefore she did her shit.

Oh, and it was confirmed that Sylvanas was starting shady shit in Stormheim before Greymane even took action against her. So, therefore, you're already wrong. How do I know this, you may ask? Go to Azsuna, pick up a note by the Kul'tiran/Undead slave area, and go from there.

- - - Updated - - -



To be fair here, she was meddling with the balance of Life/Death, here. And Garrosh only truly became a tyrant during MoP.

Wait a second, are you asking me to ignore past events cause it does not make your point? It does not work like that. There's nothing logical to prove since it's about the events that occured in the game story, go ask the developers for logic. The fact is that the Horde and the Alliance settled their differences in MoP. Minus a conflict in Ashran started between the archeologists there was no conflict to speak of until Greymane attacked in Stormheim.

Shit, maybe Sylvanas was plotting to sexually assault Anduin for all I know, the FACT is that she was attacked without any provocation by the Alliance military her attack on the Alliance didn't come out of the blue as much as you'd like it.

[TheFirstOnes]

Wait a second, are you asking me to ignore past events cause it does not make your point? It does not work like that. There's nothing logical to prove since it's about the events that occured in the game story, go ask the developers for logic. The fact is that the Horde and the Alliance settled their differences in MoP. Minus a conflict in Ashran started between the archeologists there was no conflict to speak of until Greymane attacked in Stormheim.

Shit, maybe Sylvanas was plotting to sexually assault Anduin for all I know, the FACT is that she was attacked without any provocation by the Alliance military her attack on the Alliance didn't come out of the blue as much as you'd like it.

They never settled anything. Varian just let the Horde go for until they made another move like Garrosh again. In fact, tensions were higher than they ever were once War Crimes happened. However, due to the Pandaren's "peaceful trial against Garrosh", none of them made an instant attack both on each-other, as well as on Garrosh...

"Shit, maybe Sylvanas was plotting to sexually assault Anduin for all I know, the FACT is that she was attacked without any provocation by the Alliance military her attack on the Alliance didn't come out of the blue as much as you'd like it."

You do realize she was trying to become immortal, VIA by bargaining with a literal death goddess so she can not only take the Aegis for herself, but also have an Infinite Val'kyr supply, while also pissing off our only help against the Legion on Stormheim to the literal brink, right?

Genn knew this, but didn't really care. He was just glad he could finally have a justified reason at attacking Sylvanas once more, despite Anduin's warnings.

However, justified or not, Sylvanas did try to do some shady shit, and she did ultimately pay the price for it...

[Evilfish]

They never settled anything. Varian just let the Horde go for until they made another move like Garrosh again. In fact, tensions were higher than they ever were once War Crimes happened. However, due to the Pandaren's "peaceful trial against Garrosh", none of them made an instant attack both on each-other, as well as on Garrosh...

"Shit, maybe Sylvanas was plotting to sexually assault Anduin for all I know, the FACT is that she was attacked without any provocation by the Alliance military her attack on the Alliance didn't come out of the blue as much as you'd like it."

You do realize she was trying to become immortal, VIA by bargaining with a literal death goddess so she can not only take the Aegis for herself, but also have an Infinite Val'kyr supply, while also pissing off our only help against the Legion on Stormheim to the literal brink, right?

Genn knew this, but didn't really care. He was just glad he could finally have a justified reason at attacking Sylvanas once more, despite Anduin's warnings.

However, justified or not, Sylvanas did try to do some shady shit, and she did ultimately pay the price for it...

So if nothing was settled then what was that after Siege of Orgrimmar? Why were the factions collaborating to fight the Legion?

So YOU think nothing happened after SoO, YOU think she has to pay some debt to you. Sorry that is not a compelling argument and it's a tired mode of crying about the Horde. So let me ask you something I never asked an Alliance boi before --- can you please swallow your virtual pride and allow us to keep one of our characters that we may like but you don't? Pretty please?

[vertigo12]

What? If that would be true, I would support Sylvanas so much! It's a so genius move! Undead Titan would crush both Light and Void, removing main villains of the universe! That's awesome!

So far there is still no undead titan. If Agus is a death titan then the pantheon is complete and balanced.


Fel=Sargeras
Argus = Death
Azeroth= Undead

[TheFirstOnes]

So if nothing was settled then what was that after Siege of Orgrimmar? Why were the factions collaborating to fight the Legion?

So YOU think nothing happened after SoO, YOU think she has to pay some debt to you. Sorry that is not a compelling argument and it's a tired mode of crying about the Horde. So let me ask you something I never asked an Alliance boi before --- can you please swallow your virtual pride and allow us to keep one of our characters that we may like but you don't? Pretty please?

Yeah. Also, you do realize that, with the Legion, the factions needed to gain a temporal peace, due to it working so well the last time, right? Afterwards, the conflict between the factions would've resulted in a war anyway. There was really no "temporal" peace going around, despite those claims being made. The Horde and Alliance were still at it during WoD...

- - - Updated - - -

What? If that would be true, I would support Sylvanas so much! It's a so genius move! Undead Titan would crush both Light and Void, removing main villains of the universe! That's awesome!

Except the Undead Titan would only fuel the Void's corruption into Azeroth even more...

Therefore, making a Void Infused Undead Titan...

Do you see the problem here? Also, wasn't it confirmed like...a week ago, that Undeath fuels the Void?

- - - Updated - - -

"can you please swallow your virtual pride and allow us to keep one of our characters that we may like but you don't?"

See, you want the character to stay alive. But you don't want the character to actually change, and/or be like by the majority. In the game, as well as IRL, not many people like Sylvanas. And she has over-stayed her welcome. She's a WC3 character who finished her job at defeating the Lich King. Her dying would be a completion, if you ask me...

But, nope. Let's milk her more, cause fan service. Bet ya she'll be the next Kerrigan now, as well...

[vsb]

Except the Undead Titan would only fuel the Void's corruption into Azeroth even more...

Therefore, making a Void Infused Undead Titan...

Do you see the problem here? Also, wasn't it confirmed like...a week ago, that Undeath fuels the Void?

What? Void does not like undeath. It does not like it so much that it considers it as its main threat. Undead do not belong to living, so Old Gods can't influence them. Undead to not belong to dead, so Old Gods can't use them too. Undeath is a genius Eredar invention, probably the best gift to world from the Legion and we must embrace it to fight old gods and light gods (or whatever they are called, they are just as evil).

[Feanoro]

Void does not like undeath. It does not like it so much that it considers it as its main threat.

Aren't half-assed retcons that go against everything we've been shown pre-BFA fun?

[Deleted]

That's not a secret. She hates all life.

[Evilfish]

Yeah. Also, you do realize that, with the Legion, the factions needed to gain a temporal peace, due to it working so well the last time, right? Afterwards, the conflict between the factions would've resulted in a war anyway. There was really no "temporal" peace going around, despite those claims being made. The Horde and Alliance were still at it during WoD...

But Sylvanas started it by responding to attacks against her. Ok, that makes it perfectly clear. But hey, anything to kill Sylvanas right?

I'm curious if we, the Horde can use the same crap to kill Jaina Proudmoore.

[TheFirstOnes]

What? Void does not like undeath. It does not like it so much that it considers it as its main threat. Undead do not belong to living, so Old Gods can't influence them. Undead to not belong to dead, so Old Gods can't use them too. Undeath is a genius Eredar invention, probably the best gift to world from the Legion and we must embrace it to fight old gods and light gods (or whatever they are called, they are just as evil).

Except the Void never considered Undeath itself as a threat. If anything, the whispers Alleria was getting stated that Sylvanas needed to die, since HER death magics would be an annoyance to the Void...

Also, the Old Gods and their followers have wielded Death Magics before. Hell, ICC was made out of Yogg'saron's blood. And he's the "God of Death".

[vsb]

Except the Void never considered Undeath itself as a threat. If anything, the whispers Alleria was getting stated that Sylvanas needed to die, since HER death magics would be an annoyance to the Void...

Also, the Old Gods and their followers have wielded Death Magics before. Hell, ICC was made out of Yogg'saron's blood. And he's the "God of Death".

Death =/= Undeath. It seems that some entities have power over dead, and probably Yogg have ultimate power over dead, unless his "god of death" is just a meaningless title (honestly I never saw anything about death related to Yogg Saron, his servants seem to be alive but mad). But he does not have power over undead, that's why Arthas wasn't influenced by his whispers even inside citadel built from old god blood.

[TheFirstOnes]

But Sylvanas started it by responding to attacks against her. Ok, that makes it perfectly clear. But hey, anything to kill Sylvanas right?

I'm curious if we, the Horde can use the same crap to kill Jaina Proudmoore.

You mean the same Jaina who got talked down from destroying Orgrimmar? The same Jaina who only took down Blood Elf soldiers at Dalaran? The same Jaina who was all for peace before Garrosh literally destroyed everything she loved right in front of her?

Also, realize that Sylvanas was never attacked, other than in Stormheim, and that was due to Genn having an actual reason to do so, despite Anduin's "warning" not to.

Calia fucked up, but she also went against Anduin's rule, and wasn't with the Alliance on that. However, in that moment, Sylvanas instantly killed everyone there, which seems like a rather rash move on her part. Even worse when you realize that no one talked her down on burning Teldrassil. Unlike with Jaina...

Oh, and if Sylvanas wanted to "respond" to the attacks against her. Then destroying the Night Elves would be the last thing you'd want to do, considering they did nothing to her before hand...

- - - Updated - - -

Death =/= Undeath. It seems that some entities have power over dead, and probably Yogg have ultimate power over dead, unless his "god of death" is just a meaningless title (honestly I never saw anything about death related to Yogg Saron, his servants seem to be alive but mad). But he does not have power over undead, that's why Arthas wasn't influenced by his whispers even inside citadel built from old god blood.

Undeath's literally Death magic though. You're basically just reanimating the Dead to your will...

Arthas, the Lich King, has the Undead by his side. But that's due to Death and Void Magics. Sylvanas also wields Void Magics too. It's just not as big a scale as with Alleria...

- - - Updated - - -

So, Undeath, Death, and Void do go hand and hand together...

[vsb]

Undeath's literally Death magic though. You're basically just reanimating the Dead to your will...

Forsaken, death knights and many other undead creatures have free will and it seems that they keep their "soul". So it's not exactly reanimating dead corpse. It's a different form of living.

[TheFirstOnes]

Forsaken, death knights and many other undead creatures have free will and it seems that they keep their "soul". So it's not exactly reanimating dead corpse. It's a different form of living.

Except they all have 1 thing in common, they were all reanimated in some way...

[Evilfish]

You mean the same Jaina who got talked down from destroying Orgrimmar? The same Jaina who only took down Blood Elf soldiers at Dalaran? The same Jaina who was all for peace before Garrosh literally destroyed everything she loved right in front of her?

Also, realize that Sylvanas was never attacked, other than in Stormheim, and that was due to Genn having an actual reason to do so, despite Anduin's "warning" not to.

Calia fucked up, but she also went against Anduin's rule, and wasn't with the Alliance on that. However, in that moment, Sylvanas instantly killed everyone there, which seems like a rather rash move on her part. Even worse when you realize that no one talked her down on burning Teldrassil. Unlike with Jaina...

Oh, and if Sylvanas wanted to "respond" to the attacks against her. Then destroying the Night Elves would be the last thing you'd want to do, considering they did nothing to her before hand...

Yeah, I mean the same Jaina. I'm sure I'll find something childish and moronic to use as justification to off her.

And what was Genn's rason? There was no hostility between the factions at that moment. Why was it his business to interfere with official Horde business? Genn might have had a reason to attack her, but it had nothing to do with what she was doing and more to do with what she did. So kindly cut the crap. You aren't fooling anyone especially those who did the god damned quest where he and Rodgers are clearly and without any interpretation going in gung ho.

And again, Calia had her own personal reasons to attempt to usurp Sylvanas. Sylvanas however simply killed off the traitors as they were trying to switch sides. And this is where Golden's guild trip Horde writing comes in, cause in the end the Forsaken that were killed off in the respective book were betraying and whatever Calia's intentions were, she tried to usurp Sylvanas who was the RIGHTFUL leader of the Forsaken.

So it appears that Anduin is either entirely incompetent or he's out to get her which are reasonable assumptions based on the evidence, we know it's not, well maybe he's kind of incompetent. So she attacks instead and she goes for the most powerful position the Alliance has in Kalimdor, that was not stupid since the end game was to piss off the Alliance. While the burning of that tree was not planned, the target being Malfurion, I don't think the occupation would have been much better, especially since the main force were orcs and forsaken and they are known for their principles right? So whichever choice it would have been made it still would have placed her under the same light cause the end game is to make Sylvanas as evil as it's possible to justify killing her.

Well if you fellas get to kill Sylvanas, I want to kill Jaina cause otherwise it's Alliance bias.

[TheFirstOnes]

"And what was Genn's rason? There was no hostility between the factions at that moment."

This is wrong. There was a ton of hostility. Did you not play WoD? And also, Genn's "reason" was the letter Alliance players gave to one of the Worgen in Dalaran, talking about the shit she's planning in Stormheim.

"And again, Calia had her own personal reasons to attempt to usurp Sylvanas. Sylvanas however simply killed off the traitors as they were trying to switch sides. And this is where Golden's guild trip Horde writing comes in, cause in the end the Forsaken that were killed off in the respective book were betraying and whatever Calia's intentions were, she tried to usurp Sylvanas who was the RIGHTFUL leader of the Forsaken."

They only sided with her so they could reunite with their families again. And besides, Anduin never intended on Calia doing that shit. She basically went rogue at that moment. And also, I don't doubt that she's a good leader for the Forsaken. However, she's NOT a good leader for the Horde.

And it's obvious I want Sylvanas dead. But it's not because i'm an Alliance player. Big shocker, but one of my mains is a Forsaken Warlock. I think she's overstayed her welcome. And I much rather have Nathanos, than her at this rate.

"So she attacks instead and she goes for the most powerful position the Alliance has in Kalimdor, that was not stupid since the end game was to piss off the Alliance."

No? The end goal was to weaken the Alliance's grasp of Kalimdor, and stop another war from happening. However, the problem occurs when you realize the original plan was to bring no survivors, conquer Kalimdor, and trap Malfurion. Meanwhile, Saurfang had the right idea of capturing Kalimdor, while also keeping Civilians alive, and giving them the chance of surrendering before any real damage was done. While I hate Saurfang's blissful honor talk, he did do some good shit pre-8.0.

"I don't think the occupation would have been much better, especially since the main force were orcs and forsaken and they are known for their principles right?"

Except they had way more than just the Forsaken and Orcs with them as well. In fact, Sylvanas was only accompanied by the Forsaken, and I think Blood Elves (And/or Goblins). While Saurfang was accompanied by the other races.

"So whichever choice it would have been made it still would have placed her under the same light cause the end game is to make Sylvanas as evil as it's possible to justify killing her."

She had already won though. Tyrande and Malfurion left. All she had to do was occupy the Tree, capture the civilians, release them so they can crawl back to Stormwind, and win. However, what does she do? She gets upset cause Saurfang lost, and she gets pissed cause a Night Elf talked her down. Therefore, she basically demands the Tree to be burned down...

If you really wanted a faction war, you could've at least done what the plan originally was. Therefore, giving a better light towards the Horde, cause they were only doing what they did to gain better reach of Kalimdor, while also helping out the Horde's supply/ranks in general. Therefore giving more citizens wood, food, water, as well as a better life-style for the people there, at Kalimdor. And it'll also give the Alliance a more "morally-greyness" factor to them, because of their rash attack against the Horde, despite them not knowing the true reasoning behind Teldrassil's occupation...

That's what I wanted. But, nope. You decide to burn the Tree, like the dipshit you are...

[Evilfish]

snip

Here's the dialogue between Graymane and Rodgers:

ky Admiral Rogers says: Stormheim is home to one of the Pillars of Creation - the [Aegis of Aggramar].
Sky Admiral Rogers says: Vrykul legends speak of a trial - to conquer this trial is prove one's worth and lay claim to the Aegis.
Sky Admiral Rogers says: Impressive, aren't they? The new guns could bag a wyvern at full speed from three hundred meters. Go ahead, have a look.
Sky Admiral Rogers says: Our official orders are to escort you to Stormheim and ensure your success on this trial.
Sky Admiral Rogers says: Unofficially, however, we have another mission...
Sky Admiral Rogers says: The 7th Legion. The toughest men and women the Alliance have to offer. They, too, have come on direct orders from the king.
Sky Admiral Rogers says: Three days ago, the Forsaken fleet set sail from Durotar, heading straight for the Broken Isles. We think Sylvanas Windrunner herself may be among them.
Sky Admiral Rogers says: We are to track them from a safe distance. We may engage, but only if the situation demands.
Sky Admiral Rogers says: I strongly suspect the situation will demand it.
Genn Greymane says: It had better.
Genn Greymane says: I am not in the habit of tracking prey unless I intend on killing it.
Sky Admiral Rogers says: Preparations are nearly complete. Please make yourselves comfortable.

This is what a seek and destroy mission looks like. If Greymane really was looking out of the greater good he could have done a better job at sabotaging her mission. You seem the expert on smart and dumb moves, you tell me.

And traitors are traitors this wasn't about the evil Queen keeping the poor peasants from happiness. Even through Golden's writing it's shown Sylvanas actually takes all measures to discourage any acts of betrayal but they do it anyway. I'm guessing she didn't make up those rules just to sound cool. But shit went down and it counts as a second attempt on her leadership, less direct but it's there. A direct attack and an attempt to usurp her so she's supposed to what? Let it go?... and you cry that she's stupid for attacking Teldrassil.

And yeah, I know you fellas REALLY want Sylvanas dead, you'd say anything to make that happen, you'd pull anything out of your bums if it meant the death of that character, which is why I'm really skeptical about your posts.

So let's cut the shit cause I'm getting really bored with you. You want Sylvanas dead, that's fine. I want Jaina dead. I don't have any actual reason other than she's one of your oldest and most liked characters, but I'm sure Blizz can accomodate me. Let's exchange deaths. A Warcraft III character for another. Fair, yes?