8.1 Destro buffs

[burek]

I think 2-3 extra things from that list would be enough.

Why? What's the point of even more abilities? Why do we need 28 instead of 25?

We have way too many abilities already. A game like diablo works with 6 abilities, why would wow need 5 times as many?

[Gaidax]

Some people have this desire to play piano and for some reason confuse such gameplay with good design, like that "Cataclysm peak of class design" person last page.

I guess game such big as WoW can afford to placate these people, but this should be done via talents as an option only or with specs which are from the get go setup as such, which Destruction is certainly not.

[Warning]

Why? What's the point of even more abilities? Why do we need 28 instead of 25?

We have way too many abilities already. A game like diablo works with 6 abilities, why would wow need 5 times as many?

Because it just turns out the game was more fun to me when we had more options. Obviously this is a subjective thing you don't have to agree with. I could also bounce the question right back at you and ask why 20 and not 3? It's just something learned from trying different versions of the game. Why Diablo works with fewer abilities is because it's a different type of game. It's challenge isn't a tactical one like WoW's, Diablo is mainly about cursor aiming and positioning. It also doesn't offer the same replay ability. There's fun in the simplicity and though some depth may be found in combining different sets of gear it fundamentally it offers a different type of fun.

[Gaidax]

Because it just turns out the game was more fun to me when we had more options. Obviously this is a subjective thing you don't have to agree with. I could also bounce the question right back at you and ask why 20 and not 3? It's just something learned from trying different versions of the game. Why Diablo works with fewer abilities is because it's a different type of game. It's challenge isn't a tactical one like WoW's, Diablo is mainly about cursor aiming and positioning. It also doesn't offer the same replay ability. There's fun in the simplicity and though some depth may be found in combining different sets of gear it fundamentally it offers a different type of fun.

Then why the insistence on making more shit baseline and ruin it for other people who don't exactly enjoy a soup of abilities?

You have talents to customize your gameplay all you want for your "depth", there is Shadowburn, Teleport, Soul Fire, CDF and what not right there - take it and have your tactical enjoyment then?

Why mess with what I want by making all that shit baseline? I prefer clean slate specs which can be built upon and not some random soup of abilities just to boost keybinds amount, gotta live with the fact that there are also people like me.

[Warning]

Then why the insistence on making more shit baseline and ruin it for other people who don't exactly enjoy a soup of abilities?

You have talents to customize your gameplay all you want for your "depth", there is Shadowburn, Teleport, Soul Fire, CDF and what not right there - take it and have your tactical enjoyment then?

Why mess with what I want by making all that shit baseline? I prefer clean slate specs which can be built upon and not some random soup of abilities just to boost keybinds amount, gotta live with the fact that there are also people like me.

There's definitely a balance there and I think this is actually a good argument (and I'm sure its no coincidence since I've made it against you in the past). But it's a subjective thing. What to you feels like a clean slate spec feels to me like its missing something. I actually think dps rotation wise I can get behind the clean slate thing because we have okay ST and AoE tools at a baseline, but when it comes to utility in PVP I feel like its not so much a clean slate as it is a car missing a few crucial pieces.

The current remedy/bandaid then is to add those via PVP honor talents but unfortunately because Chaos bolt damage is a certain way in PVE we have to lock in one of those slots just to get its damage to an acceptable PVP value. We also lack survivability vs melee as well as mobility so Entrenched in Flame is another lock in just to have a chance to kite or keep people in place. That leaves one PVP talent slot where we have a degree of choice, and really it feels like it isn't enough.

I know you don't care much about PVP which explains the viewpoint somewhat. At the same time I wonder if it would really hurt your gameplay in any way if say Curse of Weakness and Demonic Teleport were baseline in your spellbook and you could choose between Darkfury/Coil/Howl at 75 instead.

I'm also not just adding them for keybinds sake, but because the current PVP meta is too team composition specific for my taste. I preferred the time where the setup you faced didn't matter that much because you always had sufficient tools to deal with anything thrown at you if you were good enough. In the pruned world that often isn't the case, and certain setups will counter you hard because you lack the tools to deal with them.

[Gaidax]

I don't get how whatever you said has something to do with "No baseline curses, no shadowflame, no fel flame, no shadowburn, no soulburn, no baseline port".

Most of that you can get from non-PvP talents just fine and you have your curse as PvP talent (and buffed in 8.1 too, btw). If you have some PvP-specific grievances then what does that have to do with adding bunch of trash baseline? PvP issues are solved by PvP balancing and talent balancing, not by piling on stuff baseline to mess with everyone who do not even want that.

As a whole talents serve both as an ability for you to customize your character and also as a limiter to prevent BS from going too high, so pick your talents accordingly and instead of asking unreasonable things like to make half a dozen abilities baseline - ask for a more reasonable one, such has as PvP tuning for CB modifier.


I mean, you could instead you know, say what I and others say and ask for "talent balance", which also includes PvP. That is quite a lot more reasonable request.

[Baconeggcheese]

Why MoP design had to change? Because it gave birth to S-tier specs with quite literally no weaknesses that shat on everyone else.

Did we play the same game? All 3 specs had clear strengths and weaknesses, what are you even on about?

There is no mechanical state of any spec in this game that can't be elevated or destroyed by tuning, so this is absolute nonsense.

[Warning]

Did we play the same game? All 3 specs had clear strengths and weaknesses, what are you even on about?

There is no mechanical state of any spec in this game that can't be elevated or destroyed by tuning, so this is absolute nonsense.

Agreed, nothing about MoP destro was so deeply broken that minor number changes couldn't fix it, and we didn't have to put our own class together like an ikea cabinet back then either, because most of our utility was baseline. It's weird how you've praised it as the ideal design so often but putting back a few of the baseline tools we had back then suddenly is adding back "trash". It's like you have a split personality and both of them argue whenever they can.

[Tramzh]

returning old shadowburn and make it baseline + make portal baseline would make destro a total garbage spec and they are completely unreasonable requests i agree XD

imo destro is designed to be a braindead turret spec with no mobility dont change it guys or i might have to stop watching anime on my second monitor while raiding mythic!!!!!!!11111111111

[Baconeggcheese]

returning old shadowburn and make it baseline + make portal baseline would make destro a total garbage spec and they are completely unreasonable requests i agree XD

imo destro is designed to be a braindead turret spec with no mobility dont change it guys or i might have to stop watching anime on my second monitor while raiding mythic!!!!!!!11111111111

I could never do this, I gotta watch mine sub'd. The american voice acting is too cringey, its much better reading it like an animated comic.

[Deleted]

Some people have this desire to play piano and for some reason confuse such gameplay with good design, like that "Cataclysm peak of class design" person last page.

I guess game such big as WoW can afford to placate these people, but this should be done via talents as an option only or with specs which are from the get go setup as such, which Destruction is certainly not.

2 of them are mandatory to pvp with. Even if they buff cb in pvp, it will still be mandatory. I don't understand why you are against baseline ability's that doesn't affect your precious uber rotation of 5 buttons and let you believe you are leet 111111 warlock player. Maybe you must try classic when there was shit load of ability's that you needed to do pvp en only 2 for pve. "put dot and start sb spam" and then spam your macro "looooooook i'm so l33t 111"

[burek]

2 of them are mandatory to pvp with. Even if they buff cb in pvp, it will still be mandatory. I don't understand why you are against baseline ability's that doesn't affect your precious uber rotation of 5 buttons and let you believe you are leet 111111 warlock player. Maybe you must try classic when there was shit load of ability's that you needed to do pvp en only 2 for pve. "put dot and start sb spam" and then spam your macro "looooooook i'm so l33t 111"

It's not 5 buttons, it's 25. Arguing for 2 more on top of that is mind-boggling.

[Misuteri]

They are too proud to admit they butchered the Destro.

MoP Destro was already perfect, they just needed to adjust numbers. But no, they have to fix what isn't broken, alongside all other mechanics and design in this game that don't need fixing. And this is how BFA was born folks! The most hated expansion so far by everyone.

MoP destro was perfect, Cata affliction was perfect, TBC demonology was perfect. YMMV but this is where I enjoyed each spec the most.

[Lucrece]

It's not 5 buttons, it's 25. Arguing for 2 more on top of that is mind-boggling.

lol, 25. Of which you use more often than every 30 seconds?

[burek]

lol, 25. Of which you use more often than every 30 seconds?

8 as destro? Or something like that. But why does it matter? A 3 min CD is still a button just like any other. A situational ability is still a button. You need to have keybinds for all of them, and you need to have them all in your mind to react instantly when needed. Having 2 more abilities is pointless, wouldn't add anything but even more bloat.

[Baconeggcheese]

TBC demonology was perfect. YMMV but this is where I enjoyed each spec the most.

What was TBC demo again? I only remember shadowbolt spam in TBC which I imagine isn't what you're talking about.

[Lucrece]

8 as destro? Or something like that. But why does it matter? A 3 min CD is still a button just like any other. A situational ability is still a button. You need to have keybinds for all of them, and you need to have them all in your mind to react instantly when needed. Having 2 more abilities is pointless, wouldn't add anything but even more bloat.

You are wildly stretching the definition of bloat if you consider more than 8 active abilities under the usage of 30 secs in the regular rotation as bloat. You have a keyboard with modifiers on top (not assuming the amount of buttons saved by macros, many of which the idiots at Blizzard broke with their terrible idea of putting CD's on the GCD).

[Baconeggcheese]

You are wildly stretching the definition of bloat if you consider more than 8 active abilities under the usage of 30 secs in the regular rotation as bloat. You have a keyboard with modifiers on top (not assuming the amount of buttons saved by macros, many of which the idiots at Blizzard broke with their terrible idea of putting CD's on the GCD).

This is also not to take into account just how much time is spent using each of those abilities.

The number drops pretty fast, over half your time is spent casting incinerate. While I loved the crap out of mop destro it could have used a lil something to break up those incinerate casts. Modern destro is not terribly different in that regard, its just the options we have aren't very exciting.

[burek]

You are wildly stretching the definition of bloat if you consider more than 8 active abilities under the usage of 30 secs in the regular rotation as bloat. You have a keyboard with modifiers on top (not assuming the amount of buttons saved by macros, many of which the idiots at Blizzard broke with their terrible idea of putting CD's on the GCD).

What I consider as bloat currently is having a 3min CD, a 2 min CD and a 1.5min trinket CD. Or having both a healthstone and a health potion instead of just 1 of them with 2 charges. Or 4 pets with important utility to switch around. And having tons of little procs you can't react to in a meaningful way.

But I'm not sure what are you arguing for, have we ever had a rotation with 10 buttons every 30s? Maybe as demo with switching in and out of meta to gain new abilities.

[Deleted]

It's not 5 buttons, it's 25. Arguing for 2 more on top of that is mind-boggling.

most are asking (pvp view) to add Circle and Demon skin to be put baseline. So having 2 more buttons (circle) is bloating for you ??

What happens to the new gamers these day's having problem to memorise 8 buttons ?? Watch some arena pvpers (specialy healers) with there Target / dispel / cc marco's

Want believe it or not, having circle baseline so we have the option to go havoc mortal coil , and passive leech (sustain tankiness) would help alot in pvp

But no, leave BFA destro as it is, its perfect