Keystone.guru: a website for planning your M+ routes

[Asrialol]

Jesus. Most of you are now discussing me and getting really personal and not even talking about the thing. Guys, it's okay if you like this thing. Stop trying to dogpile on me because I don't, it's perfectly fine for people not to like something and express why they don't.

Saying someone is ripping off someone else's "hard" work in order to make "cheap buck" is constructive? I'm surprised you haven't thrown out some "bads" and "plebs" so far in this thread as that appears to be common for you. You're clearly a huge fan of this Nnogga person (even trying to argument that he's doing all his stuff for free - then you actually tell people to follow his stream... lmao. He's clearly not making money off of anything he does), but it seems your fanboyism is making you so toxic it's just.. I don't even have words.

Telling someone to delete their site, vision, etc.

Such a lovely person. Great quality poster. Please post more.

[tikcol]

Those are addons. This is an addon...and a website that does the same thing but is missing key features: A) is not a convenient tool you can open and use in-game without any set up required. B) You cannot use it to very easily share routes with other people in your group who also have the Addon with the literally press of a button. C) The addon, unlike the website, does not have full information and tooltips about what the mobs are, what spells they have, etc. And I sincerely doubt it's updated as constantly as MDT is to reflect even the subtle changes Blizzard makes to the trash pulls in these dungeons, which believe it or not have been often enough to require constant updates every week.

This isn't like DBM and Big Wigs, those addons are for a similar thing, but have a different approach to how they operate and are intended for different types of users. One of them is meant for everyone to use and is set up so that average player can just plug it in and they're done, and the is a more streamlined and superior interface, and is simultaneously significantly less CPU intensive while having far more customization options. It's like comparing a Swiss Army Knife to an actual hunting knife that could actually kill a bear.

This website is just basically the same exact thing as the addon...with fewer features. But it's a website! And you can join it! The only thing easier to do on this site is help the maker generate income.


Because they're not plebs. The point of MDT is not to convenience you in the way McDonald's conveniences you over making a burger at home or going to a nice restaurant. It is to give you a good tool to use so you can plan your dungeons out with your group before you put your keystone in.

Ppl up in here acting like "Oh man I can do this at work, wow so convenient! And I don't have to inconvenience my casual friends by having them download an addon, I can just inconvenience them by having them join a website they're never going to use." lol.

Have fun y'all.

WoW you're the most butt hurt person I've seen in a while. My bet is that you're jealous. Very aggressive from the opening post always trying to attack the OP's work.

You're literally writing walls of text fan-boying over the creator of another tool while telling this one to delete his as fast as possible. Unbelievable fanboy.

How petty is that.

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Hi all!

tl;dr + link at bottom. I'm proud to present to you all my website, Keystone.guru. Some of you may have seen the initial launch thread over at Reddit, but the time has come to spread it a little further. I've used the past three weeks to improve the website from stability issues to bugfixes and new features, so let's dive in!

What is it?
Keystone.guru is a website where you can plan your M+ routes, as the title states. You can view all dungeons in a custom Leaflet map (think Google Maps) which shows all enemies and packs for any BfA dungeon. You can then use the map tools to draw your route through the dungeon, tagging enemies along the way and eventually reaching a full 100% enemy forces at the end.

Isn't this what Method Dungeon Tools does?
Yes, and while I still haven't installed/played with it yet, I do believe my website has some additional benefits you will like. Such as, it's a website, you can access it from anywhere you like, be it at work, on the couch or on the toilet (it's mobile friendly!) Secondly, you can open the website on a second tab while you play the game. Or while you fiddle around in MDT, I won't judge . The website has some interesting features that an addon cannot offer, such as community based voting/rating, easily searching for routes + affixes that you struggle with and best of all, you don't need to install an addon to share your route with everyone. This means you can make your route, copy the link and paste it somewhere else to easily share it. Your team members can then easily view the route you've created with no setup on their side.

That said, I think MDT has its own place and I think i can easily co-exist along with my website. There's some benefits to it that I can't offer, so I say you give both a try and see what works best for you and your team. If your team consists of 5 talented tight-knit players, MDT may be better for you. If you're a bit more casual, Keystone.guru may be better. I get this question a lot so I hope this clarifies it a bit. Use whatever works best for you.

What features does it have?

• Zoom-able maps of all dungeons and floors
• All enemies, their packs and patrols are mapped and visible
• Includes Teeming enemies
• Community voting for Infested enemies (they change every week!)
• Rate & favorite routes others have made
• Easy sharing (short links!)
• Overview page for affix overview
• Search for routes others have made

Some other things

• Mobile compatible
• Open source
• Discord
• Reddit

Can I try it without registering?
Yes you can! Try it and if you feel like looking around, there's a demo and a whole list of routes created by users already.

I found an issue
Please let me know asap either here, Discord, Github, or the subreddit. If it's breaking enough I'll promptly fix it.

Thank you for reading, enjoy the website and have a nice day.

tl;dr: I spent a whole lot of time not doing any M+ so I could make a M+ route planning website. Check it out at https://keystone.guru/.

Thanks for your hard work.

[Shakou]

WoW you're the most butt hurt person I've seen in a while. My bet is that you're jealous.

My bet is that y'all probably haven't even used the site or MDT but somehow already have strong opinions about it. Or you're just flattering the OP and don't realize that respect is not a given it is something earned.

What I'm not is someone who acts like a unruly, prepubescent child and flames people because they don't like something they do.

But tell me more about how my posts with mainly 4 line easy to read paragraphs (which you obviously did not read) are walls of text (a term for post where people don't use paragraphs, but instead is literally a solid block of text).

Some people are actually here to discuss things and not people. How boring your life must be that you focus on putting me down instead of I dunno...actually using these different tools and talking about them and their differences, and pros/cons?

Oh nvm this is MMO champ, literally same thing in nearly every thread, my mistake.

[tikcol]

My bet is that y'all probably haven't even used the site or MDT but somehow already have strong opinions about it. Or you're just flattering the OP and don't realize that respect is not a given it is something earned.

What I'm not is someone who acts like a unruly, prepubescent child and flames people because they don't like something they do.

But tell me more about how my posts with mainly 4 line easy to read paragraphs (which you obviously did not read) are walls of text (a term for post where people don't use paragraphs, but instead is literally a solid block of text).

Some people are actually here to discuss things and not people. How boring your life must be that you focus on putting me down instead of I dunno...actually using these different tools and talking about them and their differences, and pros/cons?

Oh nvm this is MMO champ, literally same thing in nearly every thread, my mistake.

Your attitude stinks. You're not here to be objective, you're here to piss on someone's work because one of your idols supports a similar tool. You're the perfect example of how a fan boy's mind works.

I'm here to stop your dishonest crusade.

10 months work? Just delete it!

[Shakou]

Your attitude stinks. You're not here to be objective, you're here to piss on someone's work because one of your idols supports a similar tool. You're the perfect example of how a fan boy's mind works.

I'm here to stop your dishonest crusade.

10 months work? Just delete it!

The only difference between you and me, is that you prefer to discuss people over things and don't even know what you're talking about at all, you're a straight up poser engaging in sciolism and very obviously at that. You prefer to give superfluous praise over an honest opinion and apart from pretty clearly having absolutely no experience in programming or coding whatsoever enough to know how long it would take a single person to develop something like this, also don't even seem to know how long BFA has even been announced, let alone in Beta with dungeons available for testing.

10 months development? Homie BFA was only announced a little over 11 months ago, did not start alpha until a little over 8 months ago and M+ was not available for testing until roughly 4 months ago and dungeons were not at all in the state for testing they are currently in. Hell, not even all dungeons were available for testing before M+ testing began.

But nevertheless, I'm telling you that MDT is actually a better made tool with far more features and a cleaner more user-friendly interface and it certainly wasn't a 10 month process to build, it was developed mainly during the M+ testing period, and people in here are either just reading the OP and saying "thanks" etc without having used the site, or have used MDT but are somehow concluding the site is better for the simple fact that is a website and not an in game addon.

Who do you think you're fooling?

You can think whatever you want about me, I don't really care you're a stranger on the internet so you cannot offend me. But you're out of your fucking league here. Like you're a blind pigeon knocking over what you think are chess pieces on a board, but you're actually just kicking rocks and I'm here for genuine discussion about actual things that are actually real.

Like this site and how it can or cannot be very useful and what it's purpose for existing really is. Cuz I'm sketchy and have good reason to be.

[peterparker]

Shakou the hater, thats all I gotta say. (here have some salt )

[Sezerek]

I think Shakous biggest problem with the op is the fact that he dismisses the already well established option and didnt even bother to check it out and is now listing some stuff as "advantages" that are total non-issues he would be aware of if he would have looked at MDT.
In that regard I am totally on Shakous side...on the other hand it is a nice other option...but no gamechanger in the grand scheme.

[SirReal]

@Shakou is sooooo mad! Settle down guy, I promise you'll be ok if you just close your browser and stop replying.

Anyway, great work OP! The work you've done so far is fantastic and it sounds like you've done it without fan boys dangling from your nuts. That said, Shakou may still be hungry.

Keep up the effort and thank you!

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you're a straight up poser

Hurry, get this guy back to the 90's!

[ID811717]

I appreciate the feedback, but I think you need to take a step back for a second here. I started work on this website about 10 months ago when MDT was not a thing, that I'm aware of.

Sure bud. MDT was a thing on BFA beta lol, it wasn't in development for 10 months before it was released.

I knew about it early... simply because I was on Beta and heavily testing M+. This is a really poor excuse and just leads me further to think you're trying to capitalize on his work.

MDT was developed over a short time during beta and it's still barely heard of right now honestly

You prefer to give superfluous praise over an honest opinion and apart from pretty clearly having absolutely no experience in programming or coding whatsoever enough to know how long it would take a single person to develop something like this, also don't even seem to know how long BFA has even been announced, let alone in Beta with dungeons available for testing.

10 months development? Homie BFA was only announced a little over 11 months ago, did not start alpha until a little over 8 months ago and M+ was not available for testing until roughly 4 months ago and dungeons were not at all in the state for testing they are currently in. Hell, not even all dungeons were available for testing before M+ testing began.

But nevertheless, I'm telling you that MDT is actually a better made tool with far more features and a cleaner more user-friendly interface and it certainly wasn't a 10 month process to build, it was developed mainly during the M+ testing period, and people in here are either just reading the OP and saying "thanks" etc without having used the site, or have used MDT but are somehow concluding the site is better for the simple fact that is a website and not an in game addon.

Why do you keep repeating this non-sense? Check your facts.
If you learned about MDT only during BfA beta, you were late for the party.

Feb 23th: The initial commit pushed to Nnogga's MDT GitHub, released as version v1-alpha. This version already contains 360KB of lua code, with seemingly full information about all trash mobs and bosses (health, id, coordinates, percentage, ...) for all Legion dungeons. It has a thank-you file mentioning 20 people as those who helped Nnogga deplete keys to help with the addon. There could have been an automatic way to generate the dungeon files, but the core lua file of the addon was already 2191 lines of code. This was 8+ months ago and it clearly was a project well in progress by the time it got onto a public GitHub.
Feb 23th: MDT page was created on CurseForge.
March 23th: I started using MDT after someone in M+ pushing discord linked to this reddit post.
April 24th (or soon after): BfA Beta started.

[MisterBigglez]

[AgilityTank]

What I'm not is someone who acts like a unruly, prepubescent child and flames people because they don't like something they do.

This... is exactly what you did.

[Rascal Bob]

Nope it doesn't. Why? Because it's not Method Dungeon Tools. Download it, use it. Jesus fucking Christ, you don't even need to make routes you can share strings in -game like weakauras and you also don't have to go to some website to do it which certainly isn't a really convenient in-game tool that is simple enough for anyone to use.

I mean no offense dude but frankly this a piss poor attempt to ape someone else's hard work. I mean, I for one seriously already don't like you for the fact that you're even trying to compete here (as if there is room to compete) but you're doing it in a very shady way focused on marketing more than on building a solid reputation in the community and delivering something that is not only useful but actually improves the game experience in a demonstrable way. Your website is neither more user friendly, more convenient to use and the UI/UX is not very good at all. Who gives a shit what the community thinks the best routes are? I don't enough to help The point of MDT and why it is superior in every way to what you are trying to do, is it gives players who actually know what they are doing a great tool to plan their dungeons out before going in.

Support OP, but I'm going to keep supporting Method Nnogga, and I suggest you do the same. Not only is he one of the top M+ players in the entire game, but the amount of care and expertise he brings to the table shows through in the addons, weakauras and other things he contributes to the community completely free of charge. Follow him on twitch, watch his stream, he often does patch fixes live on twitch and is an abundant resource for this kind of addon development, and all of this is just a service that you don't have to pay for in any way or doesn't require you to register on some site made by someone who isn't a known, trustworthy entity.

Hard pass. As far as I and I am sure other early adopters of MDT are concerned, the only way your website would be a remotely worthwhile effort is if you were simply providing a platform for other developers who focus on things like this to improve the M+ experience for other players.

Best advice I can give you if you intend to move forward is delete the current site and your vision for it and instead make a site where we can easily copy/paste strings from other people's MDT routes. Cuz 100% nobody who is a top M+ player is going to use or promote your tool, but you could instead cooperate with others instead of aping on their work for a cheap buck.

How don't you get that saying things like "sure bud" or "I mean no offense dude but frankly this a piss poor attempt to ape someone else's hard work." come off as condescending toward the OP. Constructive criticism or even your opinion on the site is good to share, just not in the way you do it. Most sentence that starts with I don't mean to be rude or I mean no offense usually aims for just that. While you claim to criticize the work only you also criticize the OP's intention and character without having any form or sort of information then a gut feeling to back it up.

Who gives a shit what the community thinks the best routes are?

I do, not all routes that top streamers use are made with pugs in mind. Some require some level of communication that isn't generally seen in pugs that are just doing a lvl 2-xx key. I would love to see routes that are specifically made for certain affixes, class comps and aimed for a certain player level. Also I don't really spend a lot of time on twitch, the free time I have I rather spend gaming instead of scouring twitch streams to see if they have new routes. Having a singular source that has people that update routes and have routes for all class comps sounds awesome to me. We're not all top dogs that play at the highest level nor do we need to be, a tool should be accessible for all but also advanced enough for the pro's in my opinion.

How is it suddenly not fair competition when it's not addon vs addon but site vs addon? Just because it doesn't use the same format doesn't mean it's not fair competition like auctioneer vs auctionator. If it's aimed at the same goal but done in a slightly different or even a vastly different way it's still fair competition. In all honesty I'm surprised that MDT hasn't made some sort of their own site for these purposes.

If you don't want people to make posts about you or the way you've worded things then you should probably word your sentences a bit differently because making paragraphs isn't all that's needed for a good general read.

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Thanks for the laugh

[Shakou]

How don't you get that saying things like "sure bud" or "I mean no offense dude but frankly this a piss poor attempt to ape someone else's hard work." come off as condescending toward the OP.

Uh no I totally get that, but simply not being nice or even talking down to people is not the same thing as personally insulting someone. To personally insult someone means to use personal insults. I never called the OP names or belittled him personally. Y'all in here flaming me and trying to act like I did something wrong because you don't agree with me. And you probably won't agree with me here but it's not really condescending when you're right. Sometimes people actually just have a superior intellect. And I'm not going to apologize to you for having one.

I got news for you man, there is basically absolutely zero chance that the OP is not lying about the time he started developing this site and where he got the idea. How do I know this? Because I actually understand probability very deeply because I'm quite good and well educated when it comes to math.

Understand this: the odds of a single grain of sand forming are something like 1 in a 100 billion and yet because there are so many rocks that possess the same mineral composition and so many events that can and do occur that cause those rocks to be weathered down and broken up, there are trillions of grains of sand in the world. It's about the same mathematical odds for a star to go super nova and yet there are stars going supernova almost constantly. Why? Because there are even more stars in the universe than there are grains of sand on planet Earth.

You see the vastness of the universe causes even unlikely events to happen frequently, but for something to actually be a rare occurrence on a universal scale, it has to be actually incredibly unlikely to happen, like 1 in 100x whatever the distance from one side of the universe to the other is.

So like check it, because there are a lot of people who develop World of Warcraft AddOns and yet there is only 1 that does what Nnogga's addon does, Method Dungeon Tools, it is extremely unlikely that the OP started developing his website without being fully aware of MDT. It is even more unlikely that he was "just trying to improve the community" because he chose to make a website and not an addon. To reach people who aren't even the same target audience. Well that sounds cool but in practice like raider.io has monopolized us all, if enough people use this website so to will there be no real room for competition. It's exactly like Wal-Mart pushing local businesses out, only it's another indy developer apeing on an already niche product.

But regardless, true competition is only possible on an equal level playing field, like we don't have Olympic games where crippled people compete against world class athletes who are not disabled, for example. And we don't criticize car manufacturers because they're not aviators.

If he made an addon and it was superior or was different enough that both could co-exist while playing to different market, it would be no issue. But instead this has the potential to keep people from using MDT in the first place simply because more people use the World Wide Web than play World of Warcraft and certainly more than WOW players who are savvy when it comes to addons. So ya I do have a problem with that. Because MDT is a superior tool that can seriously help people better learn these dungeons, it's not just a way for some guy to share an instruction manual for you to read or a list of directions.

I do, not all routes that top streamers use are made with pugs in mind. Some require some level of communication that isn't generally seen in pugs that are just doing a lvl 2-xx key. I would love to see routes that are specifically made for certain affixes, class comps and aimed for a certain player level.

This is complete nonsense, the routes top streamers use are the way they are because they provide the path of least resistance to time the key. If timing the key isn't your goal you do not need a route, and you certainly don't need that level of preplanning to run low level keys.

But hey if you want to do that fine, but don't try to act like it's about "the greater good" or anything like that to use a different tool over a pre-existing one that is better made to achieve the same goals.

You know what would be useful, actually? I said it in my first post here but y'all so focused on harassing and flaming me because I really don't like what this guy is doing with this website and have pretty solid reasons for not liking it, but it'd be great if we had a website that simply listed out people's dungeon routes. What we do not need is that website replacing the better made tool we already have to make said routes.

If OP actually makes a better product out of this great, so far it's demonstrably not that.
Infracted

[AgilityTank]

I for one seriously already don't like you for the fact that you're even trying to compete here.

I never called the OP names or belittled him personally.

Been on this site for years and never seen someone as delusional and salty as you.

[Protean]

WAH WAH WAH WHINE

You are posting the most toxic drivel I have ever seen on this website.

[Styx]

You are posting the most toxic drivel I have ever seen on this website.

QFT /10chars

[Deleted]

Shakou stop talking, you are embarrassing yourself, nobody including nnogga would agree with you lol

also competition is good, makes u try harder
and it's good to know that if either of those guys stop developing, there'll be someone else to take over.

[Rhokz]

Cool Site. Thx.

[Great Destiny Man]

Well now that Shakou has been banned for the umpteenth time we can keep the thread on track :P

It's a decent site, I'm not a fan of having to register but at least there's the try it function to understand what it does. You mention shareable links, didn't have enough time to try it out proper but that what would be pretty useful if I'm organising runs while offline.

[neescher]

You know you're in for a treat when you look at page 1 and the guy who has been insulting everyone is already banned.
@Wotuu:

I really like the idea! I haven't checked every detail of the website, but unlike Shakou, I think this being a website is the main selling point. I really hate the fact that I can't open MDT on my second screen while I'm in a dungeon. I'm one of those filthy casuals who can't memorize every single pull in the entire dungeon and has to re-open MDT every once in a while to look at the route.

With your website, it's possible to just have it open on my second screen, so I can just glance at it between pulls. So even if it might not be perfect, or maybe even not as good as MDT yet (I'm not saying it is, as I said I haven't really tested it that much), it sure has a lot of potential.