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  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by RoKPaNda View Post
    Somewhere at Blizzard they're laughing right now at how people think they want points/emblems back. It was a garbage system, it was complained about at all levels of play. Shit, the relinquished vendors were better than justice/valor because at least with relinquished and titanforging there was a chance that an item would be useful.

    I played through every iteration of justice/valor and there was not a single time where it wasn't complete shit. By far the worst was when it was used for item level upgrades, ugh, what a chore that was.
    shhhhh
    noone wants to hear the truth tbh

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Cthulhu fhtagn View Post
    You would have exactly the same gear at the exact same time as other people playing the spec you do.
    you too. hush.


    I remember the good ol' days of sunwell. All the raiders had the same gear, and all the casuals grinding badges for the ioqd vendor gear had the exact same gear. Good times.
    Same with ICC patch, when every melee dps was like 10% over hitcap because they bought all the badge items and the hit trinket off the badge vendor, and did poop dps because half their stat points were effectively wasted.

    Good times.

  2. #62
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by papajohn4 View Post
    LFR is for solo players to see the content and Normal raid is for Family and friends type of guilds to see the content... Also the gear in raids will have different models/skin so it will also be desired for transmog.



    Indeed, like how Conquest points cap was a while ago this will releive the pressure to cap every week!



    Character development. There are 3 letters in the MMORPG tag, which is RPG. People who play the game want to develop their character, to progress and become stronger. I dont know where the idea of "only raiders need good gear" comes from but is wrong.. MMO are not lobby raiding games, they are RPGs in their core.



    Thanks! I just described WotLK and FFXIV gear system to be honest, but this worked good in both games :P



    Its not about who plays more time.. its what type of game you have to play.. majority of people dont like raiding. How about if the best gear available was crafting and you had to grind for months materials to be able to craft it? I would love this and I would grind to craft them because I love professions... but most raiders would cry rivers.. so its not about time investment, is about "play the game how I like to play (raids) or you get no gear"..
    you can progress without feeling entitled to get the end game high tier gear. And if you reach that point you have a choice, to further progress your character or wait.

  3. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by RoKPaNda View Post
    Somewhere at Blizzard they're laughing right now at how people think they want points/emblems back. It was a garbage system, it was complained about at all levels of play. Shit, the relinquished vendors were better than justice/valor because at least with relinquished and titanforging there was a chance that an item would be useful.

    I played through every iteration of justice/valor and there was not a single time where it wasn't complete shit. By far the worst was when it was used for item level upgrades, ugh, what a chore that was.
    Legit, I played through the majority of Wrath and Cata and never once did I hear someone complain on any of the servers I played on about how gear was obtained. Maybe that makes me an outlier, but I doubt it. All I know is that using a currency for a guaranteed piece of gear is better than using it for Kadala style randomness that might be useless.

  4. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by Coulrophobia1989 View Post
    Legit, I played through the majority of Wrath and Cata and never once did I hear someone complain on any of the servers I played on about how gear was obtained. Maybe that makes me an outlier, but I doubt it. All I know is that using a currency for a guaranteed piece of gear is better than using it for Kadala style randomness that might be useless.
    Did you play on some sort of backwater/rp server with no progression? Badge babies were scorned from the second badges gave welfare gear on Illidan

  5. #65
    Because Blizzard and seemingly parts of the playerbase seem to be under the impression that players going through content at the pace they set for themselves is a bad thing.

    If someone wants to chew through the endgame at a breakneck pace, that's fine. Blizzard should stop trying to keep them logging on every day, because chances are a player like that isn't going anywhere.

    If someone wants to pace themselves out, allow things like badges or weekly caps to make a return so it doesn't feel like we're beating our faces against loot pinatas and praying we break through somewhere. An endless gear grind is not the good idea that Blizzard thinks it is.

  6. #66
    There's a reason I always called her "Krapdala".

  7. #67
    People hated the emblems.
    They always told me I would miss my family... but I never miss from close range.

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coulrophobia1989 View Post
    Legit, I played through the majority of Wrath and Cata and never once did I hear someone complain on any of the servers I played on about how gear was obtained. Maybe that makes me an outlier, but I doubt it. All I know is that using a currency for a guaranteed piece of gear is better than using it for Kadala style randomness that might be useless.
    1. I don't know that I've ever seen anyone whine about RNG gear in-game either, but you see it all over the forums. Same with emblems. It was a constant. They were worthless if you were actually doing the content, the elitists thought they were welfare garbage, the casuals thought they were completely out of reach / offered no progression / were a total grind depending on implementation, and when they were points for ilevels everyone fucking hated it.

    2. You're looking at it wrong. It's a guaranteed piece of gear that has historically been complete and utter shit as opposed to the kadala system as you call it where something might actually be an upgrade. Ten times out of ten for my Mythic main and my heroic alts and even my garbage character on a garbage server that I use to play with my casual friends I'd take the RNG loot (relinquished/wq/etc with the chance of hitting the lottery and getting a decent TF) over the poorly itemized, limited slots, grindy horseshit that was emblems.

    Quote Originally Posted by Torch Wick View Post
    They were fine presunwell
    So they were fine for like a year and a half over a decade ago. Sounds like they weren't fine.
    AchaeaKoralin - Are you still out there? | Classic Priest

  9. #69
    I remember when emblems were removed they said they didn’t like the idea but instantly came up with justice points which is exactly the same rofl

  10. #70
    It was a shit system and makes people bored and quit a lot earlier.

  11. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by papajohn4 View Post
    I will quote my post in the official forums, what I would like to change in wow:

    -Introduce Justice and Valor Points.
    -With Justice points you buy Normal Raide gear ilvl
    -With valor you buy Heroic Raid gear ilvl
    -Justice points have no cap and can be farmed in dungeons and World quests and LFR and Normal Raid
    -Valor have weekly Cap, and can be farmed from First Heroic dungeon of the day, Emissaries, and mythic dungeons.
    -Gearing full heroic raid ilvl from Valor should take you around 3-4 months if you cap every week
    -Mythic raid gear is only obtainable by Mythic raid
    -With Professions you can craft up to 2 items of heroic Raid ilvl. To do so you will need materials bought with Justice points and are boe. Others may buy them and sell them on AH. This will give intensives to geared players to farm justice points.
    -Remove traits from Head/Chest/Shoulders and add a trait tree to the Neck and people will chose traits as the get more azerite power.
    -Revert classes back to MoP or WotLK.
    "-Mythic raid gear is only obtainable by Mythic raid" Bbbbut but but people like M+ ...

    I wonder if some people start to get that M+ is really killing the game now, since when it is easier way to get high ilvl gear people will do it instead or raiding ...

    I agree with your list, but I think it is too late for this game atm
    Quote Originally Posted by Shinra1 View Post
    black people have no power, privilege they cannot be racist since they were oppressed
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodakane View Post
    Men are NOT suffering societal hardships due to being male. That doesn't exist in most 1st world countries.

  12. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by Alexeht View Post
    "-Mythic raid gear is only obtainable by Mythic raid" Bbbbut but but people like M+ ...

    I wonder if some people start to get that M+ is really killing the game now, since when it is easier way to get high ilvl gear people will do it instead or raiding ...

    I agree with your list, but I think it is too late for this game atm
    hey thanks :P Well I dont raid mythic (I dont raid at all!) and I dont tdo mythic+ either. I just thought that it would be like the Normal raid we knew from old wow, when there was only 1 raid mode. In my scenario, this is Mythic raid, and thats why I thought they might have exclusive gear there... I am most interested in Valor/Justice myself, but as you said, I agree its too late..
    The trick of selling a FFA-PvP MMO is creating the illusion among gankers that they are respectable fighters while protecting them from respectable fights, as their less skilled half would be massacred and quit instead of “HTFU” as they claim.

  13. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by RoKPaNda View Post

    People HATED Justice/Valor when it was current.
    I'd love to see some proof to back that statement up. I know of no one that ever said these were bad systems. Your opinion of a system doesn't speak for the entire playerbase.

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by crono14 View Post
    I'd love to see some proof to back that statement up. I know of no one that ever said these were bad systems. Your opinion of a system doesn't speak for the entire playerbase.
    So the cool thing about the internet is that a lot of popular forums and such are archived, so it's really not difficult for you to find an archive of the official forums or these forums or anything else that was popular at the time and see all the complaints about Justice/Valor. So it's really easy to verify if you want to. Casuals hated it for various reasons throughout it's iterations, raiders hated it, the super hardcore players felt that it was worthless for them and only served to diminish their accomplishments because WoW elitism was at an all time high at that point, and when points were used to upgrade gear it was universally hated then as well. It felt mandatory for the hardcore and it felt like an unrewarding grind for the average player.

    The really cool thing about there being archives of forums and such is that nostalgia doesn't get to change history. It wasn't a popular system, and my personal opinion has nothing to do with it.
    AchaeaKoralin - Are you still out there? | Classic Priest

  15. #75
    I have a fix for the azerite armor system that is 100% better than their current plans, they don't take anyone's advice guys even if it is good or better than theirs. I posted my idea on the official forums too but they did not even look at it.
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  16. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by RoKPaNda View Post
    Somewhere at Blizzard they're laughing right now at how people think they want points/emblems back. It was a garbage system, it was complained about at all levels of play. Shit, the relinquished vendors were better than justice/valor because at least with relinquished and titanforging there was a chance that an item would be useful.

    I played through every iteration of justice/valor and there was not a single time where it wasn't complete shit. By far the worst was when it was used for item level upgrades, ugh, what a chore that was.
    Badges of Justice were introduced in 2007 as an alternate means of getting gear outside of raids. This was later converted to Justice Points and Valor Points(and then valor was removed and just Jutice Points were around). They were removed in 2014 in WoD.

    Expanding upon the points system would be the smarter thing they could do. It allowed at the very least to ensure that your time in the game is not wasted. You had a measurable goal you could obtain even for the most casual player. Was it a time gating mechanic because of the weekly cap...absolutely. When has almost anything in WoW or most MMO's not been time gated in some way.

    What the system did was encourage all players to still go farm lower content for points to buy things. This has been thrown out the window for Augment Runes which are more or less worthless to still most players.Similar to the blood vendor, you could buy mats to make potions etc for crafting. The badge vendor could not only offer gear, it could offer mounts/pets/tabard, and all sorts of shit that give players plenty of reason to continue playing.

    Instead of justice points and a deterministic style of progressions, it's been replaced by RNG slot machine crap at every turn. Gear is shoved down our throats now and you just pray for RNG at titanforges etc

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by RoKPaNda View Post
    So the cool thing about the internet is that a lot of popular forums and such are archived, so it's really not difficult for you to find an archive of the official forums or these forums or anything else that was popular at the time and see all the complaints about Justice/Valor. So it's really easy to verify if you want to. Casuals hated it for various reasons throughout it's iterations, raiders hated it, the super hardcore players felt that it was worthless for them and only served to diminish their accomplishments because WoW elitism was at an all time high at that point, and when points were used to upgrade gear it was universally hated then as well. It felt mandatory for the hardcore and it felt like an unrewarding grind for the average player.

    The really cool thing about there being archives of forums and such is that nostalgia doesn't get to change history. It wasn't a popular system, and my personal opinion has nothing to do with it.
    Another cool thing about the internet is being able to spout conjecture without any sort of proof other than because I said so, it's the truth.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by papajohn4 View Post
    I will quote my post in the official forums, what I would like to change in wow:

    -Introduce Justice and Valor Points.
    -With Justice points you buy Normal Raide gear ilvl
    -With valor you buy Heroic Raid gear ilvl
    -Justice points have no cap and can be farmed in dungeons and World quests and LFR and Normal Raid
    -Valor have weekly Cap, and can be farmed from First Heroic dungeon of the day, Emissaries, and mythic dungeons.
    -Gearing full heroic raid ilvl from Valor should take you around 3-4 months if you cap every week
    -Mythic raid gear is only obtainable by Mythic raid
    -With Professions you can craft up to 2 items of heroic Raid ilvl. To do so you will need materials bought with Justice points and are boe. Others may buy them and sell them on AH. This will give intensives to geared players to farm justice points.
    -Remove traits from Head/Chest/Shoulders and add a trait tree to the Neck and people will chose traits as the get more azerite power.
    -Revert classes back to MoP or WotLK.
    Amen to that except I would like classes back at MoP level. Class design was overall in a pretty good spot in those days.

  17. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by crono14 View Post
    Badges of Justice were introduced in 2007 as an alternate means of getting gear outside of raids. This was later converted to Justice Points and Valor Points(and then valor was removed and just Jutice Points were around). They were removed in 2014 in WoD.

    Expanding upon the points system would be the smarter thing they could do. It allowed at the very least to ensure that your time in the game is not wasted. You had a measurable goal you could obtain even for the most casual player. Was it a time gating mechanic because of the weekly cap...absolutely. When has almost anything in WoW or most MMO's not been time gated in some way.

    What the system did was encourage all players to still go farm lower content for points to buy things. This has been thrown out the window for Augment Runes which are more or less worthless to still most players.Similar to the blood vendor, you could buy mats to make potions etc for crafting. The badge vendor could not only offer gear, it could offer mounts/pets/tabard, and all sorts of shit that give players plenty of reason to continue playing.

    Instead of justice points and a deterministic style of progressions, it's been replaced by RNG slot machine crap at every turn. Gear is shoved down our throats now and you just pray for RNG at titanforges etc
    In other words you're going to stick your fingers in your ears and claim that because you don't want to go do your research it didn't happen? I'm not doing the legwork to dispel your nostalgia. If you don't believe me you can always go and looking at the official forums from the time or these forums. There's a reason why they removed the system entirely a couple expansions ago. After years of making changes to it every single expansion they never could get a system that anyone was happy with. Players of all skill levels complained about Justice/Valor, and the final implementation with using valor to upgrade ilevel was universally hated.

    It didn't encourage anyone to go do "lower content" - What are you even talking about? When the shit was CURRENT it was WORTHLESS if you were raiding. Nobody was going to go back and do old raids for shit itemized gear that was garbage when it was current. Where do you even get that idea? Literally nobody in the history of WoW has ever said "Well, shit I'm going back and doing the previous tier for gear that wasn't even an upgrade for me then let alone now." It wasn't even an incentive to raid current content let alone old content. That's probably the most preposterous notion that I've ever seen in any debate on this forum in all the years that I've been here. The only time anyone did content that was beneath them was for points to upgrade gear because that was the only time that it was worthwhile and then it was a mandatory grind or you were literally crippling yourself.

    You have a measurable goal that you can reach now. The gear RNG doesn't change that. You know damn well what a reasonable goal is based on any level of content, and if you get a nice piece that puts you a little beyond that, cool. That's all just a bonus. You know what your progression path is, we all do, and now there are nice little bonuses along the way sometimes. Some people are compulsive and they feel bad when a piece of gear doesn't titanforge (spoilers: most pieces don't.) or they feel compelled to run lesser content chasing that incredibly rare TF from there that's about as likely as hitting the lottery. That's their problem. Blizzard isn't going to and shouldn't punish the rest of the playerbase because a small group of players think that way.

    If you'd actually look at something like titanforging rationally and realize that it's not something that happens constantly, and that running lower content specifically for TF is a waste of your time, and just treat it like the nice bonus that it is when it happens, you'd be happier. Titanforging is far more of an incentive to run lower content than anything else ever has been. I know that it's not likely that I'll ever get an upgrade from normal (and more likely but still unlikely that I'll get one from Heroic) but when my casual friends want me to play with them I can motivate myself to faceroll the content with them by telling myself that there is a chance, no matter how small, that I'll get an upgrade from that run and it's not a complete waste of my time.

    Points for upgrades? That on the other hand just felt like a grind. That was a case of I *HAVE TO* cap the points each week or else I'll be making myself weaker, and how do I cap those points? By doing useless shit that I wouldn't otherwise do and don't enjoy.

    I'd take titanforging as it exists today ten times out of ten over something like badges which never in their years in the game were useful in any way to me. Ten times out of ten I'd take a relinquished vendor over a badge/point vendor because at least there is a CHANCE that something from there will be useful.

    Now if you wanted to add a badge vendor IN ADDITION to the loot system as it works today, I'd be fine with that. But taking away the current system to replace it with something inferior like badges because yay nostalgia? No thanks.
    AchaeaKoralin - Are you still out there? | Classic Priest

  18. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by RoKPaNda View Post
    In other words you're going to stick your fingers in your ears and claim that because you don't want to go do your research it didn't happen? I'm not doing the legwork to dispel your nostalgia. If you don't believe me you can always go and looking at the official forums from the time or these forums. There's a reason why they removed the system entirely a couple expansions ago. After years of making changes to it every single expansion they never could get a system that anyone was happy with. Players of all skill levels complained about Justice/Valor, and the final implementation with using valor to upgrade ilevel was universally hated.

    It didn't encourage anyone to go do "lower content" - What are you even talking about? When the shit was CURRENT it was WORTHLESS if you were raiding. Nobody was going to go back and do old raids for shit itemized gear that was garbage when it was current. Where do you even get that idea? Literally nobody in the history of WoW has ever said "Well, shit I'm going back and doing the previous tier for gear that wasn't even an upgrade for me then let alone now." It wasn't even an incentive to raid current content let alone old content. That's probably the most preposterous notion that I've ever seen in any debate on this forum in all the years that I've been here. The only time anyone did content that was beneath them was for points to upgrade gear because that was the only time that it was worthwhile and then it was a mandatory grind or you were literally crippling yourself.

    You have a measurable goal that you can reach now. The gear RNG doesn't change that. You know damn well what a reasonable goal is based on any level of content, and if you get a nice piece that puts you a little beyond that, cool. That's all just a bonus. You know what your progression path is, we all do, and now there are nice little bonuses along the way sometimes. Some people are compulsive and they feel bad when a piece of gear doesn't titanforge (spoilers: most pieces don't.) or they feel compelled to run lesser content chasing that incredibly rare TF from there that's about as likely as hitting the lottery. That's their problem. Blizzard isn't going to and shouldn't punish the rest of the playerbase because a small group of players think that way.

    If you'd actually look at something like titanforging rationally and realize that it's not something that happens constantly, and that running lower content specifically for TF is a waste of your time, and just treat it like the nice bonus that it is when it happens, you'd be happier. Titanforging is far more of an incentive to run lower content than anything else ever has been. I know that it's not likely that I'll ever get an upgrade from normal (and more likely but still unlikely that I'll get one from Heroic) but when my casual friends want me to play with them I can motivate myself to faceroll the content with them by telling myself that there is a chance, no matter how small, that I'll get an upgrade from that run and it's not a complete waste of my time.

    Points for upgrades? That on the other hand just felt like a grind. That was a case of I *HAVE TO* cap the points each week or else I'll be making myself weaker, and how do I cap those points? By doing useless shit that I wouldn't otherwise do and don't enjoy.

    I'd take titanforging as it exists today ten times out of ten over something like badges which never in their years in the game were useful in any way to me. Ten times out of ten I'd take a relinquished vendor over a badge/point vendor because at least there is a CHANCE that something from there will be useful.

    Now if you wanted to add a badge vendor IN ADDITION to the loot system as it works today, I'd be fine with that. But taking away the current system to replace it with something inferior like badges because yay nostalgia? No thanks.
    The badge vendor wasn't released for those who were raiding...so clearly you missed that underlying point. There have always been reasons to collect badges/points. In TBC, the most reliable way to get epic gems for yourself was Badge of Justice from the vendor. Things such as Nether Vortex which were used heavily to craft BoE's for alts and things like Stormherald or to make money was a reason to collect points/badges as well. Everyone I knew farmed points to buy all those things.

    Later expansions we have crafting mats/ heirloom gear and a myriad of other things available from this system. All of this was also outside of gearing in raids and was by no means a requirement but easily obtainable with a goal in mind.

    So yeah, nice try on all your points. Unless you can provide some cold hard numbers on X% of playerbase just didn't like this system, your points are just conjecture and nothing more. I never said to remove the loot system as it is today, but they could certainly make it better and remove of a lot of the RNG aspect of it.
    Last edited by crono14; 2018-10-31 at 08:34 PM.

  19. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by crono14 View Post
    Amen to that except I would like classes back at MoP level. Class design was overall in a pretty good spot in those days.
    Yeap :P I liked both WotLK and MoP classes! Cant pick one as best, I like them both. Any of them would please me :P From forum posts in general I see that majority of people liked classes in that era too and I dont know why Blizz insist to give us something we dont like instead of something we all loved..
    The trick of selling a FFA-PvP MMO is creating the illusion among gankers that they are respectable fighters while protecting them from respectable fights, as their less skilled half would be massacred and quit instead of “HTFU” as they claim.

  20. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by crono14 View Post
    The badge vendor wasn't released for those who were raiding...so clearly you missed that underlying point. There have always been reasons to collect badges/points. In TBC, the most reliable way to get epic gems for yourself was Badge of Justice from the vendor. Things such as Nether Vortex which were used heavily to craft BoE's for alts and things like Stormherald or to make money was a reason to collect points/badges as well. Everyone I knew farmed points to buy all those things.

    Later expansions we have crafting mats/ heirloom gear and a myriad of other things available from this system. All of this was also outside of gearing in raids and was by no means a requirement but easily obtainable with a goal in mind.

    So yeah, nice try on all your points. Unless you can provide some cold hard numbers on X% of playerbase just didn't like this system, your points are just conjecture and nothing more. I never said to remove the loot system as it is today, but they could certainly make it better and remove of a lot of the RNG aspect of it.
    lol. I can't give you that any more than you could give me percentages to back up your claims. What I can do and have done is point you to where you could see people of all levels complaining about Justice/Valor during each version of the system. That's far more than you've done. You're also misremembering when/how things like the gems and nether vortexes and whatnot became more readily available, and again they were already outdated at that point.

    Again at no point did we lose any kind of goal or reasonable expectation of where we should be when it comes to gearing through our chosen endgame whether it's Mythic/Heroic/Normal/LFR raiding, Mythic+, PvP, or whatever. There is a reasonable point you can expect to reach and anything beyond that is simply a bonus.

    Again, as someone who played through every single version of Justice/Valor from the original badges of justice to the dumbass points at the end of MoP, I would happily take the current RNG fiesta and the kadala-esque relinquished vendor over any of the ways they implemented badges/emblems/points/etc. Why? Because at this the current way has the potential to be useful to me and fun to the casuals. The old way was neither. You can romanticize it however you want, at the end of the day it was at least as frustrating as you claim the RNG fiesta to be, regardless of what level you played on. It ranged from grindy bullshit that gave low quality loot to completely useless if you raided at all. Period. That you could do other shit with it and tradeskills and heirlooms isn't even part of the discussion.

    They're not going to remove the RNG aspect of the loot system. They're not going to go back to static gear on a vendor that's worthless for most players and decent for alts for about 5 seconds. They tried that for several years, it failed, they moved on.

    Edit: I'm pretty much done with this conversation at this point. I told you where to find the information you wanted, I'm not going to do your homework for you as well. You can keep hoping really hard that they're going to bring back justice/valor but they constantly tweaked and then ditched those systems for a reason.
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