[TV] Doctor Who

[Deficineiron]

I think I realized it this episode, but Doctor Who is now, cinematography-wise, shot like Black Mirror. They're using many of the same shots, the same sort of camera pans, etc. It makes Doctor Who seem more eerie, and sci-fi adventure, than the jolly romp it's known for being.


I'm not freaked out by spiders, I actually appreciate them, so this episode didn't do anything for me on the creep-scale. I can see how it would for some people though. If you've lived in Africa, you've lived with some truly large spiders, and some truly terrifying spiders.


I thought the American guy was supposed to be an analogue for Trump until they literally talked about him as a Trump competitor, both politically and in the hotel business. That dude is in so many other American shows but I can't place him, but it kept distracting me trying to think of the shows. I'm pretty sure he was on one of the Law & Orders.

One thing I fear with 3 companions and plotting out A, B, and C plots is that there's no time for the typical languid pace of Who, where there's soliloquys and somberness. Everything is rush rush rush to the next scene. It continues to be my main criticism of this young season.

They actually brought up a current political figure in the show? How was it likely intended to reflect on the politician they were referring to?

[eschatological]

They actually brought up a current political figure in the show? How was it likely intended to reflect on the politician they were referring to?

The character was an American hotelier with a gaudy hotel who was an obnoxious piece of shit, and early on a peon mentioned him running for President in 2020. I thought it was an analogue for Trump just shifted 4 years back, until about 2/3rds of the episode someone literally said, "I heard you're running against Trump in 2020 just because you hate him so much." That was the only time Trump was mentioned.

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Edit: I think the intention was to show how shitty politicians were, even if they were politically opposed to other, equally shitty politicians on the other side.

[Elim Garak]

The character was an American hotelier with a gaudy hotel who was an obnoxious piece of shit, and early on a peon mentioned him running for President in 2020. I thought it was an analogue for Trump just shifted 4 years back, until about 2/3rds of the episode someone literally said, "I heard you're running against Trump in 2020 just because you hate him so much." That was the only time Trump was mentioned.

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Edit: I think the intention was to show how shitty politicians were, even if they were politically opposed to other, equally shitty politicians on the other side.

My take away from the episode thus is: all american politicians are equallly shitty.

[Moralgy]

Maybe they realised it's cheaper/ more efficient to use humans not in makeup a lot and explain it like "oh yeah, humans are a really big and powerful race in the future" etc. It's pretty much the course with every space show, the majority of the cast are human.

Yea it is probably just a budget thing. Doctor Who hasn't really had the biggest budget historically, so making cost efficient choices for the story is likely going to happen.

3 companions is too many, especially when 2 out of 3 are extremely bland (always enjoy the graham scenes) However, the most irritating thing about the season for me is the doctor, not become she's a woman, but because how preachy she's become - the doctor has always been against violence and killing as a first response to adversity, but she's definitely engaged in it before. I get why she is against harming humans etc, that's nothing new, but why does she suddenly care about robots or spiders? The whole "no violence" part of the doctor used to be tempered with logic and circumstance, now it's just like a constant rule that does more harm than good

The 3 companion thing is def panning out to be like I feared. It takes away from the essence of the show in some situations when they are all spread out. I think it is neat that they are trying it, but I hope when the companion reset happens, when ever it does, we get a singular companion again.

As for the compassion, the Doctor has like always been overly compassionate, in the new series, for creatures that aren't sentient or are in early sentience. She was still dooming them all to death by trapping them in the room, so she wasn't completely over the top "we must save them!", she just didn't want creatures that had no choice in what happened to them needlessly suffer. Tbh, I agreed with the douchebag guy that the gun was far more merciful, but he wasn't doing it for mercy so ya know, fuck that dude lol.

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They actually brought up a current political figure in the show? How was it likely intended to reflect on the politician they were referring to?

The big bad guy was a man wanting to run against trump in 2020 because of an apparent hatred for Trump. Trump was mentioned once in the entire episode.

[Ryme]

The most mixed episode for me, maybe ever. I have arachnophobia so the spiders really did it for me, but my god the writing is so hilariously bad I couldn't ever get into it fully; the hotelier was more over the top than a 10 year old's cartoon, I just laughed every time he said anything. The political commentary is so ham fisted and, frankly, I don't think it's really warranted in Dr Who.

[Deficineiron]

The most mixed episode for me, maybe ever. I have arachnophobia so the spiders really did it for me, but my god the writing is so hilariously bad I couldn't ever get into it fully; the hotelier was more over the top than a 10 year old's cartoon, I just laughed every time he said anything. The political commentary is so ham fisted and, frankly, I don't think it's really warranted in Dr Who.

opinions have differed on this thread (I haven't seen the episode) - were they, in your opinion, making a political point about a current politician?

Personally I don't see how the bbc could help itself, they insert social messaging so broadly it would be odd if they didn't take a shot at an unfavored politician. (US networks do this too, of course, and at least at one point were getting paid tax dollars for certain types of messaging inserted into their scripts in the past)).

[Ryme]

opinions have differed on this thread (I haven't seen the episode) - were they, in your opinion, making a political point about a current politician?

Personally I don't see how the bbc could help itself, they insert social messaging so broadly it would be odd if they didn't take a shot at an unfavored politician. (US networks do this too, of course, and at least at one point were getting paid tax dollars for certain types of messaging inserted into their scripts in the past)).

There was the small one off potshot at Trump, par for the course in a lot of media. I still think this feels a bit odd in a show like Dr Who, but meh.

It's more the over the top characterisations of the human villains, they're utterly flat characters with no motivation behind them outside of fitting a bill of "greedy capitalist", "mean racist". On the flip side, the good guys are also starting to suffer, there's no depth to their motives outside of desperately trying to invert the bad guys and since the bad guys have no depth, this motive likewise has no depth.

I dunno, I might be trying to expect too much from a show that's essentially just light day entertainment, but I just get a constant "fellow kids" feeling these days coupled with the feeling of it being more important to show how against these concepts the writers are than actually writing good content.

[Deficineiron]

There was the small one off potshot at Trump, par for the course in a lot of media. I still think this feels a bit odd in a show like Dr Who, but meh.

It's more the over the top characterisations of the human villains, they're utterly flat characters with no motivation behind them outside of fitting a bill of "greedy capitalist", "mean racist". On the flip side, the good guys are also starting to suffer, they're no depth to their motives outside of desperately trying to invert the bad guys and since the bad guys have no depth, this motive likewise has no depth.

I dunno, I might be trying to expect too much from a show that's essentially just light day entertainment, but I just get a constant "fellow kids" feeling these days coupled with the feeling of it being more important to show how against these concepts the writers are than actually writing good content.

this is tangential to what you are posting but it came to mind - there is a pertwee episode with chinese communists in it. in one scene pertwee gains some respect from a chinese official by speaking his chinese dialect and having known mao personally (!) - this was when Mao was still alive and CP head! the doctor's comments are appropriately respectful.

I found this very interesting. Was there a contemporary reason in the early 70's the UK wanted to put favorable coverage of China in their programming? My premise is you don't just put flattering comments about a living head of state/dictator in a government-made TV show randomly.

[apepi]

I feel like this could have been a good episode, besides the horrible writing for the politician character. He didn't start bad, but then with the Doctor's diatribe against him was horrible. She wanted the spider to just die from not having oxygen? She kills the other ones from letting them die of hunger? What? Stopping something from suffering from pain is a valid moral question. But they stop at "guns are horrible". Why are guns horrible? Guns are just a way to kill things, and she decided to kill the other spiders by locking them in a room, what is the difference, they both end up dying. You can't go ahead and spout peace when you kill something. They could have covered this issue and have a serious debate, but they just did it horribly.

[Deficineiron]

I feel like this could have been a good episode, besides the horrible writing for the politician character. He didn't start bad, but then with the Doctor's diatribe against him was horrible. She wanted the spider to just die from not having oxygen? She kills the other ones from letting them die of hunger? What? Stopping something from suffering from pain is a valid moral question. But they stop at "guns are horrible". Why are guns horrible? Guns are just a way to kill things, and she decided to kill the other spiders by locking them in a room, what is the difference, they both end up dying. You can't go ahead and spout peace when you kill something. They could have covered this issue and have a serious debate, but they just did it horribly.

I am pretty sure 'guns are horrible' is a bbc public service message and is almost mandatory. In general programming, how often do you see a weapon responsibly used in good-guy private hands on bbc work?

[Deleted]

I feel like this could have been a good episode, besides the horrible writing for the politician character. He didn't start bad, but then with the Doctor's diatribe against him was horrible. She wanted the spider to just die from not having oxygen? She kills the other ones from letting them die of hunger? What? Stopping something from suffering from pain is a valid moral question. But they stop at "guns are horrible". Why are guns horrible? Guns are just a way to kill things, and she decided to kill the other spiders by locking them in a room, what is the difference, they both end up dying. You can't go ahead and spout peace when you kill something. They could have covered this issue and have a serious debate, but they just did it horribly.

Well we dont know what she is going to do for those spiders in the vault are we? she could mabey hav transported them to their own world or something else, We don't know. And the doctor is agaist murder. Mercyfull or not the doctor really doesnt want beings to choice to kill.

we know the doctor does let things happen, but it has to be their choice to fail, or change their mind and find a more peacefull salution.

[Gallahadd]

Well we dont know what she is going to do for those spiders in the vault are we?

Pretty sure there was a line along the lines of “lock them in there, and allow them to die naturally” which makes it seem a LOT like she was going to leave them to starve/suffocate.

Honestly, I liked this episode when I first watched it, but the more I think back the less it makes sense. The Doctor has always been hyper pacifist... but in what world is leaving a living creature to slowly suffocate to death, in agony and afraid, a better death than a quick shot to the back of the head?

Either way, the creature ends up dead... but her way it goes through agony and dies afraid, rather than going out in a second. Same thing with the spiders in the vault... how is it in any way humane, locking them in there to die slowly in a box?

Also, how is it SAFE to leave them there? Since all this started when a spider presumed dead wasn’t, what’s to stop this all happening again, if the spiders in the vault are found, before they all die?

[eschatological]

I think the point is the Doctor doesn't like guns. I bet if the hotelier said "Let's set off an explosive in the kitchen once they're locked in," she would have been fine with that.

[Moralgy]

Pretty sure there was a line along the lines of “lock them in there, and allow them to die naturally” which makes it seem a LOT like she was going to leave them to starve/suffocate.

Honestly, I liked this episode when I first watched it, but the more I think back the less it makes sense. The Doctor has always been hyper pacifist... but in what world is leaving a living creature to slowly suffocate to death, in agony and afraid, a better death than a quick shot to the back of the head?

Either way, the creature ends up dead... but her way it goes through agony and dies afraid, rather than going out in a second. Same thing with the spiders in the vault... how is it in any way humane, locking them in there to die slowly in a box?

Also, how is it SAFE to leave them there? Since all this started when a spider presumed dead wasn’t, what’s to stop this all happening again, if the spiders in the vault are found, before they all die?

Yea tbqh, previous doctors would have tried their best to relocate them to a safe place I feel, not let them die a slow death. This was def a weaker episode with some mild problems imo.

[apepi]

I am pretty sure 'guns are horrible' is a bbc public service message and is almost mandatory. In general programming, how often do you see a weapon responsibly used in good-guy private hands on bbc work?

I really don't watch much besides this, and maybe Sherlock.

Well we dont know what she is going to do for those spiders in the vault are we? she could mabey hav transported them to their own world or something else, We don't know. And the doctor is agaist murder. Mercyfull or not the doctor really doesnt want beings to choice to kill.

we know the doctor does let things happen, but it has to be their choice to fail, or change their mind and find a more peacefull salution.

I feel like it is insinuated that she is going to just leave them there.

Also what of the other spiders? One in both of the flats? Did they just forget about them? This episode was just ended very poorly.

[Gallahadd]

Yea tbqh, previous doctors would have tried their best to relocate them to a safe place I feel, not let them die a slow death. This was def a weaker episode with some mild problems imo.

Yeah... really feels like this episode lost steam half way through. It started out very well, but when they saved the day with Grime and asphyxiation it all went a bit wrong.

[Frozenbeef]

An incredibly dull episode...

the cute little alien was the only redeeming quality.

Up there with my worst episodes - In the forest of the night, fear her and rings of akhataen

[Gallahadd]

Decent episode. I’m digging the Doctor’s engineering neediness, and her borderline obsessive adoration of the warp drive was a nice speech. Eternally glad to Doctor Who, for introducing me to my spirit animal! All hail the P’ting(?) a small, odd looking creature who is extremely durable and does nothing but eat. Love it!

However... one large flaw is starting to rear it’s head. With a larger group, the writers seem to feel a need to give everyone something to DO. So the Doctor was doing her thing, cool... Yaz was helping the fairly offputting “robot” to deal with the P’ting, fine... then there was Ryan and Graham, who had this vaguely pointless subplot, about helping a guy give birth. It didn’t really add anything to the plot, and in fact took AWAY time from the overall plot of dealing with the P’ting and the more interesting subplot of Doc Brown and his slightly annoying sister.

I think, going forward, the writers need to understand, that it’s fine to have “downtime” for your characters. You don’t need to have a plot arc for every character, every episode. This episode would not have been hurt in any way, and in fact would probably have been helped considerably, by the removal of the birth subplot.

But yeah, overall I enjoyed the episode and so far am very satisfied with this season. Next week looks like another historical episode, and this time seems to be dealing with how horrible we were to India. Fun!

[Kokolums]

However... one large flaw is starting to rear it’s head. With a larger group, the writers seem to feel a need to give everyone something to DO.

I think, going forward, the writers need to understand, that it’s fine to have “downtime” for your characters. You don’t need to have a plot arc for every character, every episode. This episode would not have been hurt in any way, and in fact would probably have been helped considerably, by the removal of the birth subplot.
!

Most ensemble shows do that. They have an episode that centers around 1 character in fact, with the rest falling into the background. Its a bit trickier with Doctor Who since they are all sort of traveling in a capsule.

[Gallahadd]

Most ensemble shows do that. They have an episode that centers around 1 character in fact, with the rest falling into the background. Its a bit trickier with Doctor Who since they are all sort of traveling in a capsule.

Yeah, and that sort of dynamic, where you have character focussed episodes, works very well IMO. The other characters don’t just vanish, but they take support roles for the episode.

It seems like next week might be like that. With the episode being about Yaz’ grandmother I’m hoping that the focus will be on her, with Ryan and Graham taking back-up roles.