Preach Gaming - Punish Them! - Lack of Failure Doesn't Prepare For Mythic+

[Felfaadaern Darkterror]

Only way to fix this problem would be to eliminate welfare epics entirely. Tie every upgrade to climbing the difficulty tier, and keep it all proportionate. The upgrades would always be there, if you learned to beat that next level of the game. And if you didn't, you would understand what you needed to work on to get that next upgrade. When challenge and reward are always at 1-1 ratio, players are more motivated to learn.

[Deleted]

Yes. I have been in LFR and people just power through. Sometimes it is simply due to the better skilled and geared players decision to do so because it saves time on beating the boss.

To be fair. If you put only players with 320-340 ilvl and without nhc/hc/m boss EXP into LFR, i dont think they would get out of it without massiv wiping.

[Phlegethon]

Man, i wish your spastics ever had a clue what you were posting.

Read what i typed.

The reason Karazhan had so many raiders wasnt because the raid was fun, or 10man, or easy, it was because people used catch up gear from badges 2 years after to clear it, they didnt go into Karazhan when it was relevant or when it was "fun".

The 99% was still leveling when i cleared Karazhan on Feb 2007, and it would have been earlier if it wasnt for the fact we got stuck on Shade of Aran for a few hours every week at the start cause back then it took them awhile to hotfix something like the fucking hunter pets, or Divine Shield.

So you just repeat your stupid? Now what?

[Celista]

Stop listening to that guy, he's been mostly casual for over a decade now and he's clearly got symptoms of burnout.

Let's just admit something here. Vanilla-style tier progression would not make these players better. Terrible players will always be terrible players. If you remove LFR, crank up the difficulty, and tell them "git gud" they'll just hit a wall after Heroic Dungeons and quit.

Yup, we learned this lesson in early Cata. How quickly people forget....

[Pieterman]

Because game instructions don't include statements like "a 30-hour weekly commitment is expected of all players".

Because a game whose instructions said that would have virtually no players.

It shouldnt require anything in terms of timecommitment, but it also shouldnt only have 2 hours of content per week to appease the "I have a job" crowd.

[Felfaadaern Darkterror]

Imo they should revamp the leveling experience and make it feel like an extended tutorial. What I'd want to see:
Completely revamp tooltips. When I read a detailed tooltip I should know exactly how an ability works
Make leveling harder but quite shorter (and each expansion should reduce that further so time till you enter the current expansion content stays relatively static). Include warning to players when they are introduced to situations when they need to use a different ability like CC or interrupts, explain concepts like Line of Sight.
Allow players to reach full player power much earlier while leveling and then expand their options instead of power; i.e. let us progress through the talent system the same way we earned honor talents in legion.
Quest storylines often end in dungeons. At the end of the storyline the last quest should give you a prompt to queue for the dungeon.
In general things should be hard enough that you cannot just go through them without playing properly.

I recently leveled a Dark Iron shaman and this is pretty much what I did. I always level from scratch when playing a new class, and this is my first caster. I love the new leveling setup, where you can stay in zones for the full story, including the concluding dungeon. I like that I could kill any quest mob, but pulling several required me to learn all my toolkit - pulling up earth elemental to tank, aoe stun with totem, slowing with totem or Frost Shock, dotting with Flame Shock while kiting, defensives, racial and class CDs...

Now he's 120 geared 351 and I am still learning stuff. Mostly where to stand for different pulls so I can see well enough to place spells without butt-pulling or having to move constantly. Plan is to run a lot more dungeons - regular mythics and low +++s just for practice.

[khalltusk]

Yet that very method worked in Vanilla - WotLK, you know, when this game had it's most customers.

Sure, that's oversimplifying things, but it's just as much of an oversimplification to say, "They'll quit when they hit the Heroic Dungeon wall."

A clear progression path of gear with the ability to fail worked before. Could it work today? Maybe, it just depends on how coddled the player base that remains is and if change would bring back those that have left.

Blizzard actually did admit that players did quit when they hit a wall. This was back in Cata when they made heroic dungeons harder.

As for Progression Method, it kinda worked but not really in Vanilla. As the top guilds would poach any well geared and good players from lesser progressed guilds. It still happens today but not anywhere near as bad as back then. I experienced this my self in Vanilla and TBC when the raid structure pre catch up was still like this.

Wrath brought in better catch up mechanisms which really helped the pug scene (that and making 10 and 25man raid sizes really helped the pug scene).

[Deleted]

Yet that very method worked in Vanilla - WotLK, you know, when this game had it's most customers.

Sure, that's oversimplifying things, but it's just as much of an oversimplification to say, "They'll quit when they hit the Heroic Dungeon wall."

A clear progression path of gear with the ability to fail worked before. Could it work today? Maybe, it just depends on how coddled the player base that remains is and if change would bring back those that have left.

A clear path of progression is what the game needs - and as most players are into levelling, that needs to be a grindy levelling system, not raids, dungeons or other gearing.

Legion was a wow saviour because the artifact system essentially made levelling last the entire expac.

Azerite armor is a confusing shitty mess because while its technically levelling, the system is that convoluted no one can tell the progression path they are on.

Wows playerbase likes easy, grindy levelling. They don't like raids. They don't like hard content.

Vanilla - WoTLK worked because of easy grindy play with clear milestones. Legion worked because of easy, grindy play with clear milestones. Cataclysm failed because of difficult, gear based play.

[Deianeira]

Problem is people nowdays are too emotional someone say somethin to them someone yell and they cry and left xD ..when i was learnin raid they always scream at me ..now i find out mechanics ez and fun to watch and those people teach me and those people became my friends when someone yell at you or tell you somethin you dont a clu about you just listen but just like i said people nowdays are emotional over a bo hoooo xD

Here the deal, it is not a problem for th vast majority to be critizised as long there is not "you fucking noob retard, why did you do that" That is not criticism that is plain and simple bullying. In our raidteam we have at times taken in more "hardcore" raiders with the notion that they know we are a casual guild who are not so interested in the "Race" And that we want to have fun and ALWAYS it ends with "Why dont people learn mechanics of bossfights after the first or second wipe" or "Why do we have dps that are not delivering 100% or near parses" And the answer we always say is because people play the spec/class they want and how they want to play to have fun and if they dont want play that way and let everyone in our guild be a part of it then we kindly asked them to look for another guild that more suits their playstyle. And actually most of the players accept this.

I understand that it is frustrating to wipe on stupid shit, but what we dont do is berate people for making mistakes more then once but instead we ask them what they feel is the problem and try to find ways for them to make it easier for them to improve. and guess what the vast majority of people that get that help do improve and become really good players. I think the "rushing" is part of why people feel that they dont try raiding on higher levels then LFR many times.

[kamuimac]

Stop listening to that guy, he's been mostly casual for over a decade now and he's clearly got symptoms of burnout.


Yup, we learned this lesson in early Cata. How quickly people forget....

they dont forget

they do it on purpose.

and this is the worst part of this discussions.

that you have nolifers deliberately wanting to destroy the game.

and streamers are even worse then them because they try to make as much $$$$ as possible feeding on this negative emotions.

[Naked Snake]

A clear path of progression is what the game needs

The game has that. You level up, you do dungeons, you do raids. You pick whatever difficulty suits you and then you progress through it. Or you do mythic+ and progress through those.

[Tekkommo]

You could have a whole proving ground that is required to do before entering M+, that makes you interrupt, DPS correct add, AOE, avoid stuff etc.

It still wouldn't make a difference, there is a vast majority of people that just want to faceroll and have no real challenge.

If you're relying on the game to make someone better, then that person has no desire to get better in the first place. There are loads of 3rd party sites to use, tonnes of videos on YT, if someone wants to improve, there is a wealth of knowledge at your finger tips.

We didn't have this back in vanilla, or even TBC, if you wanted to get better you more or less had to figure it out for yourself, or of course communicate with others in game.

I've not watched the video, but I'm sure it's just another clickbait video, as I'm done with watching his pointless videos. He aint getting my click. Also, if you find a +6 or +7, even a +10 hard, you're a bad player. You can't make a bad player with slow reaction times better with guides. If you've never tried them, the best thing to do is, do them. Start from +2, who cares if you don't need gear from a +2, you need practice first of all. The best way to learn is to actually do it.

[Mazinger-Z]

I've not watched the video, but I'm sure it's just another clickbait video, as I'm done with watching his pointless videos. He aint getting my click. Also, if you find a +6 or +7, even a +10 hard, you're a bad player. You can't make a bad player with slow reaction times better with guides. If you've never tried them, the best thing to do is, do them. Start from +2, who cares if you don't need gear from a +2, you need practice first of all. The best way to learn is to actually do it.

Well, if you had watched the video, his point is that players get to a point thru soloing and doing trivial content and their ilvl (a metric Blizzard uses to tell you where you can go) tells them they should be able to do M+ 6/7 because that's where their next upgrades are.

The problem is that Blizzard doesn't set any real expectations on a player until they hit M+ or raiding content. So players don't learn to play at a gradual pace and instead hit a wall where they have to get good really quickly.

The video originates from his base asking him to looking M+ issues on the forums. He goes on to state that Blizzard will probably nerf M+ so affixes appear at later levels like they did in Legion to address the problem, so that M+ 6/7 are more manageable for these players. One of his criticisms is that players can achieve a fairly high ilvl without doing challenging content, which as stated, causes to not learn passively through overcoming increasing difficulty and instead get thrown into the deep end when they hit their ilvl ceiling thru soloable content and begin doing M+.

[Tekkommo]

Well, if you had watched the video, his point is that players get to a point thru soloing and doing trivial content and their ilvl (a metric Blizzard uses to tell you where you can go) tells them they should be able to do M+ 6/7 because that's where their next upgrades are.

The problem is that Blizzard doesn't set any real expectations on a player until they hit M+ or raiding content. So players don't learn to play at a gradual pace and instead hit a wall where they have to get good really quickly.

The video originates from his base asking him to looking M+ issues on the forums. He goes on to state that Blizzard will probably nerf M+ so affixes appear at later levels like they did in Legion to address the problem, so that M+ 6/7 are more manageable for these players. One of his criticisms is that players can achieve a fairly high ilvl without doing challenging content, which as stated, causes to not learn passively through overcoming increasing difficulty and instead get thrown into the deep end when they hit their ilvl ceiling thru soloable content and begin doing M+.

M+ 6/7 are already easy, but it is what Blizz do, nerf anything if a loud minority complain enough There has never been a proper learning curve in the game tbh, different levels of raiding and M+ is the best it's ever had for that. It used to be far worse in terms of difficulty gaps, this is just another click bait video.

Well his base are a bunch of nubs, so that makes sense.

This video should only be aimed at new players as well, how many new players does WoW get these days? That even make it to end game.

Simple solution, you can't do a mythic 6 until you, yourself have unlocked that key. Meaning you'd have to at least done a M+3 (if you got a +3). Would also mean you have no choice but to start from M0.

So what is trivial content?
-LFR (340)
-World Bosses (355)
-Weekly Quests (meaning M0 is trivial content, which i agree, they are simple, not sure if you do, vary 1x355-370)
-WQs (rarely drop high lvl gear)
-Warfronts (1x370 every 2/3 weeks? able to get crap 340 gear)

If you only do this content, it's still going to take you sometime to get to 355-360ilvl. You should already have experience of the 5 mans as well through M0 weekly quests.

Why would you not try any M+ all these weeks while gearing up? Fear of grouping? Just wanting to play solo?

[Deleted]

The game has that. You level up, you do dungeons, you do raids. You pick whatever difficulty suits you and then you progress through it. Or you do mythic+ and progress through those.

Nope you boost your character. You level up 10 levels. You join LFR. You quit the game. Thats how current casual progression work.

[Tekkommo]

Nope you boost your character. You level up 10 levels. You join LFR. You quit the game. Thats how current casual progression work.

I wonder why they even bother.

[Zyrinx]

I dont think it is about the community, but about the level of commitment. People want to play games for fun, and not to wipe over and over.

I think its both TBH. At least speaking for myself.

[Poppincaps]

I know a lot of people in this thread are using Ghostcrawler's statements and while I believe he is absolutely right, I think he is only right in regards the expansion he made that statement. The playerbase went from Heroic dungeons that were completely faceroll to Cata Heroics which were close to BC Heroics in difficulty. This resulted in people hitting a huge wall one they didn't feel prepared for which resulted in many people quitting like Ghostcrawler stated. What he failed to acknowledge in that post though is that Blizzard didn't not do a good job at creating a smooth difficulty curve. In their defense the only real meaningful areas of PVE progression were leveling, dungeons, and then raids.

Now, we have leveling, islands, warfronts, dungeons, Mythic +, and raiding. The order I just listed should provide a route that players should go through to progress both their characters and their skills. In these areas, Blizzard should focus on honing the skills that players will need later in the progression system. Certainly not easy nor will it completely prevent players from giving up but it'd give players more meaningful content that they may have to struggle with a little bit before being able to move on with. Then, by the time they hit a wall, they'll be more invested. Problem is that people faceroll all the content in the game until they hit high mythic + keys or Mythic raiding and then just give up because they're not accustomed to struggling and now, not only are they struggling but they feel hopeless.

[lockybalboa]

This fat self-righteous prick is starting to get big-headed lately just because he's started some M raiding lol. And he was supposed to be a champion for the casuals a while ago? Fat fucking phony.

[mysticx]

Actually, the game offers close to no tutorials when it is about class gameplay, and you need to get all those infos from 3rd party sites or streamers.

People do not learn from blaming them. They will quit. People do not learn from brick walls in the content they have to play. They will quit. All that is well summarized in GCs post.

People learn if the game tells them how to do it. And they learn even faster if classes are not just easy to learn, but also intuitively to master..

It’s something Blizz did brilliantly in Monk levelling, when i got interrupts or CC abilities, i’d get a quest calling me back to the Monk area where i’d have to fight a master monk, demonstrating what the spells were used for, i’d be fighting a master with a channeled self-heal for “spear hand strike”, one with channeled AoE for “paralysis” (or whatever it’s called), simple quests demonstrating what those skills are good for, wish i had that when levelling my warrior in Vanilla...