Ret Paladins and Mythic +

[Jyggalag]

Then let's go back to the OP's original issue-

"Hey all I just wanted to ask, when it comes to mythic+ do other ret paladins find it hard to find random groups?"

The answer is, yes. It's very hard, because there are far better options.

I never said the answer was no? That's the part you're not getting. I mentioned my personal experience and that at my ilvl I haven't encountered this. I never said it didn't exist - and never argued once that a Ret was more viable than [insert class here].

This is the part where players with more experience can come in and shed light on their own experience, which might be more relevant to the OP's situation, but doesn't invalidate mine.

You tried arguing that bringing drums can get you a spot.

No, i didn't. I made a statement. That blankets as - communicating with the leader, letting them know you're prepared, has its merits.

Claimed that we have solid AoE when we don't (The fact that a 45s CD makes up probably like ~35-40% of our AoE damage is a bad thing).

Nope, wrong again. I claimed we had decent AoE. It's entirely subjective when comparing on a spec by spec basis.

Claimed we have great utility when a vast majority of our utility is either useless, or Holy/prot has it and they're in far higher demand anyway so why bring a ret paladin when you can have either of the superior paladin specs (In fact, Holy/Prot bring MORE utility).

This is the part where your argument loses all credibility. "Useless" utility. Why bring a ret over a prot or a holy paladin? I've no idea why you would. Never argued that you would either. Putting words in my mouth is the only way any of you can seem to make an argument. It's not clever, and doesn't take much to debunk.

The only time Ret can actually be good is if the affixes are heal intensive, like Bursting or Grievous. And even then, we're STILL not a great pick.

Yep, agreed. Viable pick though? Sure.

Having experience in PvP gives you nothing when it comes to PvE.
Having a cutting edge or AotC means nothing when it comes to M+.
Having a high io score has nothing to do with being a good raider.

Having experience in M+ is very relevant to talking about M+.

This shouldn't even be a point of debate.

Except I have experience at the highest level in all of them, besides M+ in BFA specifically past +5. It's not a point of debate. People keep wanting to bring it up though /shrug

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Irrelevant

Relevant. /10char

[Faesroll]

Except I have experience at the highest level in all of them, besides M+ in BFA specifically past +5. It's not a point of debate. People keep wanting to bring it up though /shrug

Maybe because it's the whole point of the thread?

[Jyggalag]

Maybe because it's the whole point of the thread?

No, it's not. It is, however, the whole point of your arguement - which is that Ret Paladins Aren't Viable in M+, and "Garbage". You want to reduce my entire 12 years of experience to a single score in today's content, despite me not actively playing, to prove your arguement - which is just wrong.

The whole point of the thread was to gauge, from other Ret paladin's experience, whether they were having a hard time getting picked for M+. You've missed the mark entirely, and I've addressed it, specifically against my experience and my ilvl. You've then claimed something else, which I have debunked multiple times. Half of the posters here coming on telling me I'm wrong are then also commenting saying ret is entirely "viable" but not the best pick, as if I ever argued that they were.

To quote you from eariler

You are completely dilusional.

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Huh, is that why you have all WoD end bosses mythic achievement but only one cutting edge, and that was not even the final boss of the tier? There must not have been many good 2 night/week guilds in WoD.

Feel free to pick at my Legion progress or my M+ scores prior to the pre-patch (I'm taking a break from BFA). https://raider.io/characters/eu/drae...-7.3.2:tier=21

Edit: would love to know which character you have the high M+ experience on.

Great. Now that's out of the way, mind telling me what exactly I've said in this thread isn't correct from my own personal experience again?

[c1v1d]

Then let's go back to the OP's original issue-

"Hey all I just wanted to ask, when it comes to mythic+ do other ret paladins find it hard to find random groups?"

The answer is, yes. It's very hard, because there are far better options.

You tried arguing that bringing drums can get you a spot.
Claimed that we have solid AoE when we don't (The fact that a 45s CD makes up probably like ~35-40% of our AoE damage is a bad thing).

Claimed we have great utility when a vast majority of our utility is either useless, or Holy/prot has it and they're in far higher demand anyway so why bring a ret paladin when you can have either of the superior paladin specs (In fact, Holy/Prot bring MORE utility).

The only time Ret can actually be good is if the affixes are heal intensive, like Bursting or Grievous. And even then, we're STILL not a great pick.



Having experience in PvP gives you nothing when it comes to PvE.
Having a cutting edge or AotC means nothing when it comes to M+.
Having a high io score has nothing to do with being a good raider.

Having experience in M+ is very relevant to talking about M+.

This shouldn't even be a point of debate.

Jester Joe brings up some good points.

[Waltzinblack]

No, it's not. It is, however, the whole point of your arguement - which is that Ret Paladins Aren't Viable in M+, and "Garbage". You want to reduce my entire 12 years of experience to a single score in today's content, despite me not actively playing, to prove your arguement - which is just wrong.

The whole point of the thread was to gauge, from other Ret paladin's experience, whether they were having a hard time getting picked for M+. You've missed the mark entirely, and I've addressed it, specifically against my experience and my ilvl. You've then claimed something else, which I have debunked multiple times. Half of the posters here coming on telling me I'm wrong are then also commenting saying ret is entirely "viable" but not the best pick, as if I ever argued that they were.

To quote you from eariler



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Great. Now that's out of the way, mind telling me what exactly I've said in this thread isn't correct from my own personal experience again?

I pointed this out because you've previously discredited valid posts in this thread by pointing out a lack of notable achievements. So fucking suck it.

[Jyggalag]

I pointed this out because you've previously discredited valid posts in this thread by pointing out a lack of notable achievements. So fucking suck it.

No, you brought this up because you hoped to invalidate my own personal experience because of my current raider.io score, rather than with an actual argument. Stay mad.

[Waltzinblack]

No, you brought this up because you hoped to invalidate my own personal experience because of my current raider.io score, rather than with an actual argument. Stay mad.

There is no single thing more valid than current season m+ score when discussing viability for this season. However I didn't even bring up your current score. Thanks for pointing out that you don't even have that to validate your opinion which you feel so strongly about.

If you were truly as experienced as you say, you'd know that nobody gives a shit what class they invite for low keys because honestly, you can run +5's with literally any combination of class because there's really no difficulty there.

[Faesroll]

No, you brought this up because you hoped to invalidate my own personal experience because of my current raider.io score, rather than with an actual argument. Stay mad.

Because it is irrelevant. You link all these fancy achievements that mean absolutely nothing to M+ these days, just like my lack of them, and think that makes your arguments valid. You're a nobody who is completely delusional about Ret's state in M+. Yes it's viable. So is running 5 Blood DK's or triple feral/shadow priest as DPS. Now go back to your +5 keys, maybe your MDI friend will boost you.

[Jyggalag]

There is no single thing more valid than current season m+ score when discussing viability for this season. However I didn't even bring up your current score. Thanks for pointing out that you don't even have that to validate your opinion which you feel so strongly about.

If you were truly as experienced as you say, you'd know that nobody gives a shit what class they invite for low keys because honestly, you can run +5's with literally any combination of class because there's really no difficulty there.

My only argument about viability was that they are viable. There was no specific level of key mentioned. My own experience validates my own experiences. Who'd have thunk?

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Because it is irrelevant. You link all these fancy achievements that mean absolutely nothing to M+ these days, just like my lack of them, and think that makes your arguments valid. You're a nobody who is completely delusional about Ret's state in M+. Yes it's viable. So is running 5 Blood DK's or triple feral/shadow priest as DPS. Now go back to your +5 keys, maybe your MDI friend will boost you.

And you're even more of a nobody who thinks Ret paladin is garbage. Go back to crying about Rogues and Demon Hunters.

[Waltzinblack]

My only argument about viability was that they are viable. There was no specific level of key mentioned. My own experience validates my own experiences. Who'd have thunk?

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And you're even more of a nobody who thinks Ret paladin is garbage. Go back to crying about Rogues and Demon Hunters.

I tire of your rhetoric. Like many other MMO-Champion posters, when faced with many opposing opinions and solid points/arguments, you're the only one who's right and everyone else is shit at the game. And of course you bust out your list of achievements to back it all up (to show off) and of course you know a guy who was in the MDIs, because that means something

[Jyggalag]

I tire of your rhetoric. Like many other MMO-Champion posters, when faced with many opposing opinions and solid points/arguments, you're the only one who's right and everyone else is shit at the game. And of course you bust out your list of achievements to back it all up (to show off) and of course you know a guy who was in the MDIs, because that means something

WHAT opposing opinions? The only actual opinion I've argued with is a guy claiming Ret paladins are "garbage" and need something outside of their current toolkit to be "viable" in Mythic+ at any level.
The rest of this entire thread has been me debunking claims that I've argued X when I actually haven't, and that a raider.io score of Y is mandatory when giving an opinion piece drawn from my own experience. My list of achievements was referenced only when my skill and knowledge of the game was challenged because of a score in today's game that I don't participate in.

I'm literally begging you to quote anything I've said about the state of Ret paladins that isn't subjectively true.

[Waltzinblack]

WHAT opposing opinions? The only actual opinion I've argued with is a guy claiming Ret paladins are "garbage" and need something outside of their current toolkit to be "viable" in Mythic+ at any level.
The rest of this entire thread has been me debunking claims that I've argued X when I actually haven't, and that a raider.io score of Y is mandatory when giving an opinion piece drawn from my own experience. My list of achievements was referenced only when my skill and knowledge of the game was challenged because of a score in today's game that I don't participate in.

I'm literally begging you to quote anything I've said about the state of Ret paladins that isn't subjectively true.

Okay, let's start with the first thing you said.

Generally have no problem finding groups appropriate to my ilvl.

You're 360. iLevel 360 gear starts dropping from +7 keys and above, but your highest key is a 5, and the one where you dps'd you weren't even in time. Therefore, you haven't found a group appropriate to your item level at all. Maybe ret viability has something to do with this...

[Jester Joe]

I never said the answer was no? That's the part you're not getting. I mentioned my personal experience and that at my ilvl I haven't encountered this. I never said it didn't exist - and never argued once that a Ret was more viable than [insert class here].

It's one thing to claim you haven't had an issue.

Another to claim that ret is in a good spot for this. Have I had issues getting groups? No, because I play with friends, so by the time I get to pugging, I generally shoot for lower keys and let my ilvl/io score show that I'm usually doing higher.

Does that mean it's easy for a ret paladin who's at 350 to get into those +5/+6's they could use? No.
It just means I'm overqualified, and people will take the carry.

Saying we're in a good spot as far as melee goes is just incorrect, and that's why people jumped on your post.

Which to be fair, is more of Blizzard's fault for letting people get so frustrated with their class balance expansion after expansion.

This is the part where players with more experience can come in and shed light on their own experience, which might be more relevant to the OP's situation, but doesn't invalidate mine.

As I said, your experience is mostly either outdated, or not in regards to pushing keys though.

No, i didn't. I made a statement. That blankets as - communicating with the leader, letting them know you're prepared, has its merits.

I mean, I could tell every leader I have pots and flasks, but I would hope that comes as obvious?

Nope, wrong again. I claimed we had decent AoE. It's entirely subjective when comparing on a spec by spec basis.

Again, it's tied to a 45s CD. That isn't even decent. Does Affliction have decent AoE? No. Same issue, their AoE is tied to a 45s CD.

This is the part where your argument loses all credibility. "Useless" utility. Why bring a ret over a prot or a holy paladin? I've no idea why you would. Never argued that you would either. Putting words in my mouth is the only way any of you can seem to make an argument. It's not clever, and doesn't take much to debunk.

Tell me a situation where you can use Hand of Freedom, BoP, and Hand of Hindrance.

I sure as hell can tell you their use and trust me it's niche as hell, a stun would serve the same purpose for two of them, and you can have a holy or prot paladin who loses hindrance sure, but in prots case you gain an aoe snare if talented, and the more useful Hand of Sacrifice, while holy has Sac and Aura Mastery.

It's not about "putting words in your mouth". You claimed we have good utility. My counter point is any utility we do bring is brought by a more desirable spec.
If a group has a prot paladin or a holy paladin, they're not going to pick a Ret for the utility they already have.

If you think that's "debunked", then whatever.

Yep, agreed. Viable pick though? Sure.

Just like you can run with 4-5 shaman healers for raiding.
Why would you though when shamans are suffering and there's far better choices?

Except I have experience at the highest level in all of them, besides M+ in BFA specifically past +5. It's not a point of debate. People keep wanting to bring it up though /shrug

Then you would know there's a drastic difference between all three areas, raiding, mythic+, and PvP.
And none of them are comparable.

[Jyggalag]

Okay, let's start with the first thing you said.

You're 360. iLevel 360 gear starts dropping from +7 keys and above, but your highest key is a 5, and the one where you dps'd you weren't even in time. Therefore, you haven't found a group appropriate to your item level at all.

This is pugs we're talking about. No one doing a +7 wants anything less than 360. That's also got nothing to do with the state of Ret Paladins specifically. And raider.io isn't accurate, I've completed every dungeon at +5 (I think) apart from Siege, as a Ret DPS and done plenty in time. I've only tanked a few.

Still waiting for the part where I've argued with anyone about anything that isn't actually true

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Snip

I think we're finally finding some common ground here. Real arguments based on experience which contradict my experience at a lower level. That's literally all the OP was looking for. A breath of fresh air in comparison to the "you're completely dillusional. Ret is Garbage" rhetoric.

And let's not play dumb. I've raided world top 40, 2.7k bext exp in Arena, 2x HotA rank 1 in europe for 2 entire seasons, and pushed keys like everyone did when they first came out in Legion (with my then guildy now in the MDI finals). In M+ you have to learn the dungeons and affixes and bring a group that compliments each other. There's nothing overly complicated about it. You play your class/spec to the best of your ability and memorize the encounters. They're most certainly comparable.

[Jester Joe]

I think we're finally finding some common ground here. Real arguments based on experience which contradict my experience at a lower level. That's literally all the OP was looking for. A breath of fresh air in comparison to the "you're completely dillusional. Ret is Garbage" rhetoric.

The OP was looking for whether or not others are struggling to find groups too.

While ret isn't garbage by any means, that is the public view of them as far as M+ goes.
It's just how it goes with the in-game community. If you're not the best pick, you're a trash pick.

And let's not play dumb. I've raided world top 40, 2.7k bext exp in Arena, 2x HotA rank 1 in europe for 2 entire seasons, and pushed keys like everyone did when they first came out in Legion (with my then guildy now in the MDI finals). In M+ you have to learn the dungeons and affixes and bring a group that compliments each other. There's nothing overly complicated about it. You play your class/spec to the best of your ability and memorize the encounters. They're most certainly comparable.

A raider isn't going to know that BoP clears Grievous stacks right off the bat.
Nor are they going to know what goes from being "insignificant" in the dungeon to "One shot/wipe mechanics".

Like, if you told someone who only raids that the first boss of Tol Dagor can cause wipes, they'd probably just look at you funny.
Then you stick them in a +10 Tyrannical with necrotic, and suddenly they realize "Wow the tank is getting no healing suddenly!".

Knowing your class is not knowing the dungeon. Knowing the raid is not knowing the dungeon. Knowing the dungeon is not knowing the raid.

That's my point here. You could be part of the World First kill of Mythic Argus, and I still wouldn't take that into account when talking about M+.

[Vellithe]

Retribution paladins are great in M+, but the thing is, you only get 3 DPS slots. A Frost Mage is near mandatory, particularly for 10+. It trivializes multiple mechanics AND affixes. Then what you get next? If you're going to get a melee, it's probably going to be a Rogue: one of the highest DPS, highest mobility, highest survivality, shroud... can unlock stuff, CC, etc. Maybe a DH for burst AoE, dispell and buffing your mages. And you don't want two or more melee, I mean, that's just asking for trouble from a lot of mechanics and even affixes, so that's it for your two choices.

The best utility Retribution brings to M+ is the amount of offheals it can put out while still dealing it's full DPS. The problem is... you don't usually make M+ groups assuming you'll need more healing than you have available, if you did you'd just ditch the healer and grab a better one. Maybe on the higher keys where you just wouldn't have enough healing no matter what? But then, of course, you'll need the mages/dhs/rogues even more...

Really, retribution is okay, but the problem is with three slots you just have other things you need to have on your group, and since there's an overpopulation of melee for a long time, it's rare to have a slot remaining for rets.

Default composition has DK tank, which means we need a DH DPS. If going to need shroud or unlocking, then rogue is also mandatory. And then you have the mandatory frost mage for utility/hero.

This is all because blizzard went back to "Bring the class, not the player" philosophy of old. Retribution has a lot of raid utility, but loses out on M+.

[Jester Joe]

The best utility Retribution brings to M+ is the amount of offheals it can put out while still dealing it's full DPS.

nitpicking this, ret can't put out offheals while dealing full DPS.

The best talent for M+ especially is Word of Glory, which cost 3 HoPo to use, which is one finisher for Ret, and considering our finisher makes up ~40% of our damage (going by a quick glance at my last Fetid kill, a 2 minute fight seems reasonable to go by overall), that can be a big dent.

[Wrecktangle]

Great, haven't made a single arguement against any of these points. You sure are getting yourself all worked up over nothing. Even going through my old posts lol sad, and... mad

Why wouldn't I. I wanted to see if you were just being antagonistic for fun or if you were genuinely delusional. I've learned that it's equal parts both, which was surprising. I felt that tidbit of knowledge was valuable for other posters to see. I can just imagine you and your MDI buddy and he's laughing his ass off behind your back while you try to AOE explosive orbs and wipe repeatedly. Then you bail on the key LOL.

Moving on to your other incredibly "valuable" insight:

Ret paladin is in a good place right now as far as melee DPS go

Lol - Nope.

Ret is one of the best melee to bring to M+

Lol - Nope.

You don't even know what level of key the OP is running or how skilled they are.

Yep we do. You just didn't because you didn't read.

Because you're the unluckiest ret alive with procs or you're doing it wrong? What's more likely?

This above quote was in reference to Ret having 3-4s of downtime. If you actually played Ret, you'd know this is commonplace and can even occur at 30%+ haste. I experience it fairly frequently. Your post implies I'm doing it wrong, yet my logs clearly show otherwise. Wrong again.

Generally have no problem finding groups appropriate to my ilvl.

You state the above without even realizing that the keys you do (+5s) don't even drop gear as high as your current ilvl, thus your statement that you have no problem finding groups appropriate to your ilvl is inaccurate. You aren't doing keys that are appropriate for your ilvl. Wrong again.

Because it doesn't play into the M+ meta doesn't make it not viable, not competitive, or not fun.

Here's a partially incorrect statement. You're correct about fun and viable. NO issues there, but Ret isn't competitive, otherwise I'd be an option in the meta, which it's not.

To quote icy-veins:

LOL.

Listen - do us all a favor.

Call up your "MDI buddy" and ask him to go Ret for it to prove us wrong. I look forward to seeing a Ret enter and do well/win! I can't wait.

[Vonazak]

As a paladin tank that do 2-3 mythic+ daily and always creates his own group, i do not care if the dps is a ret or not. I look at the raider.io score and ilevel. I'll always accept the player with a good score and ilevel of 370+ regardless of class over the player with low score and low ilevel.

[palindrast]

Personally I haven't had any issues getting into groups. I tank and heal a fair bit as well but it's actually easiest for me to get in as DPS. DPS output is a little on the low side but can still be quite competitive. If you look at total DPS + Healing combined then ret is actually quite strong. On a standard run my total healing is usually ~20% of my damage done, with only average 20% overhealing. The added healing helps tanks do bigger pulls, making the runs go faster overall.

You can also bop a bursty dps like DH, so they can go hard on a big aoe pull straight from the start without having to worry about mechanics or aggro. BoP is also great for ToS orb running, removing severing blade debuff in King's Rest if the tank gets 2-3 stacks (if the tank has a cancelaura macro). BoP and LoH can also be used the dot on Waycrest Heartsbane Triad, making it a lot easier. Also the poison/disease dispels comes in very handy in a number of dungeons, for example Siege, Freehold, Temple, Underrot, Atal.

I feel like comp as a whole does not matter as much as people think. For sure if you are gunning for the MDI, you want the best comp. However, I don't have much issue clearing 15-17s running with a few friends, running DH Tank, Disc Priest, Affliction Lock, Ele Shaman and Ret pally. While +15-17 isn't impressive by any means, it is still reasonably competitive. I think only the disc and possibly warlock are meta picks, but we can handle most situations fine.

If kiting is needed, we drop an earth bind. If the tank is getting smashed I pop healing and shaman drops an earth elemental. We got interrupts for days with the 3 sigils + shadowfury + totem + blinding light + howl of terror. Shaman, priest and DH all got ways to deal with Sanguine. Tol Dagor can be unlocked with a scribe just as easily as a Rogue. Shrouds can be replaced with invis pots, gateway or soul stone death runs. 4/5 team members can purge and we cover every type of dispel (roots, magic, curse, poison, disease, physical dots). 3 different CCs (repentance, hex & imprison) for infested mobs, and if one of them runs in the group the warlock can fear them away, priest can MC them away, or I taunt them away to be CCed again.