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  1. #521
    Quote Originally Posted by Zantos View Post
    At times, I hate it. Over all though, I like it since it makes pugs less of a risk. Also helps immensely at low levels where ninja loot was a huge problem in dungeons.
    That's not the issue being discussed, no one is arguing for pugs being able to use ML, this is purely a full, organized, guild raid discussion. Pugs and dungeons have been on perma PL since Legion (dungeons since wod IIRC)

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by trajandreps View Post
    This horse's body has been beaten to a pulp and the train has left the station. ML is gone and so should this thread now.
    Just because it's old news doesn't me we still can't discuss our disgust in it.

  2. #522
    While on a personal level it feels good having the loot first before deciding to give it up , on a raid level becomes harder to track who got upgrades for 3 weeks straight and who got nothing .
    There have been cases with rings and trinket in which I ended up not being able to give them away even though they were awful for me only because of the ilvl limitation on trades , that's bullshit IMO .
    Without a loot council I think raiders even lost motivation , they don't care as much about performing properly because as long as the boss dies no one can deny them loot if the system awarded it to them.
    They already had PL in place on LFG groups , that was totally fine you are risking your time playing with randoms so master loot toxicity was rightfully taken care of but on organized groups I seriously can't find a negative thing about giving player choice, blizzard effort to make raiding an overall positive experience for everyone ends up making raiding bland , no wonder there are more people active on M+ than they are into raiding at least in m+ effort and chance at getting loot is proportional.

  3. #523
    Quote Originally Posted by Onikaroshi View Post
    That's not the issue being discussed, no one is arguing for pugs being able to use ML, this is purely a full, organized, guild raid discussion. Pugs and dungeons have been on perma PL since Legion (dungeons since wod IIRC)
    That is part of the discussion. They saw the success in pugs so of course its been moved into organized raiding. It wasn't permanent at all, just the default selection. It could still very much be changed.

    Like it or not, this isn't just about full, organized raids. This system was born and brought up in pugs. That is where it was really tested and saw success. I mean, how often are trials treated like a pug? All the time. Even if they put in the work, they could end up with squat. Now though, everyone who does it can get loot. It can suck if a guild member needs an item that you can't use, but there is a reason it made it this far and left the pug only scene.
    Quote Originally Posted by scorpious1109 View Post
    Why the hell would you wait till after you did this to confirm the mortality rate of such action?

  4. #524
    Quote Originally Posted by Jastall View Post
    I love being stuck with a 370 weapon while our blood DK tank got a 390 socketed Taloc mace.

    And by love I mean it's total bullshit.
    I'm in quite a similar situation, where I have the lowest ilvl weapon in my raid group at 370 while all the other casters (and even most melee) have >=380 weapons. It's not for a lack of the raid wanting to trade me weapons, they literally can't due to the trade restrictions in a PL system, on top of the randomness of loot from our weekly caches. I just replaced my 345 bear weapon last week since despite raiding mythic for weeks, because of how the PL system works.

    The problem isn't necessarily the PL system, but the problem is the system by itself w/o any reliable method to counter-act said RNG, especially adding WF/TF to the mix. Viable currency/crafting systems that would let you upgrade your gear over time would be amazing, so while you can get lucky with getting a 390 weapon on your first kill you can also upgrade your 370 to 390 over time if your luck is bad over time. They already have currency scaling systems in place that are being wasted by many classes because they can't use said currencies, when gear vendors and/or crafting systems would've been the perfect match.
    “Society is endangered not by the great profligacy of a few, but by the laxity of morals amongst all.”
    “It's not an endlessly expanding list of rights — the 'right' to education, the 'right' to health care, the 'right' to food and housing. That's not freedom, that's dependency. Those aren't rights, those are the rations of slavery — hay and a barn for human cattle.”
    ― Alexis de Tocqueville

  5. #525
    Quote Originally Posted by Zantos View Post
    That is part of the discussion. They saw the success in pugs so of course its been moved into organized raiding. It wasn't permanent at all, just the default selection. It could still very much be changed.

    Like it or not, this isn't just about full, organized raids. This system was born and brought up in pugs. That is where it was really tested and saw success. I mean, how often are trials treated like a pug? All the time. Even if they put in the work, they could end up with squat. Now though, everyone who does it can get loot. It can suck if a guild member needs an item that you can't use, but there is a reason it made it this far and left the pug only scene.
    It actually WASN'T changeable, all of Legion PL was the only loot option available to pugs. And on trials.... any half decent guild is going to EXPLAIN the loot rules to new trials, and if they pass their trial the would have gotten showered with loot, but no, people don't bring up that, they only care about the 2-3 weeks they get scraps because you DON'T invest in someone who may not be there next week.

  6. #526
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ulthane View Post
    Blizzard 2004: Work your ass off for your gear
    Blizzard 2018: Soviet Azeroth

    You mean 2004, 40 man raid bosses that drop 2-3 items. 2018 loot coming faster than a hurricane.
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  7. #527
    Quote Originally Posted by Greathoudini View Post
    ???

    That's all I've got to say to you lol
    If someone asks a question like that, then oh boy they sure as hell won't understand a damn thing out of an explanation
    "Toast" is called "toast" for a reason. That too is a fact that has nothing to do with anything that's being discussed here. If you think I should equip higher strength items just because it's called "primary stat", you're being delusional.

  8. #528
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by neescher View Post
    "Toast" is called "toast" for a reason. That too is a fact that has nothing to do with anything that's being discussed here. If you think I should equip higher strength items just because it's called "primary stat", you're being delusional.
    But but but Blizz said so! Several times! Must be true and all! They have a spotless history of being on point with their declarations, decisions and strategy.

  9. #529
    Quote Originally Posted by Onikaroshi View Post
    It actually WASN'T changeable, all of Legion PL was the only loot option available to pugs. And on trials.... any half decent guild is going to EXPLAIN the loot rules to new trials, and if they pass their trial the would have gotten showered with loot, but no, people don't bring up that, they only care about the 2-3 weeks they get scraps because you DON'T invest in someone who may not be there next week.
    As long as most of them were in your guild, you could change. You're right, no one brings it up because it may or may not hold true. If its a DKP system, it wont hold true. If its a loot council, it Might hold a little truth. I don't go to work for a trial period and not get paid, so why should I raid and be a crucial component to killing a boss and not get loot? This is why they did this. Removes all arguments to be made because you have no choice but to let them have loot now.
    Quote Originally Posted by scorpious1109 View Post
    Why the hell would you wait till after you did this to confirm the mortality rate of such action?

  10. #530
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Zantos View Post
    As long as most of them were in your guild, you could change. You're right, no one brings it up because it may or may not hold true. If its a DKP system, it wont hold true. If its a loot council, it Might hold a little truth. I don't go to work for a trial period and not get paid, so why should I raid and be a crucial component to killing a boss and not get loot? This is why they did this. Removes all arguments to be made because you have no choice but to let them have loot now.
    It only takes away control from players and gives it to Blizz algorithms. So players (loot council) cannot reward what they want, but Blizz can. So raiders are not rewarded on a performance basis but on how Blizz algorithms calculate the need to give them which item so they keep want to spend time and money on Blizz games. In effect it further degrades the need to behave in a social way while incentivising behaviour that turns players into payees.

    All the while there are still people who think “toxicity” has anything to do with this change. Nope. That’s why they won’t revert it. It’s THEIR tool for THEIR purpose. Fanboys can just gtfo if they aren’t considered payee material by scientific revenue algorithms.

  11. #531
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Tsharna View Post
    It only takes away control from players and gives it to Blizz algorithms. So players (loot council) cannot reward what they want, but Blizz can. So raiders are not rewarded on a performance basis but on how Blizz algorithms calculate the need to give them which item so they keep want to spend time and money on Blizz games. In effect it further degrades the need to behave in a social way while incentivising behaviour that turns players into payees.

    All the while there are still people who think “toxicity” has anything to do with this change. Nope. That’s why they won’t revert it. It’s THEIR tool for THEIR purpose. Fanboys can just gtfo if they aren’t considered payee material by scientific revenue algorithms.
    This is just ranting...put that energy into something you can change cause ML is gone for good.

  12. #532
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by trajandreps View Post
    This is just ranting...put that energy into something you can change cause ML is gone for good.
    Oh - something I can change by posting here? Like ... how people see the great, fluffy, cozy uncle Blizz who fights for social justice? Surely you don’t mean anyone posting here should only do that if there is a real chance to change something meaningful in WoW. This approach would kill off any forum, the official ones included. Or just meaningless stuff, like what colour you prefer your Skinner-box in or what material you want your levers to be? Maybe they could listen to that.

  13. #533
    Watch out Tsharna watched Asmongold's video where he says "skinner box" so you know he has a legit opinion.

  14. #534
    weird how 90% of the complaints i read about personal loot would be resolved if there wasn't titanforging.

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