[Spoilers] Lost Honor Cinematic

[Dagoth Ur]

Man, what a dissappointment. The only thing I sincerely hoped wouldn't happen just happened. Foolish of me to expect we'd get "our old Horde" back without some kind of catch.

P.S. - Good to see Anduin's proving to be exactly the disease I thought he'd be as soon as I saw that BfA opening cinematic. At least I am glad that all the jabs thrown at him weren't for nothing.

[Wildberry]

Well I assume that's why players are given the choice to side with either Sylvanas or Saurfang - they can make up their own minds about who they want to follow. Seems fair and realistic to me.

Neither option is good.

Saurfang was betrayed by Sylvanas already and couldn't be considered by anyone to be a part of her new Horde at this point, so him siding with the Alliance to bring her down is totally rational. That the Alliance would accept his help is rational too, as the cinematic makes it pretty clear that they are running out of the resources needed to win the war.

The Warchief literally cannot betray any of his/her subjects.

I don't think she's the kind of leader, however, that deserves to be brought down in an honorable fashion.

Less about honor, more about not collaborating with the enemy.

Besides it begs the question of whether anyone could even realistically beat her in a Mak'gora given her undead nature and abilities.

If he can't, he needs to fight harder, or accept that by established laws she deserves to be Warchief.

So why weren't they enthralled by the Warbringers cinematic? At least not anywhere near as much as this cinematic. And it's not because people don't like Warbringers or anything, the Jaina one got super high praise and views.

Warbringers had plenty of people white knighting it, to suggest otherwise is pure revisionism.

I think it's time we face the fact that most of the playerbase doesn't give much of a shit about the faction conflict beyond a very basic, surface-level appreciation for their own faction, and not even that much since lots of people play both. Blizzard knows this and it is why we are moving on from it with all haste. If it means dodgy writing, well, that's not exactly new.

At least you're admitting that this is dodgy (read: Atrocious, unbearable and complete and utter garbage) writing.

I play both factions chief, I actually played Horde more in BFA before I unsubbed

From the sounds of your posts on General, you didn't play BfA much at all. (Not that I blame you, the expansion is terrible).

Do my Alliance alts for Garrison-abuse during WoD grant me a "fair and balanced" perspective?

Witch everything we have its just that Anduin let saurfang get way, so he can stop sylvanas, this don't mean they are super duper friends, or mean the war will be over when she is down, or mean it will not be a makgora down the way, they need to milk this shit drama until 8.4

This cinematic makes it pretty clear that the war ends once Sylvanas is gone. Anything else is just wishful thinking. It hypothetically could go on, due to unforeseen Alliance excesses, but we know how unlikely those are.

[Syegfryed]

And the solution is to betray his own family? Remember Nazgrim, he died for the Horde.

Sylvanas is not his family

[Hubbl3]

He believed in the capture of Teldrassil. And in removing the Alliance from Kalimdor.
He just wasn't a genocidal murderer (anymore..cough) nor does he condone using blight/necromancy on his own troops.
If he took leadership he'd be in similar shoes to Orgrim post-First War. Knowing that the Alliance is coming for retribution regardless of leadership change.
Tyrande (and maybe Malf? Who knows with him.) is not going to stop butchering Horde because the tactician behind her people's near extinction took the reigns from the person ordering said extinction.

That would be a story I can get behind. I just don't see that happen in current WoW. But maybe you're right.

[Timester]

The Horde in its current iteration is not what you are describing at all. Orc culture no longer dominates the Horde under Sylvanas.

Then why she rules from Orgrimmar? The orcs, tauren, trolls were banished from the Horde?

[Powerogue]

She gasses them as part of her war strategy, not as part of an ethnic cleansing program.

And the 2nd was forsaken who decided to defect to Alliance in plain sight, an act of treason.

And the ones who did no such thing, but were trying to run back into her arms, but she was so paranoid she thought "MAYBE they'll betray me eventually!" and killed them anyway. Just like the hit on Saurfang, her protecting herself is causing her to lash out at others who haven't actually acted against her yet.

Very dangerous. If folks find out about that hit on Saurfang, no matter how much she tries to spin it, she'll lose support amongst the Horde. He's a decorated veteran and well-loved hero by all. They wouldn't readily believe he had turned traitor. (I'm saying this regardless of if he does or not)

[rowaasr13]

This forum's an echo chamber, let us not forget it.

It's not even "this forum", I start to notice that it always same specific group of people that lick Sylvanas' boots and barge into every thread frothing their "WARRRRRCraft!" and "Orcs vs Humans is a core!" nonsense.

People, in case you've missed last 16 years of WarCraft development, Orcs vs Humans WAS a core, but since WC3 we have many more other, more important WARs to fight. "Like fools, we clung to the old hatreds", indeed. Do you need a reminder where's that quote from? For many people "their Horde" is WC3/original WoW's Horde. And it's pretty easy to see who's "traitor" to that.

[jackofwind]

I hope you're right.

The difference between Saurfang and Sylvanas represents the difference between the old and new Horde.

Saurfang would plan and execute a very well organized and effective attack against the Night Elf capital city. He's not afraid of a fight, and he's a formidable warrior.

Sylvanas would burn the non-combatant civilians of that capital city alive on a whim after already having beaten them in a pitched battle. She's not afraid of a fight, but she's also unstable and willing to cause wanton destruction against innocents.

I wouldn't ever expect Saurfang to be afraid of going to war for what he truly believes in.

[Velshin]

jaina was let to live with her people in kalimdor for a truce that she made with Thrall as long she and her forces didnt harm the horde

I know but my point is the New Horde existed because of the Alliance.

[Zandalariprelate]

So Saurfang is indeed Anduin's little bitch. This is beyond disgusting. And of course no one could have forseen this brilliant development ever.

It's almost like he was some author pet or something crazy like that, dude I really want someone like Illidan or Mal'ganis beat the shit out of that kid

[Timester]

Sylvanas is not his family

No, the Horde is. And that's what he is going against. Remember, he choose to leave the Horde during the Stockades assault.

[rowaasr13]

And the ones who did no such thing, but were trying to run back into her arms, but she was so paranoid she thought "MAYBE they'll betray me eventually!" and killed them anyway.

Nah, it is even that. BtS pretty clearly says that she killed them for "daring to have hope", which she despises. She's as anti-hope, anti-life as she can be.

[Wildberry]

It's not even "this forum", I start to notice that it always same specific group of people that lick Sylvanas' boots and barge into every thread frothing their "WARRRRRCraft!" and "Orcs vs Humans is a core!" nonsense.

Pro-Sylvanas posters aren't the ones saying that the core of Warcraft is "Orcs v. Humans." In this forum, they've been on full display arguing against that.

For many people "their Horde" is WC3/original WoW's Horde. And it's pretty easy to see who's "traitor" to that.

No, being a "traitor" isn't relative. You don't get to completely reinvent the Horde and then moan about how deviations from it are treasonous, I don't care which iteration the Horde was in when you started.

[Syegfryed]

This cinematic makes it pretty clear that the war ends once Sylvanas is gone. Anything else is just wishful thinking. It hypothetically could go on, due to unforeseen Alliance excesses, but we know how unlikely those are.

Saurfang say he want his horde back, his horde fights the "good war", he as a character could go with the war pretty fine, when they said it will not be SoO 2.0 maybe could be just this, the war goes on, and nobody win, just a "pause" because n'zoth/asharan, but the war still goes on

The problem is they need the war to stop because it is blizzard, if its stop, so be it, at least we have an orc again, anything is better than a redemption sylvanas screaming Azeroth is free and continuing to be warchief.

[OIS]

What the hell lol. This is bad. I'm probably at fault for expecting something more but what's the purpose of this cinematic even? Other than pissing people off, that is. I expected something like Saurfang and Anduin having this deep conversation about war, the Horde and the Alliance, the meaning of honor, stuff like that. Instead there's just some generic stuff nobody really asked for. It looks very good as always, I'll give them that but there has to be something more. What Saurfang said doesn't even make sense lol. Everybody is like "waah Sylvanas is destroying the Horde" but how? She didn't do any of the stuff Garrosh did, for starters. The Horde was fine. I think there just has to be some retirement plan for old veterans. Nobody can fight forever, obviously. It wears the soul down.

Blizzard shouldn't have brought the story here, this isn't one of their RTS games, WoW isn't a game where you can bash your Warchief's skull and everything turns out okay. The players are a part of the universe, they are in the story, they are experiencing it as someone who lives in the world does. So when Saurfang collaborates with the Alliance and players perceive it as a betrayal to the Horde, or at the very least as not something an orc should do, it automatically becomes a betrayal to them too, because they are the Horde. I think that's why there's a greater outrage. That's my two cents on the matter.

[Syegfryed]

No, the Horde is. And that's what he is going against. Remember, he choose to leave the Horde during the Stockades assault.

he will be back, god forbid a character with nuances who did mistaken and regret things

[Villager720]

No, the Horde is. And that's what he is going against. Remember, he choose to leave the Horde during the Stockades assault.

That's like saying the Italians who killed Mussolini were against Italy. A leader =/= a faction/state.

[Minikin]

Let's also drop the real-world history and politics as well - they are distracting and derailing an already contentious thread.

Everytime blizzard opens a new cinematic or lore related item I feel so bad for you lol. Because I know this place is about to erupt with all this...errr...discussion...and you have to wade through literally all of it.

[Sharby]

I love Anduin so much. I'm glad they seem to be working together hopefully we can take a break from the edgyness for a bit.



Also not surprised this forum is upset about it.

[rowaasr13]

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Annie_Lansing survived.
Everyone who left before the Calia incident was not killed.

Exactly as I just said above and BtS explicitly spells it out: Annie was spared because Sylvanas was glad to see hope dying in her. The rest, who still had positive emotions from meeting - were executed.