[Spoilers] Lost Honor Cinematic

[ohwell]

What do you guys think Saurfang is offered to eat while he's staying in the Stockades?

There's bread on the table.

[LazarusLong]

Well, in theory, Horde is supposed to follow their Warchief to the end... which of course would mean that they already failed to do that with Garrosh, so it's a moot point anyway.

Orgrim says hi.

[Skulltaker]

No, being a "traitor" isn't relative. You don't get to completely reinvent the Horde and then moan about how deviations from it are treasonous, I don't care which iteration the Horde was in when you started.

I'd say breaking your oath and disobeying a direct command of your superior makes you a traitor, though. Which is what Sylvanas did.

[Timester]

Wanting to save your people (the Horde) doesn't make you an alliance puppet.

Saving is fighting for them, not working with the enemy to kill them for the enemy.

I don't think those Italians were Allied puppets. They were people taking their nation away from destructive hands.

No, but Saurfang is.

That's the fricking problem here, the Horde is being saved by the Alliance once again. MoP 2.0. At least Vol'jin organized the rebellion before getting Alliance's help, Saurfang is being used as an Alliance trump card since day one.

[Jastall]

So Anduin says in the battle for Lordaeron that Saurfang spared his life ?

If i look at the cinematic it looks that Greymane punches Saurfang while he was trying to kill Anduin.

So.....what gives ?

I think Saint Anduin is referring to the time Saurfang knocks him on his ass instead of cleaving him in two. It's kind of a blink and you miss it moment in the cinematic, but as Anduin fights two random grunts Saurfang comes up to him in the background, lifts his axe, then decides to butt the king with the handle instead, sending him flying.

I thought at first this would be because Varian let him carry Dranosh's body from ICC- a favor for a favor, a son for a son and all that. I think Saurfang's actual motivation at the time is pretty weak and the closest to actually being treasonous as he wants his side to lose the battle he's fighting (literally, what, an hour after Zappyboi makes him fight for the Horde) so that Sylvanas dies.

[Super Dickmann]

I'd say breaking your oath and disobeying a direct command of your superior makes you a traitor, though. Which is what Sylvanas did.

Tell you what about Sylvanas, while she's also a traitor as regards Garrosh she at least isn't an Alliance puppet, which we can't say about Saurfang.

[Villager720]

Saving is fighting for them, not working with the enemy to kill them for the enemy.



No, but Saurfang is.

That's the fricking problem here, the Horde is being saved by the Alliance once again. MoP 2.0. At least Vol'jin organized the rebellion before getting Alliance's help, Saurfang is being used as an Alliance trump card since day one.

Not saying I endorse the story direction. Just saying that Saurfang being against Sylvanas, an illegitimate warchief, isn't traitorous.

[ohwell]

Being a traitor is absolutely relative based on who is in power. Stalin came into power and many people who were ardent supporters of the former regime were traitors to him, though they all were loyal to Russia.

You are looking at things from a totally unrealistic black and white point of view.

Yes and no. To him she's a traitor because he believes she betrayed the horde. He is a traitor to the Horde if there are any negative repercussions to his aiding the Alliance. He is a traitor to the current government not matter what point of view you have. Anyone who goes against a government in their country is a traitor until said government is deposed. It's the definition of the word. If I did what Saurfang is doing and caught, I would be tried for treason. In the US you can be executed for treason if there was a war going on. Spying for another nation in the US or declaring allegiance to them and giving secrets is treason in the real world.

[LazarusLong]

The problem isn't the in-universe reasoning of getting along with the Alliance in terms of diplomacy. It's the fact this whole story arc hinges on the war being over, once Sylvanas is dethroned, which is Saurfang making the supremely naive assumption that the Alliance would let the rest of the Horde (who were either complicit or 100% on board) get away with genocide, again.

It's a part of the inherent premise-related problem of how the story even got here in the first place (i.e nobody in the Horde but Saurfang making the slightest act of resistance against Sylvanas' plans from the War of Thorns to 8.1, which is still ridiculous), making the Horde cast aside from the Zandalari look like a cavalcade of idiots.

Exactly. The idiocy started with the War of Thorns.

[Wildberry]

Saurfang say he want his horde back, his horde fights the "good war", he as a character could go with the war pretty fine, when they said it will not be SoO 2.0 maybe could be just this, the war goes on, and nobody win, just a "pause" because n'zoth/asharan, but the war still goes on

The problem is they need the war to stop because it is blizzard, if its stop, so be it, at least we have an orc again, anything is better than a redemption sylvanas screaming Azeroth is free and continuing to be warchief.

Judging by the character "growth" he's gone through, I'm not so confident in his willingness to fight good wars anymore. Beyond that, does Saurfang even deserve to be called an Orc at this point? He's arguably surpassed Thrall.

Yes they can. Are you seriously coming in here and saying that if a Warchief started killing all their own subjects for no reason, that's just something everyone should roll over and take? A leader is there to lead their subjects, regardless of what they title themselves.

Desolate Council were traitors. Horde PC helps get those caught in the blight out of it. Saurfang specifically wasn't betrayed in any sense by Sylvanas.

Elisande, Kael'thas, we went through the list already. Plenty of leaders betrayed their subjects by working against their best interests. The nightborne would have all been thrown into the soul furnaces, one by one, with Elisande being the last one in, if their people hadn't stepped up and stopped her.

I've already told you why these examples are dumb and false equivalencies.

Handwaving all the opinions you don't like as white knighting is convenient but not really honest.

That's exactly what they are though. There's really nothing else to call them aside from dumb, maybe. I highly doubt you're going to make a compelling case on the Warcraft Youtube comments section being anything but.

Even the most fascist of dictators can be seen to be betraying his or her subjects by those subjects. That's all that matters when they're the ones deciding to go against that leader. Whether the leader thinks they betrayed anyone is completely inconsequential. The Horde isn't a bunch of brainwashed zombies - even the Forsaken don't blindly follow. What you're describing is just another step towards the Scourge 2.0 or Fel Orcs where they just follow their supposedly omniscient leadership.

I'm not calling for blind obedience to Sylvanas, I'm just stating that Saurfang wasn't betrayed. That's not a matter of opinion, it's a matter of fact. Regarding his own disagreements with Sylvanas, he's not obligated to sit and follow her. There's a mechanism in-place for hashing out disagreements with the Chieftain/Warchief.

Mak'gora is an orc/ogre tradition. Sylvanas likely wouldn't even be interested in having one

So is every other Horde institution that she's benefitting from. What's she going to do? say no? She loses all credibility among the Horde at that point.

certainly wouldn't fight fairly if she did.

If she cheats, she loses all credibility among the Horde.

She would absolutely have a contingency plan in case she was overpowered, like flooding the arena with Blight or something similar.

And such a contingency doesn't end with her retaining her position.

Plus she's already dead. So what now, how does she lose in a fight where her opponent is only allowed a single weapon while she possesses all the powers of a banshee?

Because both participants are only allowed one weapon?

[Timester]

Not saying I endorse the story direction. Just saying that Saurfang being against Sylvanas, an illegitimate warchief, isn't traitorous.

Of course it is. Why you think Anduin is using him? Because it's the dictionary definition of treachery.

[Deleted]

So he is actually a traitor.

#TeamSylvanas

Normally, I would not root for Sylvanas, because she's a psycho. But now... I cannot feel but contempt for Saurfang. Disgusting.

[Syegfryed]

No, BOTH are bad. Something that some people can't seem to see.

Again: regardless if both are bad or good,we will stay with one of those, its just the obvious thing blizzard going to do

[ohwell]

Not saying I endorse the story direction. Just saying that Saurfang being against Sylvanas, an illegitimate warchief, isn't traitorous.

How is she an illegitimate warchief? Did she kill Vol'jin and declare herself in charge? Previous warchiefs of the horde have handed power to a successor. Thrall to Garrosh, Garrosh was beaten and Thrall and the leaders passed it to Vol'jin but mostly Thrall, Vol'jin to Sylvanas. Just because you don't like her doesn't make her not legitimate. Thrall made a misinformed decision on Garrosh, doesn't make Garrosh illegitimate. Vol'jin had someone influence him, doesn't make the passing illegitimate.

Regardless, he is committing acts that are treason. He is a traitor.

[Deleted]

Fuck you Anduin. The Alliance isn't fighting to end the war, it's fighting for Survival !

Seriously, you pathetic loser !

The Alliance being weeks away to defeat the Horde my ass...

[Wildberry]

Being a traitor is absolutely relative based on who is in power. Stalin came into power and many people who were ardent supporters of the former regime were traitors to him, though they all were loyal to Russia.

You are looking at things from a totally unrealistic black and white point of view.

Go reread the post I was responding to, and maybe you'll get the point.

Orgrim says hi.

Orgrim didn't collaborate with Llane and Lothar. He crushed Blackhand's skull in a duel that's explicitly sanctioned in Horde culture, and then went on to burn Stormwind.

I hope you can see the difference.

I'd say breaking your oath and disobeying a direct command of your superior makes you a traitor, though. Which is what Sylvanas did.

This would be an epic "gotcha" if I hadn't made this point repeatedly.

[Timester]

Again: regardless if both are bad or good,we will stay with one of those, its just the obvious thing blizzard going to do

So, we can't tell that the narrative sucks balls and make Blizzard rethink stuff before going deep?

[Feanoro]

"Ermagerd, perpet!" I must have missed the part in the cinematic where Saurfang was given orders, made to swear loyalty, or fucking ANYTHING beyond "You want a shot at her, go for it." So not only did we handwave every single advantage Alliance had at the end of Legion (you know, that made this war idiotic from the moment it was announced), it says we're too weak to stop the New Scourge.

For Horde side, it says all your leaders and people are too weak and ineffectual to so much as say "No, we're not going to do that." to the Lich Queen. For those who like the New Scourge, did you really think it was the new normal? For the actual Horde players, I'm sorry we all have to suffer Garrosh again. Don't worry, we'll hear all about the Horde took care of itself and the Alliance just tagged along, again.

Yeah at this point blizzard wants to cather toward the 49% of alliance players, ignoring most wow horde players doesn't like the alliance or else theh would be playing over there

It's cute you think it has anything to do with the story. Horde had better racials for pve and pvp, with entire raid guilds transferring for them. Would be recruits followed them. Eventually, it hit a point where the recruiting pool was greater on Horde than Alliance.

GC slipped up and admitted they wouldn't change them until they thought they had made all the transfer money they could. Even when they did "balance" them, it wasn't enough to stop the shift, because there was no reason for guilds to pay to go back. Most players don't give a damn about the story. Also, you must have missed how every interview about BFA was about telling the Horde not to worry, all would be fine.

Haha so even the cinematic about the alliance. Is about the Horde.

Hahaha.

Oh god.
Go fuck yourselves Blizzard.

But but but, the Sylvanas Tactical Defense assured me there's no Horde bias?!

[LazarusLong]

Tell you what about Sylvanas, while she's also a traitor as regards Garrosh she at least isn't an Alliance puppet, which we can't say about Saurfang.

She is most definitely a puppet though. Some entity who made her the Warchief in the first place.

[Villager720]

Of course it is. Why you think Anduin is using him? Because it's the dictionary definition of treachery.

Why does him being let out of prison mean he's a puppet? Anduin is hoping for political fallout from his release, but it doesn't mean they're in cahoots going forward.
The Germans sent Lenin to Russia to start a revolution in WW1. Were Lenin and the Bolsheviks also German puppets?
Boy that worked out well for them.