Saurfang is a traitor!

[Pillerina]

The point is Sylvanas' plan was flawed from the very start.

I don't care how much of a strategist or master planner she was aspiring to be. War brings death, losses for EVERYONE involved. The best scenario for both the Horde AND the Alliance is peaceful coexistence. Anduin knows it, Baine knows it, even Genn could have accepted it somehow. It was going in that direction, until Sylvanas brought up decades old conflicts to get the other Horde leaders to agree with her, and was completely absorbed by her paranoid thoughts that the Alliance would destroy the Horde to get Azerite when there were no realistic indicators that would point to that being the case, with Anduin's personality. It's Sylvanas that's too full of hate towards life and can't let her past go, and she's damning the whole Horde for it.

There's this new thing called game theory.

Edit: Did not mean to sound rude, but it's been too long since i studied economics for me to feel confident explaining it in any detail, the jist of it though is: Let's say the alliance and horde have a peace agreement, because as you say all lose in war, if both keep the agreement they both benefit, if one of them breaks the agreement and the other follows through they will catch the other unprepared and gain territory and resources, but the other will be ravaged, and if you both break it both will be ravaged. The rational thing to do might be for both to keep the agreement, but since that's the rational thing for the first party the rational thing for the second party would be to break it ending up in a weird rock paper scissor style of reasoning most likely ending with the agreement broken.

[Evilfish]

Greymane's attack is not enough to justify the extent of Sylvanas' worries. Greymane is alone, the rest of the Alliance stands behind Anduin. Besides, thanks to Greymane we realized Sylvanas was up to something in Stormheim.

Only he didn't realize anything unless you want to ignore his dialogue with Rogers before departing from Stormheim. Also I believe it was thanks to SI:7 that you found out about what Sylvanas was planning. Maybe I'm wrong.

Also I do believe that a direct attack on the leader of a faction or several by the leader of another is considered a hostile act and a reason to go to war, but that's not the point. If anything Anduin proves he can't leash his goons and keeps proving that with Calia's little attempt from Before the Storm.

[Talgriv]

So we should start a war today, because there is a possibility that someday, who knows when, someone will show up and destroy us? Rather than try to work towards peace now when it's possibile, estabilishing a precedence for new generations, that over time will make it less likely that someone will start a war on us? Really?

Greymane's attack is not enough to justify the extent of Sylvanas' worries. Greymane is alone, the rest of the Alliance stands behind Anduin. Besides, thanks to Greymane we realized Sylvanas was up to something in Stormheim.

The Horde was outnumbered by the Alliance. If peace talks failed, if Greymane (who as far as the Horde leaders know -- they don't get all the information we get, keep in mind -- was *never* punished, and potentially *sanctioned* by the Alliance, to attack the Warchief of the Horde during a time of neutrality) decided to attack again, if any number of other things happened, the Horde would be WAY behind.
The preemptive strike evened the ground.
Taking Teldrassil captive would've let the Horde negotiate a peace on their terms. They were to be split and divided, and a big war like this could've been avoided with that one attack.
Killing Malfurion was key to that plan, and his "impossible survival" meant that the Kaldorei would still have hope, that Elune was still with them, not just despair and anger that their Goddess let this happen.
Saurfang decided it was dishonorable, and his actions led to what they did; Sylvanas having to find another way to bring them to either despair, or just blind fury. The latter worked, the leaders fell into trap after trap after trap, and would have died a couple of times, if not for Deus Ex reinforcements

Edit:
You also have to think, the Horde was sending their army to Silithus (so the Alliance thought). The Alliance had sent their army to Silithus too, after hearing that. That would've caused just as much of a conflict, a full army vs army fight. Wouldn't have the same political effects and outcomes, no, but it'd still be a war, and the Alliance would be more of an aggressor there.

[valax]

Anduin invited Saurfang to join the party.
Saurfang joins the group.
Party converted to a raid.
You have joined a raid.

YAY lets kill Sylvanas for the true horde!

WHAT IF Sylvanas and Saurfang are playing Anduin , their goal for this war was separate the alliance races .. well she knew already Anduin wouldn't kill outright Saurfang , she knows he respect his honor from stories told by his father and that he would ask him to help overthrow her..
Now the prince has gone and freed a prisoner , what happens when said prisoner shows up on the battlefield slaying more alliance soldiers?

[KaPe]

WHAT IF Sylvanas and Saurfang are playing Anduin , their goal for this war was separate the alliance races .. well she knew already Anduin wouldn't kill outright Saurfang , she knows he respect his honor from stories told by his father and that he would ask him to help overthrow her..
Now the prince has gone and freed a prisoner , what happens when said prisoner shows up on the battlefield slaying more alliance soldiers?

So far we see him killing Dark Rangers and not alliance soldiers. Must be one hell of a deception.

[Lulbalance]

The leader of the horde that every horde hates. When does this childish reactions stop?

You cant decide if you want vanilla or chocolate.

speak for yourself.

People like Sar get more people killed pretending bullshit principles like honour mean absolutely anything in war. I'm gonna enjoy watching that traitorous dog die drowning in his own blood

[KaPe]

speak for yourself.

People like Sar get more people killed pretending bullshit principles like honour mean absolutely anything in war. I'm gonna enjoy watching that traitorous dog die drowning in his own blood

Honor is one of the things that prevents Jaina from flooding Orgrimmar again. Or any other atrocity that would be justified according to you, "because it's war". Once both sides switch to total war and stop holding back, everyone loses.

[Soeroah]

It's so weird to me, seeing people call Saurfang a traitor because of the cinematic, where he explicitly says Sylvanas is ruining and abusing the Horde he's fought to protect all these years.

Betraying the Horde would be joining the Alliance and fighting the Horde. He's fighting with a shared goal to get rid of Sylvanas, specifically. That's not really being a traitor. If anything Sylvanas is a traitor to the Horde, given as soon as she got power she's started trashing all the diplomacy between factions Garrosh managed to not destroy, and she's done more to make the Alliance hate the Horde as a whole than any other force has.

And I say that as a Sylvanas fan who hates the way she's being written this expansion, and wanted her to remain the in-the-shadows conniving force you can never quite trust.

[Evilfish]

It's so weird to me, seeing people call Saurfang a traitor because of the cinematic, where he explicitly says Sylvanas is ruining and abusing the Horde he's fought to protect all these years.

Betraying the Horde would be joining the Alliance and fighting the Horde. He's fighting with a shared goal to get rid of Sylvanas, specifically. That's not really being a traitor. If anything Sylvanas is a traitor to the Horde, given as soon as she got power she's started trashing all the diplomacy between factions Garrosh managed to not destroy, and she's done more to make the Alliance hate the Horde as a whole than any other force has.

And I say that as a Sylvanas fan who hates the way she's being written this expansion, and wanted her to remain the in-the-shadows conniving force you can never quite trust.

How is Sylvanas abusing the Horde?

[Mardux]

Time to restore the Horde to its former glory.

Saurfang, it's your time to show her!

Former glory being alliance lapdogs.

That said, sylvannas still needs to go. Just that horde becoming alliance shouldn't be the way its done.

[Pillerina]

WHAT IF Sylvanas and Saurfang are playing Anduin , their goal for this war was separate the alliance races .. well she knew already Anduin wouldn't kill outright Saurfang , she knows he respect his honor from stories told by his father and that he would ask him to help overthrow her..
Now the prince has gone and freed a prisoner , what happens when said prisoner shows up on the battlefield slaying more alliance soldiers?

Honestly the only way this can end in a satisfying manner for my BAE Saurfang, would make total sense for them to gamble with him at lordaeron aswell, either it works or he gets his honourable death in battle.

[RangerDaz]

This is total bullshit. He is now working with the Alliance to bring down the leader of the Horde. He needs to die to the hands of Sylvanas for his traitorous ways. Also more bullshit from Blizzard paving the way even more for SoO 2.0 with Sylvanas as the last boss. I'm very close to being done with WoW with all the bullshit they released today and recently.

Voljin did the same thing in MoP and there wasnt such a big fuss about it.

Fights for power are exactly this, they need to get allies to support their cause, and sometimes the least expected allies are the ones who help you.

Btw, i dont think Sylvanas will be killed off the story. She will be needed to guide the dark rangers hero class in the shadowlands, which will happen in the next expansion

[Ersula]

Former glory being alliance lapdogs.

That said, sylvannas still needs to go. Just that horde becoming alliance shouldn't be the way its done.

I don't think Sylvanas will be warchief much longer but personally they seem to be tearing down ALL the characters.

*Sylvanas didn't even want to be Warchief
*Seige of Orgrimmar was the Horde & Alliance working together because the rest of the Horde publically denounced Garrosh & the Alliance was going to attack Org anyway. Here we see Saurfang working with Anduin even though most of the Horde is fine with Sylvanas. The Biggest detraction is Baine showing mild concern & Talanji snaps at him when he proposes peace talks after the Seige of Zuldazar.
*If Sylvanas were getting the Garrosh treatment they wouldn't give you the option of siding with her against Saurfang, even if it wasn't in the game initially

[KaPe]

*If Sylvanas were getting the Garrosh treatment they wouldn't give you the option of siding with her against Saurfang, even if it wasn't in the game initially

This proves nothing. Unless the choice ultimately alters the story and there's some actual split along the line, it's more like "Telltale's pseudo decision". Wasn't there even a "Zekhan will remember this" line?

[RuneDK]

I hope Sylvanas will drop a sweet mount.

That cinematic gave me a hope for getting rid of factions and their restrictions.

If the void is next the only way to go forward is to get rid of factions imho. we'll see...but im hoping myself for this as well.

[Pillerina]

Voljin did the same thing in MoP and there wasnt such a big fuss about it.

Fights for power are exactly this, they need to get allies to support their cause, and sometimes the least expected allies are the ones who help you.

Btw, i dont think Sylvanas will be killed off the story. She will be needed to guide the dark rangers hero class in the shadowlands, which will happen in the next expansion

It always kinda irked me that people weren't more pissed off that the horde essentially became a vassal state under the alliance. What happened at the end of SoO is pretty much the exact same thing as happened to most peoples conquered by for example the romans, except we don't know much about azeroth taxation and such things. And people accuse blizz of horde favouritism.

[Soeroah]

How is Sylvanas abusing the Horde?

Using their resources for her own agenda, including the trashing of any kind of peace Legion brought about...

Raising the Horde soldiers from death as mindless skeletons she got killed herself when she blighted the area outside of Undercity while the Horde were defending it...


Threatening dissenters, lying to fellow leaders of the Horde...

[Necroxis]

> "literally all"
> admits that Lor'themar is still with her and pretends BEs are not a massive part of the faction's army.
> neglects to mention Thalyssra and instead mentions someone with no real political power.
> lists zelling and stone
> does not provide sources and uses headcanon for "literally all" of the list.

To pretend Lor'themar is still some hardcore Sylvanas fan is a joke.

I mention Valtrois because Thalyssra hasn't been in BfA whatsoever after the intro, and Valtrois is the Nightborne character whose perspective you see things from.

Zelling and Stone are very relevant because they're, you know, FORSAKEN now.

Okay. Try harder.

[Alex86el]

In most countries, when the leader bypasses the constitution or the will and ethics of the people,
and abuses his power, it is him who is a traitor and punishable by law.

I guess the Horde has no constitution or laws, but this can still apply, in the broader sense.


Saurfang is sticking to the values on which the New Horde was (supposed to be) based on by Thrall.

Also, are some people stupid? Calling Saurfang a coward.
He always chose to fight with honor, thus limiting himself in battle. If that's not brave i dunno what is.
He loves the Horde more than anybody, and i cannot imagine how hard it was to bury his ego and horde-pride,
and even his reputation, in order to save his faction.

On the other hand, Sylvanas always chooses the easy way of "anything goes" however it suits her at each point.
So who is the coward really?

[Ersula]

This proves nothing. Unless the choice ultimately alters the story and there's some actual split along the line, it's more like "Telltale's pseudo decision". Wasn't there even a "Zekhan will remember this" line?

"Prove" is a nebulous thing when talking about the rationality of the devs. And, yes it's notable considering this is a game where story-spliting is not a thing. It's notable because this ISN'T a choose your own adventure game.

- - - Updated - - -

Saurfang is sticking to the values on which the New Horde was (supposed to be) based on by Thrall.
Also, are some people stupid? Calling Saurfang a coward.
He always chose to fight with honor, thus limiting himself in battle. If that's not brave i dunno what is.
He loves the Horde more than anybody, and i cannot imagine how hard it was to bury his ego and horde-pride,
and even his reputation, in order to save his faction.

Literally everything you said here also applies to what Sylvanas is doing, just replace Thrall with Vol'jin: With the exception of "limiting herself in battle". Why is this considered honorable when you're fighting to protect people?