Saurfang vs Sylvanas, after the cinematic!

[Cyram]

Was going with Sylvanas but with that "I think I might be wrong" kind of feeling, but now I side with her, 100%.
Screw that old green booger coming with his "honor" kneeling to an Alliance King, and saying that he's the one who should defeat her. Vol'jin is turning in his urn right now watching that happen.

[Spichora]

I like how you say your standing with faction. Did you stand with faction when garrosh went crazy? He was your faction leader right?

Also Saurfang believes he is standing with faction. He thinks the horde is going down a terrible path, and that path is not what the horde are about. So in his mind hes doing the right thing.

First things first, I sayed I would stand if I was Hordie! 2nd yes I would have stick with Garrosh all the way up till SoO crap. He knew Alliance was enemy. Lets be honest, Varians Alliance would never allow horde to thrive and he did what he had to do until he went apeshit. Saurfang sided with enemy who bled Horde for generations is so low. As for Sylvanas, maybe she is a maniac and tyrant but she has a plan for Horde, plan for dominance of Kalimdor and total destruction of her enemies.

Whole Saurfang team knew who she was when Vol'jin named her Warchief. As far as i know she had a solid reason to start a war with Alliance. Her ways are twisted but she is the leader. If everyone, who doesnt like the way their leaders govern the state, runs of to opposing force to ask the assistance then that state is weak and need to be wiped out! The idea here isnt that Sylvanas is bad and Saurfang is good morally. Its about the Horde and having a nation who follows the leader. Since Thrall Horde has changed the warchiefs like underwear. And considering Thrall was human raised, who managed to keep all those races togather, it seems in any other leaders hands it starts to crumble. They have so many different agendas. Thats why Alliance is more superior to me! They have unity! Well until BFA at least!

[Dagoth Ur]

God, what the hell are Horde players supposed to be feeling right now? The way they are framing things gives me the impression Blizzard wants you to side with Saurfang. The implication being that I, as a Horde player, am supposed to be exctied for High King Wonderboy and his new buttbudy to "rebuild the Horde"(8.1 dialogue)?

This is fucking maddening.

For me to side with Saurfang he just had to do the good old Orgrim Doomhammer.

I was willing to set the bar even lower and all it really had to happen was for Saurfang not to get involved with Anduin.

What's bothering me the most though is that I really like the direction they've chosen for Saurfang, it's just implementation which sucks. The whole old Horde veteran being hunted by the sins of the past, wanting to shape the Horde into something better was a perfect opportunity to finally find the middle ground between Old Horde and Thrall's Horde, and in process establish a long lasting identity for it. Why they had to compromise it and give it an Anduin shaped twist is just beyond me.

[Eazy]

So we agree that the storyline sucks for everyone, again?

Yes. The storyline is a kinda mess right now.

[RangerDaz]

Was going with Sylvanas but with that "I think I might be wrong" kind of feeling, but now I side with her, 100%.
Screw that old green booger coming with his "honor" kneeling to an Alliance King, and saying that he's the one who should defeat her. Vol'jin is turning in his urn right now watching that happen.

Voljin did the same thing as Saurfang in MoP and no one complained when the troll got alliance help.

Im sorry but i cant understand this mass hysteria about saurfang and anduin. Sylvanas has become too unstable to lead the horde. Why people believe that leaders should be followed blindlessly, instead of thinking that perhaps they might no longer be fit for their leadership title?

[KrakHed]

Maintaining the purpose of the expansion and setting up a workable status quo in game. You are kidding yourself if you think any peace arrangement would last considering the mechanisms of the game. Have the night elves refuse peace because they rightly view the rest of the Horde as culpable in Sylvanas' actions and have Saurfang continue the war before they're interrupted by the Old Gods because he stands by his A Good War reasoning. Then afterwards you can settle into a Vanilla-esque cold war scenario.

I think he's questioning his reasoning, and still in the process of questioning the rest of his reasoning. But if the Night Elves can't be made to back down and Anduin loses control of them, I imagine he'd still have to defend territory. And then the Night Elves can scream at Anduin for being a traitor, trying to make a peace deal with the butcher of Ashenvale behind their backs. Or whatever they call Saurfang these days.

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Voljin did the same thing as Saurfang in MoP and no one complained when the troll got alliance help.

Im sorry but i cant understand this mass hysteria about saurfang and anduin. Sylvanas has become too unstable to lead the horde. Why people believe that leaders should be followed blindlessly, instead of thinking that perhaps they might no longer be fit for their leadership title?

Hell, Vol'jin was being talked down to by Alliance forces, openly insulted, and their leader was much more aggressive than Anduin. Even having a racist fit about Orcs once, even if he had his reasons.

Working with Anduin isn't very damning. Being a traitor isn't Saurfang's problem, it's how dispirited he is and the fact that hhe's looking for someone else to solve his problems. Something Anduin denies him, and basically tells Saurfang that he's going to have to fix shit himself if he wants things to be set right.

[Cyram]

Voljin did the same thing as Saurfang in MoP and no one complained when the troll got alliance help.

Im sorry but i cant understand this mass hysteria about saurfang and anduin. Sylvanas has become too unstable to lead the horde. Why people believe that leaders should be followed blindlessly, instead of thinking that perhaps they might no longer be fit for their leadership title?

It's because Vol'jin was against Garrosh and his plans since the beginning, and because he didn't leave to chill in an Alliance jail during war, chatting with Varian while his people died left and right.
I wouldn't have minded Varok being a fierce opposition to Sylvanas - hell, I wanted a clash between the old school Horde and Sylvanas and her survivalist nature - and we got a little bit of that ("Honor means nothing to a corpse!")... but then the old-school Horde's honor was muddied when Varok gave up and went to prison... I mean, it's not like it wasn't muddied before when Varok threw an axe at Malfurion and then cried because it wasn't honorable, or whatever.
But to make matters worse, Varok could've given a deathblow to Anduin, finally hitting the ALliance where it hurt and maybe having them surrender, thus sparing the lives of the Horde he says to love so much.
That's the issue. Vol'jin rebelled against a Horde he didn't like bu he didn't do it at the expense of casualties from a war he helped plan and made worse because he wasn't man enough to finish the job.

[Dagoth Ur]

Hell, Vol'jin was being talked down to by Alliance forces, openly insulted, and their leader was much more aggressive than Anduin. Even having a racist fit about Orcs once, even if he had his reasons.

Working with Anduin isn't very damning. Being a traitor isn't Saurfang's problem, it's how dispirited he is and the fact that hhe's looking for someone else to solve his problems. Something Anduin denies him, and basically tells Saurfang that he's going to have to fix shit himself if he wants things to be set right.

That's the problem that will likely get solved once the story progresses further. Hell, even in that scenario where you choose who to side with, Saurfang's already looking more determined than before and shows signs of finding some kind of purpose, which is evident in him going somewhere.

Maybe I'm looking too far ahead, but what I'm worried about is whether or not conclusion of this whole storyline will leave us with a leader we'll actually be able to feel good about, or it'll just be "Eh... at least it's not Sylvanas".

[KrakHed]

That's the problem that will likely get solved once the story progresses further. Hell, even in that scenario where you choose who to side with, Saurfang's already looking more determined than before and shows signs of finding some kind of purpose, which is evident in him going somewhere.

Maybe I'm looking too far ahead, but what I'm worried about is whether or not conclusion of this whole storyline will leave us with a leader we'll actually be able to feel good about, or it'll just be "Eh... at least it's not Sylvanas".

Oh yes. Blizzard needs to clue people in on what Saurfang is actually doing, and not just leave them hanging.

[Devilyaki]

Saurfang only wants the best for the Horde based on his personal preferences. Saurfang literally wants Thrall's Horde back. And how did that work out for the Horde in the long term? Not so well i think.

Also Saurfang's egoistic decisions in regards to Malfurion and the war show, that he mostly cares about himself, his view and what he feels good with. He doesn't give a flying crap about the lives of the average Horde member, exceptions are probably characters like Zekhan, who are drooling all over him. But even the likes of him Saurfang left behind to end in some Alliance cell. Otherwise he would have killed Malfurion and wouldn't have abandoned the Horde in the midst of war or wouldn't be collaborating with the enemy. These Horde members who get killed in the Darkshore Cinematic, they died because of his decisions.

No they died cause some crazy undead has it out for everything living and burned civilians. Starting a stupid war that makes no sense to anyone. The alliance had no intentions of fighting the horde after the legion and started to try for peace. She doomed the horde not him.

[Zulkhan]

I'm siding with Sylvanas out of spite, at this point. I'm really, really tired of this nonsense.

[aarro]

I don't get all the hate for Saurfang tbh. It seems he is doing everything possible to make the horde a better faction again and at all costs...

[Itisamuh]

Sylvanas has been my favorite faction based character from the beginning. Her actions since getting the crown have only added to that. I have no interest in the factions being identical. Horde should be the much darker faction in my opinion and she makes it happen.

[mickybrighteyes]

What would even be the point of continuing the war?

because it wouldn't full stop simply because Sylvanas is gone. Tyrande and Malfurion are still pissed about teldrassil. Genn and Jaina still want their pound of flesh.... Anduin is barely able to keep his forces in check given how easily the top brass broke his orders and engaged in their own little war....

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I don't get all the hate for Saurfang tbh. It seems he is doing everything possible to make the horde a better faction again and at all costs...

i disagree. It seems he was more interested in getting his deserved honorable death. He wanted it post broken shore and somehow managed to survive multiple suicide missions. threw himself into the alliance forces solo at lordaeron to just get captured and spared... I'd say he might change after he had to sit in a cell for however many weeks/months he's been there but he did more to help stoke the flames through his own inaction than anything.

[Deleted]

I don't get all the hate for Saurfang tbh. It seems he is doing everything possible to make the horde a better faction again and at all costs...

... and yet his actions and selfish choices could not have been in greater opposition to the Horde if he tried.

[Friendlyimmolation]

I'm siding with Sylvanas out of spite, at this point. I'm really, really tired of this nonsense.

https://i.imgur.com/0Rm25uD.jpg

[Zulkhan]

https://i.imgur.com/0Rm25uD.jpg

Those teeth are scary but I can't stop looking at them.

[Kaver]

Saurfang wants to see the horde as it was in vanilla. Sylvanas is destroying the horde and creating a freak show instead.

[Ramz]

Third option. Just because I dislike now Saurfang doesn't mean that by default I would like Sylvanas. I'm off.

[Harbour]

... and yet his actions and selfish choices could not have been in greater opposition to the Horde if he tried.

What his actions and choices caused the harm for Horde?