M+ increasingly toxic and elitest

[Vintersol]

I wouldn't bother rio much, if people wouldn't act like elitists in perfectly doable low key content. My rogue has ilvl 342 and i don't get a single invite for +2.

[exochaft]

I wouldn't bother rio much, if people wouldn't act like elitists in perfectly doable low key content. My rogue has ilvl 342 and i don't get a single invite for +2.

From what I've seen, those pushing really high keys are less likely to use raider.io scores the wrong way, but it still does happen. However, people using raider.io for mid-to-low range keys, especially keys below the +4 range, are likely using it incorrectly. Everyone craves having that singular metric that they can look at and know everything and anything they would want to know about someone/something, and some people treat raider.io scores as such a thing. Yes, the score is a metric, but it's a pretty useless metric without supporting information that most people don't even bother to check.

Honestly, I have a bigger issue with the raider.io add-on not showing your linked main's score to your alts below a certain score unless you give them money, as it does hinder those that target specific dungeons for specific items versus pushing all dungeons that may not have loot you want (plus I'm not exactly sure that's allowed under the Blizz add-on ToS). Might as well give the player base more information versus less without making people donate on Patreon.

[steelmaggot]

I wouldn't bother rio much, if people wouldn't act like elitists in perfectly doable low key content. My rogue has ilvl 342 and i don't get a single invite for +2.

it took me 3 days to hit 360 ilvl on an alt, 5 days to get over 370. this game throws you free loot left and right. if your main is only 342 you arent really doing content, why would people take you? the other issue is low keys arent really done anymore unless you are super low geared. people want speed and efficiency, none of those you get out of a "doable" group. you put time in to make things easier and quicker, right? week one 342-350 was about average. yeah M0's were cleared by groups rocking 315, 320... but they got there because they put effort in to be better and get a head start into the xpac.

go do warfronts, emissaries, world quests, mythic 0's, LFR, normal raid or higher (Tuesdays are great for getting carried in heroic. just make a group and lead. raiders love blasting content so they have raid stacks for raid time). craft-able gear, anything. this game literally free blasts you with gear left and right and warforge/titanforges to boot. this is why ilvl doesn't matter to people. you could be a casual doing almost nothing and hit 375+ in this current content.

could be a greeter at Walmart for 40 years, doesn't mean you know store operations. go out and change that gear

[Vintersol]

it took me 3 days to hit 360 ilvl on an alt, 5 days to get over 370. this game throws you free loot left and right. if your main is only 342 you arent really doing content, why would people take you?

I just hit 120 4 days ago. I have done every single thing i can do without a guild. I just want to progress via m+ and i don't expect to get carried by some people so a simple +2 should be doable. Gear is and was always a bad indicator how someone plays out. I see astronomical shitlords gameplaywise with 370+ that can't handle simple things. If your new character can't progress through content thats fit your itemlevel, then it's bad design per default. I haven't had these problems in legion btw.

[Deleted]

it took me 3 days to hit 360 ilvl on an alt, 5 days to get over 370. this game throws you free loot left and right. if your main is only 342 you arent really doing content, why would people take you? the other issue is low keys arent really done anymore unless you are super low geared. people want speed and efficiency, none of those you get out of a "doable" group. you put time in to make things easier and quicker, right? week one 342-350 was about average. yeah M0's were cleared by groups rocking 315, 320... but they got there because they put effort in to be better and get a head start into the xpac.

go do warfronts, emissaries, world quests, mythic 0's, LFR, normal raid or higher (Tuesdays are great for getting carried in heroic. just make a group and lead. raiders love blasting content so they have raid stacks for raid time). craft-able gear, anything. this game literally free blasts you with gear left and right and warforge/titanforges to boot. this is why ilvl doesn't matter to people. you could be a casual doing almost nothing and hit 375+ in this current content.

could be a greeter at Walmart for 40 years, doesn't mean you know store operations. go out and change that gear

While i don't really disagree about the free loot, i do think your attitude is exactly what is wrong with the game, not everyone grinds stuff like that or is knowledgeable about it. But content that drops 340 ilvl should not require 360+ gear to get in to, heck it should require lower gear, it is not like you are farming +2 for anything, and if you are that high you just do higher keys anyways.

The title of this post fits you excellently.

[steelmaggot]

then make your own group and stop complaining about rejection? time is money. people that put in the time dont want to carry or cater to the lazy

[beeftotem]

I just hit 120 4 days ago. I have done every single thing i can do without a guild. I just want to progress via m+ and i don't expect to get carried by some people so a simple +2 should be doable. Gear is and was always a bad indicator how someone plays out. I see astronomical shitlords gameplaywise with 370+ that can't handle simple things. If your new character can't progress through content thats fit your itemlevel, then it's bad design per default. I haven't had these problems in legion btw.

Thats the problem, and this is why raider.io exists. Your ilvl no longer indicate your progress. In vanilla through to mopish you could look at a gear score and see that someone has done the appropriate thigs to get that ilvl. Any one who is pissed at raider.io but like the warforge/titanforge system are ridiculous.

[steristumpie]

so first off, I guess I am part of that toxic behavior.

Awesome dude. First step is in admitting you’re the problem. Now that you realize it, you can work on fixing yourself up.
Good luck on your journey and thank you for your efforts in making WoW a less toxic hobby for everyone else!

[Frolk]

Make/Find friends, stop pugging, 90% of these problems fixed

[Deleted]

While i don't really disagree about the free loot, i do think your attitude is exactly what is wrong with the game, not everyone grinds stuff like that or is knowledgeable about it. But content that drops 340 ilvl should not require 360+ gear to get in to, heck it should require lower gear, it is not like you are farming +2 for anything, and if you are that high you just do higher keys anyways.

Quite silly to demand that people should invite 340- player over 360+ player for their pug.

[Stockers]

Lot of it is blizzard fault. They made the classes so unbalanced that it promotes FOTM specs for mythic+.

Currently our raid leader who quite likes M+, with 3 "mains" Rogue, DH Tank and DPS and Druid Boomie, with talk of now leveling his DK Tank. What... 3 months into an expansion people shouldn't feel obliged to have geared alts depending on what affixes a dungeon has to be effective/competitive.

[Archmage Alodi]

From what I've seen, those pushing really high keys are less likely to use raider.io scores the wrong way, but it still does happen. However, people using raider.io for mid-to-low range keys, especially keys below the +4 range, are likely using it incorrectly. Everyone craves having that singular metric that they can look at and know everything and anything they would want to know about someone/something, and some people treat raider.io scores as such a thing. Yes, the score is a metric, but it's a pretty useless metric without supporting information that most people don't even bother to check.

Honestly, I have a bigger issue with the raider.io add-on not showing your linked main's score to your alts below a certain score unless you give them money, as it does hinder those that target specific dungeons for specific items versus pushing all dungeons that may not have loot you want (plus I'm not exactly sure that's allowed under the Blizz add-on ToS). Might as well give the player base more information versus less without making people donate on Patreon.

Hopefully someone's going to make a better addon when they add m+ progression to armory.

[Kralljin]

One of the things why i never liked M+: Class Balance is not there where it needs to be for that and M+ magnifies any balance issue tenfold because you only have 5 slots max, on top of that only one Healer / Tank.

Even without double checking, i guess the class / spec representation for any 3v3 tournament is better (meaning more varied) than for MDI.

[Druitz]

People are sad... They require 1k score for +10. It doesn't mater than someone is doing weekly +10 runs and he got 5x +10 runs on raider.io. Score is everything.

Now imagine you got 3 chars where you do weekly +10. Good luck no-lifing boring pve for 1k score on all 3 chars

[kamuimac]

Wait a sec checking raider.io

dude im 382 and its a m4 atal, im just bored

mate i had this week 1 moron complaining about mythic 0 comp (why have you taken shaman) even though everybody was 360 + -_- kicked that moron instantly and then he started to rage in whipers -_-

people are going full retard mode this expansion

[steelmaggot]

People are sad... They require 1k score for +10. It doesn't mater than someone is doing weekly +10 runs and he got 5x +10 runs on raider.io. Score is everything.

Now imagine you got 3 chars where you do weekly +10. Good luck no-lifing boring pve for 1k score on all 3 chars

so you did a +10 of [insert dungeon name]? congrats.

we are running [insert dungeon name different than above] and are looking for people who know boss/trash mechanics (and dear lord, weekly affix interactions) and you have no history of experience.

are you saying that finding an experienced applicant over someone unskilled in the "field" is silly and unfair?


go outside and find a non entry job with 0 skills. come back and lets talk. it is very much like the same thing. you are a liability, but you want it to be equal grounds because you do not want to become experienced.


not all m+ are the same. mobs in different dungeons have 1-shot mechanics, avoidable mechanics, dispellable mechanics. same with bosses. do you know affix interactions with these mobs/bosses? or in general? probably not.


iLvL is easily inflated thanks to LFR, M0, and world quests warforging/titanforging. its a false number of experience. people want a way to screen success and experience. Raider.io provides that. the addon alone just has a score, real players go beyond a score and highest completed for the week, we look at how many runs you have done.... your actual "experience" not something you can pay a group for 1 runthru and think you passed the score test.

until people realize its a gauging tool when no other exists..... they will continue to complain


I wanted to add an edit here:
when people run 10+ to time, sometimes its for score, sometimes its for a higher different key. most of the time its for gear. your mistake that caused the timer to run out just cost X chance at X extra loot. so that 30-60min of time you wasted because you wanted your weekly run done just cost someone potential loot too. its not always about you and your shortcomings.

[Nights]

Im not mythic raider, more of casual. Cleared hc, and now we are trying 3rd boss on mythic. Tell me please from my point of view why should i invite someone with less gear/lower score instead of someone with higher score or ilv? I mean this dont have anything to do with beeing elitist, i just dont have time to run multiple times same dung to find optimal route, so if someone does it for me and put vid on yt, or if i can see how top players decide to do it whats wrong with that? If u wonna built origami figure of elephant i bet you are not just randomly play with paper, you are going to look for info how other ppl did it, and learn from them. If i have 4 ppl pre made we are missing one dps, ofc i will take someone with higher ilv and score then same class even just lower, or if there is multiple classes choice ofc i will go for one that suit better comp or affixes, i mean whats wrong with that? Are you guys saying ppl who put more efort to get higher score and gear should be forced to carry ppl whoo didnt care about score or ilv cus this is how it shoudl be?

[Marrilaife]

M+ has inevitably terrible class balance (that's a good thing because they moved away a bit from class homogenization),

Spoken like a true fotm roller.

I think it's time Blizzard starts putting labels on specs instead of "tank, damage, healer" they put "arena spec, rbg spec, m+ spec, raid spec, good for nothing garbage". So maybe no one will get this weird idea they can pick a class and spec "they like" and play it in some content.

For example currently you could sort tanks like this:
DK, DH - m+
Monk - raid
other 3 - pls forget it

Why are they even in the game I wonder.

before I start a key I link my desired and expected route using Method Dungeon Tools and if you don't have it, im honestly not expecting much from you as I expect you are the same guy that creates or joins a "chill" or "completion" or "dont be shit" group. low standards because you know its all the effort you want to put in: the key is your chore, and you just want it done.

Tbh I can understand people want "pro" groups in higher keys, but what kind of "pro" is gonna queue for some low crap like Underrot +5 etc.? Seeing descriptions like "checking r.io" or "pushing" on some laughably low key makes me never bother queuing for these groups, no one joins low keys except undergeared alts or "boost me" duos with big ilvl and experience disparity between the 2.

This week I joined a few low keys (4 to 6) on some alts to do the weekly for the 370 cache cherry picking the least elitist descriptions I could find from "don't leave if we wipe" to "welcome to the best fail group ever", and funnily only 1 group was a deplete and only because healer was clueless and kept standing in shit (and he wasn't even the group leader or his friend, just a pug). So what exactly is the difference between "noob group" and "checking r.io" on +5? Probably nothing except the second one is gonna rage and blame more.

And on most big realms you get no score from anything below 10 unless you run it on a reset day so that guy who ran tons of +5s and that guy who never stepped into m+ look exactly the same on r.io, a blank slate.

On +10 I agree, we need better ways to discern between 2 types of players "I wanna my weekly and I don't care" and people who wanna go for higher keys than that and are just upgrading their key so ofc they need to do it in time. I seriously think the community would benefit more from lumping all the "weekly chest casuals" together, they don't care about timer, loot from dungeon end or r.io score, they only want the weekly.

The really annoying part are leaders who try to make an impression they're making a "pro group" but they aren't pro at all and just want to be boosted. For example saying "1.2k+ score" and he has 900 himself. Or people making group named "Atal'dazar +10 for weekly" then sit in group finder for 15 mins straight declining everyone because they need to compose the pro-est group ever for the second easiest dungeon in bfa.

One of the reasons I caved in and installed the addon was to see these "fake pros".

[Lucifer Morningstar]

People keep complaining about raider.io

Fact is that MOST of the time the guy who committed to raising his score to 1k+ for ur casual timed +10 is MOST of the time going to do better than a person with 300-400-500-600 score who has not committed to raising his score.

I don't usually take non fotm classes (ele shammy/ warrs / ret palas..etc) in my runs, but the occasional 1000-1300 score guy makes me change my mind and take him.
If he can raise his score that high with a non fotm class respects to him and I want him.

Been enjoying MOST of my runs so far. Ofcourse you still get the regular guy who boosted his way to 1k score by buying specific dungeons via gold on Wednesday/Thursday to boost his score, but MOST of my runs were successful because of raider.io

[Lilija]

Had a Moonkin rage at me for pulling a mob that's not needed . Apparently pulling mobs that are straight on the way to the boss is a bad idea and im a bad player for not doing the exact same pulls as the world first 19 underrot.

Had two people leave a group because I invited a warrior dps over a DH for a Siege 10. In their eyes DPS Warriors are unviable garbage and I should always invite Havocs over them.

Never mind playing well and handling dungeon mechanics properly, M+ is all about emulating the pulls of world first players to the T and stacking FOTM specs.

The increasingly worse community is sucking the joy out of M+.

Except it's no different than it was in Classic. Have you tried pugging as a moonkin in Classic or TBC? I did. Stopped pretty fast. The problem is complex and is rooted in human psychology. It's all about the perception of success/failure. Anyway, while it sucks to have all those issues, it is still objectively easier to overcome them than it was in the past as you still have access to so many players that eventually you can find some group that will work for you. And the sooner you are able to find a more less stable group of people to play with the better. World of pugs is a vile one and has always been. The only time when it was okeish was during Wrath where 5man content was hardly any challenge. Challenge + pugs = toxicity.