The problem is raiding

[crono14]

But really, only Blizzard knows the reasons players are quitting.

In all fairness, even Blizzard probably doesn't know this anymore. There is no survey/questionnaire when unsubbing anymore(I don't know when it was removed), and the most they could do is try and guess as to why people are leaving based on that number of people.

Sure they might be sending out surveys to people through e-mail right now, but that's if those people are truthful or even want to fill them out. Even then, this survey I think is only 1-2 weeks old. I hope it brings them to a clearer picture and even get some great feedback from the people they choose to send them to. I don't think they are being sent to the playerbase at large or know how they are selecting who gets them, I don't know anyone who has gotten one.

[Relapses]

In all fairness, even Blizzard probably doesn't know this anymore. There is no survey/questionnaire when unsubbing anymore(I don't know when it was removed), and the most they could to is try and guess as to why people are leaving. Sure they might be sending out surveys to people through e-mail right now, but that's if those people are truthful or even want to fill them out. Even then, this survey I think is only 1-2 weeks old.

(A bit of a forward here: I'm a manager in the retention department for a large cable company so this is something I see on a day-to-day basis.)

For a subscriber based business model, one of the key factors for success is understanding churn. That is, what is driving new customers vs. what is driving other customers from leaving. The biggest problem with arguments being made about the reasons players are leaving WoW is that they often completely ignore another equally important factor of the equation: How many new players the game is gaining. For people arguing against certain changes they disagree with, it's almost unfathomable to them that the game is still somehow generating new players at all.

Now, I'll concede that new player generation for a game like WoW is likely restricted to a pool of players who've played WoW at some point in the past... but the reality of the situation is far more complex than making broad statements like, "{x} is the reason the game is failing." And despite my cynicism of the current development team, I'm scant to imply that a company with as many resources as Blizzard doesn't understand at some level the reasons driving attrition in their game. I'd even go so far to say that a lot of controversial changes made recently (such as the prevalence of lootboxes) are the direct result of them applying information they've gathered from players in these situations.

[crono14]

(A bit of a forward here: I'm a manager in the retention department for a large cable company so this is something I see on a day-to-day basis.)

For a subscriber based business model, one of the key factors for success is understanding churn. That is, what is driving new customers vs. what is driving other customers from leaving. The biggest problem with arguments being made about the reasons players are leaving WoW is that they often completely ignore another equally important factor of the equation: How many new players the game is gaining. For people arguing against certain changes they disagree with, it's almost unfathomable to them that the game is still somehow generating new players at all.

Now, I'll concede that new player generation for a game like WoW is likely restricted to a pool of players who've played WoW at some point in the past... but the reality of the situation is far more complex than making broad statements like, "{x} is the reason the game is failing." And despite my cynicism of the current development team, I'm scant to imply that a company with as many resources as Blizzard doesn't understand at some level the reasons driving attrition in their game. I'd even go so far to say that a lot of controversial changes made recently (such as the prevalence of lootboxes) are the direct result of them applying information they've gathered from players in these situations.

Oh definitely, I think they do have a number of reasons for why people are leaving. If you look over the screenshots in that survey, they list quite a lot of the general complaints people have with BFA as options able to be selected. They clearly understand what players are not liking in the game. Johnny might leave because of the GCD changes. Janet might leave because or Azerite gear. Joey might leave on philosophical differences with the game, and Jared is leaving because of real life stuff.


Lore admitted I believe something to the effect of their communication with players has more or less been shit, and they should have been having conversations during Beta and not now. Hopefully these surveys are a first step in a larger plan to listen to player feedback.

[Beerbill Society]

Raiding was in the game since Classic, how could it possible have been a new thing by the time of Wrath.

Naxx was the easiest raid to begin with, most bosses had simple mechanics and did not required attunement. It gave opportunity for many player to start raiding.

I remember my guild was PvP focused and they never had done any PvE content prior and they got to progress through Naxx, Ulduar up until Lich King 25 and later heroic, we managed to get the rusted proto drake while Ulduar content was relevant and it was quite challenging.

Wrath had a nice way to make raiding accessible for all.

[Lane]

WoW is, in essence, about its raids. Nearly all of the game's major story elements are told through raids and they've been a key part of the game since its inception. I can understand there are players who may want the game to adapt to "different playstyles," but at what point should developers ignore a crucial aspect of the game's DNA to appease a few outliers who want the game to be something it isn't? Raids aren't going away and the real solution here is for players who feel like raiding should go away (or "repurposed," or diminished, or...whatever you want to call it) to find a new game if they feel like Blizzard isn't catering enough to them.

It didn't start out that way. WoW used to be about the world of Warcraft. Raids were something EQ had that I'm assuming Alex Afrasiabi wanted to add. I don't recall MC or Onyxia having much of any meaningful lore attached. When they did start adding in major lore characters I suppose it seemed only appropriate to have them as raid bosses to emphasize their power/importance and it's just been a running theme since. I've never gotten the impression this was how WoW was conceptualized.

Also, people only logging in during raid nights isn't anything new. Raids are something WoW apparently does comparatively well, but beyond that the game doesn't offer much else so people supplement with other games. Anyone who doesn't raid there's little incentive to keep playing once you hit max level, which I suspect is why the game keeps seeing significant boosts in sales/subscribers at the beginning of expansions. Clearly the interest is there, it's the retention that's lacking and that is a content issue.

It's not catering either, it's diversifying.

[roboscorcher]

I quit BfA before Uldir even came out. Part of the reason is that Azerite Armor is unrewarding, part is that I no longer have time to raid in a coordinated guild. My Legion guild fell apart, and I can't dedicate certain nights to raiding anymore. Now, my only non-PUG option to raid is LFR, and it's not nearly as fun as guild raiding. The raid is cut into sections, bosses fall over after 5 minutes, people quit after 1 wipe, and there's no coordination.

All that said, raids deserve to be the best source of gear. They are the grand finale to WoW's story arcs. The stakes are high, the mechanics are tough.

I'm not sure what the solution is for players like me. LFR is too easy, and there's no group interaction. PUGs are too demanding for players new to the instance. Guild raids require too much commitment and lead to burnout. I'd much rather launch HotS or Overwatch, with their quick matchmaking and gametimes.

[Berndorf]

So the fact that Blizzard is bleeding subs is as apparent as the sky being blue? Nice hyperbole.



Nope, and this is a commonly used logical fallacy. You know why we don't know? Because Blizzard doesn't tell us. And you want to know something else? Even if they DID tell us the subscriber numbers, they'd mean absolutely fucking nothing since we don't know why people are quitting the game. (See below, re: attrition.)

We never have and we never will.



Here we can agree. But the degree to which Blizzard has lost subscribers in BfA remains unknown.



Man, you used the same logical fallacy twice within two sentences. Does that constitute bonus points?

"Not overly well received by anyone's standards" is, yet again, a completely subjective statement. You do not get to speak on behalf of "everybody," even if there are plenty of people on this forum who agree with your sentiment. These forums do not constitute a majority opinion (in fact, it's quite the opposite).

And finally,



Congratulations, you've broadly defined the term attrition. Without knowing the reasons why WoW experiences attrition, however, it's impossible to make any arguments about it. Blaming the problem on raiding is just one of any number of batshit crazy arguments players try to attribute attrition towards. But really, only Blizzard knows the reasons players are quitting. Until Blizzard shares that information with us (Spoiler: They won't) it seems rather pointless to assign reason behind things we can't possibly know.

You are putting your own standards on all of these terms you wish to argue with me about. Whether or not you want to characterize wow as currently bleedings subs which I didn't actually say is your own opinion. What I used was an estimate based on the sub gain/loss graphs of the previous expansions. If you think bfa based on everything you've experienced in game or on the internet is the expansion that is going to turn that trend then that's fine. We're all just here giving our own opinions. Maybe you think what I and others are saying in this thread lacks enough reasoning behind it. That's fine. The world keeps turning. I don't expect everyone to just automatically agree with anything i say on a message board. My overall opinion is still that putting a huge amount of dev time into raids will only keep subs moving downwards. I think and would quite frankly like to see other things to do as end game content other than dungeons and/or raids and I think it could possibly keep the game healthier in the long run if Blliz could do it reasonably well. The culture has changed in gaming. Wow is slowly moving towards it but somewhat half heartedly in how they are going about it I would say. Its ok to disagree with me on this. I assure you my feelings won't be hurt.

[Deleted]

why not ? imagine for example G'huun being open world boss with craaaaazy amount of health and 1000-2000 people atacking him at the same time and fight taking up to like 1 hour or few hours. wouldnt this be total mayhem and cool thing to do ? (ondasta with 4-5 raid teams at the same time atacking him was extremly fun to do after it was released and before they nerfed the route from graveyard)

as long as it wouldnt crash the server but hey we live in 2018 so why not use modern technology for encounters.

It was not fun. It was the most chaotic thing ever:

1)You had zero control over the outcome. Because who can control 4-5 raids? And people are talking about 2000 people trying to kill a boss. Is this a joke?
2)Randomness of people pullin.
3)Ah yes - the instant corpseruns.

All of the best.

- - - Updated - - -

I quit BfA before Uldir even came out. Part of the reason is that Azerite Armor is unrewarding, part is that I no longer have time to raid in a coordinated guild. My Legion guild fell apart, and I can't dedicate certain nights to raiding anymore. Now, my only non-PUG option to raid is LFR, and it's not nearly as fun as guild raiding. The raid is cut into sections, bosses fall over after 5 minutes, people quit after 1 wipe, and there's no coordination.

All that said, raids deserve to be the best source of gear. They are the grand finale to WoW's story arcs. The stakes are high, the mechanics are tough.

I'm not sure what the solution is for players like me. LFR is too easy, and there's no group interaction. PUGs are too demanding for players new to the instance. Guild raids require too much commitment and lead to burnout. I'd much rather launch HotS or Overwatch, with their quick matchmaking and gametimes.

If a person quits, even before the Raid is out, this says more about a flakey personality.

Im glad you are out. Please stay away or your next post might be "i got so tried of swimming ingame, that I stopped playing the game".

[chooi]

TBH, I'd say if you're going to be so ultra gung ho on the MM part of the MMO, you shouldn't be constantly advocating for small, enclosed, instanced, and away from the massive part of the game. The world should matter most with that attitude.

The fact that the world in this MMO is worthless and a glorified lobby/gate to the "real" content (Which is non-massive, small and instanced), is, frankly, terrible.

If we were playing an open-world sandbox MMO that already exist on the market, sure. But WoW was always about funneling the players to instanced PvE/PvP large scale group content. So why do people want to change the core essence of the game which made it so strong and best in its genre?

BTW, I'm not against having a meaningful world to explore, quest, farm herbs/ores and grind mobs for gear, professions, reputations to progress your character with clear goals. We did that a lot in every expansion, especially Classic and TBC. The open world was the fundament for later dungeons/raids/BGs. Mandatory Daily/World Quests, less and less meaningful professions and similar current issues are just not the type of content I'm looking for in that regard, though. That downhill started in TBC 2.4 and got worse with every following expansion and it's not because of raiding.

It's not an 'either or' situation. We can have a meaningful open world and keep raiding as the pinnacle of WoW PvE.

- - - Updated - - -

the problem is the demographic of the game has shifted, most people playing this game are now older ,in their 30s at least, most people that age just don’t have the time to commit to raiding how it’s meant to be played ie in an organized guild with clear time commitments, blizzard has done things to address that, the LFG tool helps do the raids on a more casual level and mythic plus is fantastic as can be organized in a tighter group giving more time flexibility, unfortunately the issue will not go away as the younger demographic with the time to play hardcore are simply playing other games

This is bullshit and has nothing to do with 'hardcore'. I raid once a week, currently at 4/8M and progressing on Fetid Devourer. I play a M10 dungeon per week. That's it. 6-8 hours per week /played is an absolute max because what interesting content is left in this great expansion anyway?

Am I a hardcore player just because I raid Mythic? No, not at all. I actually play a lot less than so called 'casuals' that run around all day and waste their time doing nothing but trivial world quests, heroic dungeons, LFR and leveling the 50th alt. If you enjoy that, fine, have fun. It doesn't hurt me. Unless you demand the destruction of raiding and try to force me playing your shitty boring faceroll content. That's the point where we need to have a talk. Because you are trying to force your preferred style of gameplay down my throat and that feels already quite sore from the shit we got since WotLK to BFA from players like the OP. It has to stop.

But saying that raiding is for hardcore players only can't be further from the truth because raiding has never been less demanding as it is now. Probably only WoD was a 'better' raid-log expansion.

- - - Updated - - -

I don't think this is going to be the case, dude.

Vanilla WoW succeeded, because the general MMO market was only played by nerds who enjoyed games where relations and work mattered.

Now, the MMO market is completely different. I am such a nerd myself. But I doubt I can go back to farming the same old raid for 2 years only to get the last important upgrades for my raid mates.

Bingo! Hit the nail on the head. The problem is that heaps of players that actually don't want to play MMORPGs came in droves to WoW because it was so popular and over time made demands to ruin the core essence of the game to cater their playstyle.

This is kind of what happened to WoW in a funny way (leave out the sexist parts if you prefer):

[Deleted]

Apparently the XP required to level was reduced yet another time. This obviously is going to make things much worse in the long run. But hey, apparently if idiots complain about RNG in a game where RNG was the baseline of loot acquisition since day 1 - the solution is to make leveling 25%+ less relevant! LOGIC!
Since every moron with an attention span of a goldfish is at an ever increased speed being funneled towards the typically easy and unrewarding RAIDFINDER experience the thing thats comming up next is the "not enough content" Whining. Strap in boys, here we go!

[Tekkommo]

Not really useful if you dont have arguments, right?

Oh, here is a statistic about how many killed Illidan:

http://web.archive.org/web/200708200....com:80/world/



0,21 % of 1593935 raiders in total, which is 3.347 players.

In TBC, 13 million players played. 12% of them played raids. Everyone else played dungeons or leveled up chars.

Just pointing out that your using stats from August 2007, BT had only been out for 3 months.

Sunwell came out in March 2008, would be far more meaningful to get numbers from that date.

[kamuimac]

I quit BfA before Uldir even came out. Part of the reason is that Azerite Armor is unrewarding, part is that I no longer have time to raid in a coordinated guild. My Legion guild fell apart, and I can't dedicate certain nights to raiding anymore. Now, my only non-PUG option to raid is LFR, and it's not nearly as fun as guild raiding. The raid is cut into sections, bosses fall over after 5 minutes, people quit after 1 wipe, and there's no coordination.

All that said, raids deserve to be the best source of gear. They are the grand finale to WoW's story arcs. The stakes are high, the mechanics are tough.

I'm not sure what the solution is for players like me. LFR is too easy, and there's no group interaction. PUGs are too demanding for players new to the instance. Guild raids require too much commitment and lead to burnout. I'd much rather launch HotS or Overwatch, with their quick matchmaking and gametimes.

how the holy f.... was it any different in any other expansions then BfA ?

hint it was exackly the same

the only difference is YOU

if you didnt have time to play in any of previous expansions they wouldnt be fun for you either

because wow for a long time has 0 endgame content outside of raiding.

BfA didnt change a thing. you changed

and you blame blizzard for this

- - - Updated - - -

If we were playing an open-world sandbox MMO that already exist on the market, sure. But WoW was always about funneling the players to instanced PvE/PvP large scale group content. So why do people want to change the core essence of the game which made it so strong and best in its genre?

BTW, I'm not against having a meaningful world to explore, quest, farm herbs/ores and grind mobs for gear, professions, reputations to progress your character with clear goals. We did that a lot in every expansion, especially Classic and TBC. The open world was the fundament for later dungeons/raids/BGs. Mandatory Daily/World Quests, less and less meaningful professions and similar current issues are just not the type of content I'm looking for in that regard, though. That downhill started in TBC 2.4 and got worse with every following expansion and it's not because of raiding.

It's not an 'either or' situation. We can have a meaningful open world and keep raiding as the pinnacle of WoW PvE.

- - - Updated - - -



This is bullshit and has nothing to do with 'hardcore'. I raid once a week, currently at 4/8M and progressing on Fetid Devourer. I play a M10 dungeon per week. That's it. 6-8 hours per week /played is an absolute max because what interesting content is left in this great expansion anyway?

Am I a hardcore player just because I raid Mythic? No, not at all. I actually play a lot less than so called 'casuals' that run around all day and waste their time doing nothing but trivial world quests, heroic dungeons, LFR and leveling the 50th alt. If you enjoy that, fine, have fun. It doesn't hurt me. Unless you demand the destruction of raiding and try to force me playing your shitty boring faceroll content. That's the point where we need to have a talk. Because you are trying to force your preferred style of gameplay down my throat and that feels already quite sore from the shit we got since WotLK to BFA from players like the OP. It has to stop.

But saying that raiding is for hardcore players only can't be further from the truth because raiding has never been less demanding as it is now. Probably only WoD was a 'better' raid-log expansion.

- - - Updated - - -



Bingo! Hit the nail on the head. The problem is that heaps of players that actually don't want to play MMORPGs came in droves to WoW because it was so popular and over time made demands to ruin the core essence of the game to cater their playstyle.

This is kind of what happened to WoW in a funny way (leave out the sexist parts if you prefer):

the irony when in fact in 2004 WoW was nothing else but "dudebro " and "alphas" compare to any other mmorpg on market being aimed to the most casual part of mmorpger's back then

[Sansnom]

Guy who created LFR admitting what a dumpsterfire LFR is and how it erodes the foundation of what raiding should be.

If you have a better solution to LFR to encourage and get more people into raids, I would love to hear. This is a solution for everyone who currently does not raids for their own personal reasons, not you and your buddies.

For all we know, if LFR does not exist, Blizzard may have to make other decisions that would be more unpleasant for people like you.

And why do people care so much how others play the game. You feel epic when you defeat the raids. They may not. Why does that bother you?

[araistlinx]

Raiding was in the game since Classic, how could it possible have been a new thing by the time of Wrath.

Because 90% of the population never raided in Vanilla. Even in BC most people I knew were not raiding, except dabbling in Kara.

[roboscorcher]

how the holy f.... was it any different in any other expansions then BfA ?

hint it was exackly the same

the only difference is YOU

if you didnt have time to play in any of previous expansions they wouldnt be fun for you either

because wow for a long time has 0 endgame content outside of raiding.

BfA didnt change a thing. you changed

and you blame blizzard for this

Lol I'm not blaming anyone. I'm just saying that, as players age, the grindy nature of the game conflicts with the added responsibilities of adulthood. Being in a raiding guild is a big commitment, a difficult one to make once kids are being raised.

You can blame this issue on me all you want. Fact is, the general WOW population is aging. I think that many players are in the same boat as me, and there are not enough new players coming in to pull those longer raid hours. They're all playing Fortnite. So, while it's no one's fault, the general raiding community is becoming smaller and more casual (in time played, not skill).

[chooi]

the irony when in fact in 2004 WoW was nothing else but "dudebro " and "alphas" compare to any other mmorpg on market being aimed to the most casual part of mmorpger's back then

You just cannot compare the overall (PC) playerbase and most (AAA) game companies from 2004 to today. The game back then was still made from gamers for gamers. Gaming was transcending towards mainstream but most of us were still gamer nerds, especially MMORPG players, and that was their main target audience. Games now are made only and purely for maximum profit and it shows. You must be willfully ignorant to not see that. One of the original WoW devs, Mark Kern, told us in a tweet that some of the figureheads of Blizzard were planning to cancel WoW development because it was a huge monetary risk but they were able to convince them otherwise, thankfully.

[orca2425]

well im glad they have other things we can do to get geared. becaue of all the elit people out there kicking people sitting them out , that is the only way they can progress.. even when your in a guild// ..so thank you blizzard.

[chooi]

Lol I'm not blaming anyone. I'm just saying that, as players age, the grindy nature of the game conflicts with the added responsibilities of adulthood. Being in a raiding guild is a big commitment, a difficult one to make once kids are being raised.

You can blame this issue on me all you want. Fact is, the general WOW population is aging. I think that many players are in the same boat as me, and there are not enough new players coming in to pull those longer raid hours. They're all playing Fortnite. So, while it's no one's fault, the general raiding community is becoming smaller and more casual (in time played, not skill).

There really is no grind at all in BFA after the initial 2-3 weeks of leveling up, doing WQ/Expeditions for reputations until Revered & AP for ~25 neck (easy with catch-up mechanism) and gearing up to be raid-ready (super easy thanks to Warfronts, Mythic(+) Dungeons, LFR/Normal raid, Crafting & BoEs). This is a one-time investment that doesn't even take much time if you play efficiently and with friends/guild.

Now, I raid only on Sundays for 4h and we are currently at 5/8M. I play one M10 dungeon per week for the chest. That's really it. 5-6h of gaming at highest difficulty is a joke when we compare that to older expansions. If you can't or don't want to put in at least that little effort, then yeah, sorry for you. BFA has many problems but grinding or massive time requirement is really not one of it.

I can only laugh at people who think they have to grind through WQs and M+ dungeons and are stuck at 2/8M or even worse. Nope, they are just clueless and bad players.

[Soon-TM]

Apparently the XP required to level was reduced yet another time. This obviously is going to make things much worse in the long run. But hey, apparently if idiots complain about RNG in a game where RNG was the baseline of loot acquisition since day 1 - the solution is to make leveling 25%+ less relevant! LOGIC!
Since every moron with an attention span of a goldfish is at an ever increased speed being funneled towards the typically easy and unrewarding RAIDFINDER experience the thing thats comming up next is the "not enough content" Whining. Strap in boys, here we go!

The problem is not RNG itself, but rather the huge RNGfiesta that started in Legion. It's like salt in a dish; a small quantity (YMMV) enhances the dish's flavour, too much ruins it.

[Demithio]

The problem is WoW lost what make it great to start with long ago, yes.