M+ increasingly toxic and elitest

[Devilyaki]

They should remove time time limit from them, or make them like the mop ones and give transmog gear for time runs lol

[neescher]

so the best way to get high score is to do alot of m+?

Best way is to do a high key in time, for each dungeon.

I dont do that many anymore but those I do goes smoothly.

That's fine, and really that's enough, especially if you have a guild, or a few friends to go m+ with. But you shouldn't expect to get many PUG invites, because the other people have no idea of knowing that you always have smooth runs.

[Rammus]

I'm 6/8 with AOTC and get declined on a 383 MW, with mostly all 85+ rankings. My io score is 690 because I only do 1 10 a week in a random pug with usually meh players, who on weeks like this are carried by me healing them. oddly enough, even my skill isn't good enough, because my 690 isn't 1000.

So you are a good healer with not much experience in high m+, when I see you on my list I'll see that you have cleared 6/8M, I'll see your ilvl and I'll see your raider.io score thus I am able to make a well rounded decision to invite you or not. Believe it or not there are usually more than one healers in the queue with 380+ ilvl and 1k+ score and 2-8M kills. So I will chose them over you as I should.

Not getting invited for a key doesn't necessarily mean that ppl think you can't get the job done, but why would they risk it over someone with more experience(higher r.io score)? I don't get how/why you feel entitled to an invite.

People whining about not being able to join public keys because of low raider.io score, should just make their own groups.

[boz0]

Yeah, raider.io is just a symptom.

Also I think part of this has to do with the dearth of tanks, lowering the total number of runs and inflating DPS applications for PUG runs. Of course I'm taking the ridiculously geared player over some rando commando. Of course I'm taking the Havoc DH over any other melee. Why would I NOT, when I have twenty people popping up instantly the second I go on group finder?

And we're back at square one, we have a dearth of tanks because pugging M+ can be a toxic experience, and tanking is a stressful role for the average player.

I do the occasional +10 with my 372 BDK. I don't really care whether we do it within the timer - it's obviously better to time it, but as long as we don't spend 90 minutes inside, it's not a problem for me. What makes me hesitate each time I consider a PUG is the amount of toxicity I might encounter (maybe once every 3 or 4 runs, I'd say).

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The only thing I don't like about M+ is that they are too easy. A +10 is too easy to give the loot that it gives.
Also they aren't really hard at all, just tedium and a bit of strategy. Once you understand those things it's just gogogogo because of timers.

I don't find M+ particularly easier or more difficult than H Uldir.

A +10 AD or FH is probably on par with Heroic Taloc or Mother.
A +10 Shrine feels on par with Heroic Zul for instance.

[VincentWolf]

Increased difficulty always comes with toxic community. People who think that they're better than others because they can clear something overtuned/do it faster than others. That's why I always hated heroic raids -- they bring worst in people, and that's why TBC is to this day best xpansion ever released.

[Deleted]

>tfw I couldn't get into high keys two weeks ago
>farmed lower keys
>made pals to run through higher keys
>can do pretty much any key right now
Sure is fun to be so entitled to get your ass carried without anything to back up your "I'm good guise xDDD" or "look, I did 2/8 M, I'm good guise xDDD" claims.
What r.io did, it added a decent metric to make progress/ability to perform in 10+ keys. I still don't get it - if one is so frustrated about how unfair the system is - why would you continuously apply to such groups and, even if you weren't, why'd you take offense in people wanting to form THEIR groups the way THEY want. WITHOUT including your poor ass in the content you have no experience to show for.
Bear in mind, two weeks ago I hated r.io. Too bad it only took me a bit of invested time and some goddamned balls to get going, which some, obviously, lack.

[iddqd]

The option from raider.io is golden that you can make an account and link your main to your alts. So when you try to find a group for AD +4, it helps a lot that your alt hunter has only ilvl340 but i can see that your main has a score of 500+ so i can assume that you as a player are decent enough to finish this dungeon without problems.

But: you have to invest the 5 minutes here to get yourself an account - which most players are too lazy for

[Great Destiny Man]

Increased difficulty always comes with toxic community. People who think that they're better than others because they can clear something overtuned/do it faster than others. That's why I always hated heroic raids -- they bring worst in people, and that's why TBC is to this day best xpansion ever released.

You hate HC raids for the fact that it produced players who "think they're better for others clearing something overtuned" but praise an expansion where the most difficult raids were not able to be cleared by literally 99% of the playerbase?

[tacoloco]

Toxic and elitism are just buzzwords

Those are only buzzwords to people who need to deflect attention away from their toxic behavior. "I'm not toxic ... YOU'RE toxic". SMH

[crusadernero]

Best way is to do a high key in time, for each dungeon.

That's fine, and really that's enough, especially if you have a guild, or a few friends to go m+ with. But you shouldn't expect to get many PUG invites, because the other people have no idea of knowing that you always have smooth runs.

So you can suck and get a high score? if I just farm out m+ dungeons while playing bad I will get good scores and the addon tells everyone im good? I have done several m+ with ppl boasting the m+ score while they stand in all kinds of stuff.

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The option from raider.io is golden that you can make an account and link your main to your alts. So when you try to find a group for AD +4, it helps a lot that your alt hunter has only ilvl340 but i can see that your main has a score of 500+ so i can assume that you as a player are decent enough to finish this dungeon without problems.

But: you have to invest the 5 minutes here to get yourself an account - which most players are too lazy for

So people need to make accounts outside of the game in order to play the game?

The one and only thing to take from this is to say fuck it and make your own groups. Nothing more, nothing less.

[Deleted]

it took me 3 days to hit 360 ilvl on an alt, 5 days to get over 370. this game throws you free loot left and right. if your main is only 342 you arent really doing content, why would people take you? the other issue is low keys arent really done anymore unless you are super low geared. people want speed and efficiency, none of those you get out of a "doable" group. you put time in to make things easier and quicker, right? week one 342-350 was about average. yeah M0's were cleared by groups rocking 315, 320... but they got there because they put effort in to be better and get a head start into the xpac.

go do warfronts, emissaries, world quests, mythic 0's, LFR, normal raid or higher (Tuesdays are great for getting carried in heroic. just make a group and lead. raiders love blasting content so they have raid stacks for raid time). craft-able gear, anything. this game literally free blasts you with gear left and right and warforge/titanforges to boot. this is why ilvl doesn't matter to people. you could be a casual doing almost nothing and hit 375+ in this current content.

could be a greeter at Walmart for 40 years, doesn't mean you know store operations. go out and change that gear

I have no idea how lucky the average person seems to be, but damn. My alt is 367 and I've done full Heroic runs for a month and dozens of +10-12 keystones with my mythic geared guildies. 375 for a casual player with no friends seems utterly impossible to me.

[Tryxtira]

So I just wanted to add some to this. I've been playing WoW for a long time, but M+ is very new to me, so I'm not great. I always run with friends, almost never alone, for the pure reason that higher keys (for me higher keys is like 10-13) require some organisation to be done in time.

When we invite randoms for a 12 we look at 1. ilvl and 2. what's your highest clear in that dungeon. That's it. That makes sense though, doesn't it?

Secondly, I want to adress the people saying "I'm 350 ilvl and have 300 Raider.io score and I never get invited to stuff."

I'm the guy to blame. If I run keys on my alts, even low keys, like less than 7, and we have both a healer and a tank in the group, I get maybe 20 requests within 30 seconds. I usually run them at primetime, but still. In that situation, why would I want to invite the lowest geared person?

If you're trying to get into a +2 key for example on 342 as one guy in this group you have 2 options. The first one: start your own group with your own key and be the good guy and invite people. The second one: whisper the leader. That's it. That's not the fault of raider.io or of the way M+ is built. That's progression. That's what you need to do to progress.

I get so tired by so many people feeling like the game should just give them everything. "I got to level 120 4 days ago and I haven't gotten invited to a +10 yet." You shouldn't. You should have to work for it. That's what's fun with WoW, the same way we've worked to easily do 10s, but trying, fixing pulls, learning our classes strengths and weaknesses. Progress.

[Volitar]

I wouldn't bother rio much, if people wouldn't act like elitists in perfectly doable low key content. My rogue has ilvl 342 and i don't get a single invite for +2.

That's because its not simply a yes/no whether you are invited its should I inv this 342 Rogue or 370 Rogue. Of course you are going to inv the 370 Rogue because it has a better chance to make the run easier.

[kamuimac]

So I just wanted to add some to this. I've been playing WoW for a long time, but M+ is very new to me, so I'm not great. I always run with friends, almost never alone, for the pure reason that higher keys (for me higher keys is like 10-13) require some organisation to be done in time.

When we invite randoms for a 12 we look at 1. ilvl and 2. what's your highest clear in that dungeon. That's it. That makes sense though, doesn't it?

Secondly, I want to adress the people saying "I'm 350 ilvl and have 300 Raider.io score and I never get invited to stuff."

I'm the guy to blame. If I run keys on my alts, even low keys, like less than 7, and we have both a healer and a tank in the group, I get maybe 20 requests within 30 seconds. I usually run them at primetime, but still. In that situation, why would I want to invite the lowest geared person?

If you're trying to get into a +2 key for example on 342 as one guy in this group you have 2 options. The first one: start your own group with your own key and be the good guy and invite people. The second one: whisper the leader. That's it. That's not the fault of raider.io or of the way M+ is built. That's progression. That's what you need to do to progress.

I get so tired by so many people feeling like the game should just give them everything. "I got to level 120 4 days ago and I haven't gotten invited to a +10 yet." You shouldn't. You should have to work for it. That's what's fun with WoW, the same way we've worked to easily do 10s, but trying, fixing pulls, learning our classes strengths and weaknesses. Progress.

you are not really to blame.

its game system failing thaat is to blame.

its only natural that people who are 340 aim at keys like +3 or +4

its only natural that people with 350 aim at keys like 7

thats because this is the content that has upgrades for them

what is not natural is tuning of those keys because they are way to hard for rewards they are giving out and no - normal people dont do them for end of week reward - they do it for the gear that they are dropping.

thats why mythic + is failing hard this expansion and is only appealing to mythic raiders.

[iddqd]

So you can suck and get a high score? if I just farm out m+ dungeons while playing bad I will get good scores and the addon tells everyone im good? I have done several m+ with ppl boasting the m+ score while they stand in all kinds of stuff.

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So people need to make accounts outside of the game in order to play the game?

The one and only thing to take from this is to say fuck it and make your own groups. Nothing more, nothing less.

You cant always make your own groups...

[Quaade]

The thing is that with Seasons Blizzard gives the impresion that M+ levels matter.

People also like to succeed, no one likes to fail.

Combining the two you get that succeeding at M+ matters.

The only upside of this development is that it clearly shows that some classes are underperforming majorly due to their lack of utility.

Higher DPS and no little utility means little compared to high dps and high utility.

Taking an Arms warrior is less desirable than taking a Frost Mage even though an Arms warrior have better AoE DPS. That DPS is unable to compete with a massive situational Haste boost, a CC, a root if the shit really hits the fan, passive slows, DPS that makes them immune to PBAoA and a kiting ability bar none.

Likewise the utility of a Blood DK is also higher than that of any other tank due to DG.

Because M+ now matters for some reason this difference in classes are clearly visible and it's up to Blizzard if they want those Classes to remain second tier or buff their utility.

[iddqd]

The thing is that with Seasons Blizzard gives the impresion that M+ levels matter.

People also like to succeed, no one likes to fail.

Combining the two you get that succeeding at M+ matters.

The only upside of this development is that it clearly shows that some classes are underperforming majorly due to their lack of utility.

Higher DPS and no little utility means little compared to high dps and high utility.

Taking an Arms warrior is less desirable than taking a Frost Mage even though an Arms warrior have better AoE DPS. That DPS is unable to compete with a massive situational Haste boost, a CC, a root if the shit really hits the fan, passive slows, DPS that makes them immune to PBAoA and a kiting ability bar none.

Likewise the utility of a Blood DK is also higher than that of any other tank due to DG.

Because M+ now matters for some reason this difference in classes are clearly visible and it's up to Blizzard if they want those Classes to remain second tier or buff their utility.

The "problem" here is that this added utility doesnt matter much if you run something <10. But still, people will still mostly invite the "viable" classes.

[RuneeBH]

I feel like the more Blizz has pushed M+ to be this hardcore E-Sportsy things, everyone and their mother thinks they're a top world M+ player from watching Twitch - and it's just ruined M+ as a fun thing to do w/ friends.

Plus the curve of gear rewards makes no sense. The only keys I get invited to are ones that I can't get an upgrade from unless I get a war/titanforge. So I'm literally running a 20-40 min dungeon for a chance at a piece, then hoping that piece war/titanforges, then hoping it's in a slot I can use it in. Why would I do that?

[crono14]

I don't think the M+ environment is going to get any better either without some big changes. If it rolls this way the whole expansion with only the seasonal affix changing, it's going to be a valid complaint the entire expansion.

[HuxNeva]

You cant always make your own groups...

Even if you delete your keystone you get a new one the first M0 you run