M+ increasingly toxic and elitest

[Psidum]

Someone at blizzard watched the MDI, saw teams doing these massive trash pulls and decided this is something that needs to be addressed not realizing the amount of players doing these types of pulls are minuscule. The result is trash that is often over engineered for all but highly coordinated and experienced groups in the context of getting keys done in time. Add Infested to the mix and the pressure on groups in particular tanks and healers is much higher than last expac.

BFA players that run keys with high frequency are keeping to their friends list and rarely pug if ever. Any good tank is being spammed for keys the moment they log on so they are not pugging. The very few good tanks that do pug have 50+ people applying for 4 or less spots meaning if you don't overgear the dungeon and have that fat raider.io score your out of luck. The pug groups where less experienced players would have learned the inns and outs of a dungeon or at the very least be carried through are not happening any more. People are actively avoiding half the keys because their groups never succeed and the experience is miserable meaning scuffed raider.io scores.

The problem isn't raider io, it is blizzards approach to M+ in BFA. They screwed up big time. If I was coming in to the game now and trying to pug M+ I would walk away frustrated which is what most people seam to be doing hence the toxicity.

[Flarelaine]

There is so much competition for those precious DPS slots in a group, that no one gets free invites. (Unless you're a Rogue and you're applying for TD)

I prefer to take a rogue just about anywhere. Shrouding all the trash in Freehold up to the first boss is priceless.

[kevincuomo]

Raider IO might not be perfect but it's better than just guessing if someone is good or not or if they really have completed a key at the level you are trying to achieve. The sad truth is a vast majority of people who play this game are utter garbage and bringing someone who is bad into a M+ key is failure waiting to happen and no one wants to carry a baddy.

If you are tanking a M+ you should know what pulls to pull and or have it mapped out with the mythic dungeon tool you can download instantly and easily. It's the tanks job to set the pace of the run, if you can't be bothered with downloading an addon or doing your homework then dont tank.

[Purpleisbetter]

One solutions is, for keystone less than the cap for weekly chest, is LFG tool to hide / disable the API responsible for addons like r.io to work

At the same time, since keystone level filter will be added in the next builds, the lfg tools should prevent the party leader to put up a queue for a keystone higher than the one he has in the bag.
I.e: if i have a FH +11 the lfg tools forces me to que only a FH 11 and not,say, a FH 16.

This way, one cannot cheese the system of the blind picking.

Also requires addons to ne prevented from reading another player's m+ progression.

R.io issue is fixed but then no one should ever whine about quality of m+ runs. It's one way or the other.

P.s.: i know you can still cheese some by asking "ehy gimme a screenshot of ur m+ progression". But for a 10, it is hardly worth the hassle.

[Aurora]

The system isn't working well at the moment as its divided motivation to play it between those who want loot and those who care about times which causes inevitable clashes. The difference was always there

The simple solution is to either remove the timer or remove the loot. I can't really see the system continuing as it is at present since very few are having a good time with it outside of those running premades with their friends.
Personally I'd like to see the loot removed and something like a single fixed timer-less weekly +10 dungeon with loot after each boss and fulfilling the weekly cache at the end.

[iddqd]

Even if you delete your keystone you get a new one the first M0 you run

Often enough, my keystone is too high or a dungeon that i really do not want to run - and the detour with deleting and running M0 for a new key is too much effort - registering at raider.io is way faster

Besides, the addon not only helps me with getting into groups but also with rating other people when i open the group myself.

[unbound]

Had a Moonkin rage at me for pulling a mob that's not needed . Apparently pulling mobs that are straight on the way to the boss is a bad idea and im a bad player for not doing the exact same pulls as the world first 19 underrot.

Had two people leave a group because I invited a warrior dps over a DH for a Siege 10. In their eyes DPS Warriors are unviable garbage and I should always invite Havocs over them.

Never mind playing well and handling dungeon mechanics properly, M+ is all about emulating the pulls of world first players to the T and stacking FOTM specs.

The increasingly worse community is sucking the joy out of M+.

Entirely predictable situation. This is timers were a great idea for the short term, but a really bad idea for the long term.

[deadman1]

I don't find M+ particularly easier or more difficult than H Uldir.

A +10 AD or FH is probably on par with Heroic Taloc or Mother.
A +10 Shrine feels on par with Heroic Zul for instance.

Sure but it gives 380 loot out of the weekly chest, or 385 azerite. And the normal gear has a chance to forge.
You should be comparing it to mythic uldir with that ilvl.

[Onikaroshi]

The system isn't working well at the moment as its divided motivation to play it between those who want loot and those who care about times which causes inevitable clashes. The difference was always there

The simple solution is to either remove the timer or remove the loot. I can't really see the system continuing as it is at present since very few are having a good time with it outside of those running premades with their friends.

Timers about the only way, remove loot and it becomes useless, might as well not have invested time in it. But that's not to say removing the timer would happen either, because then they would need to do more then just "increase the damage every keystone" and have to add actual thought out mechanics that are balanceable and work, unlike things like fortified/tyranical and some of the other ones that can't be balanced against each other.

[ReD-EyeD]

I prefer to take a rogue just about anywhere. Shrouding all the trash in Freehold up to the first boss is priceless.

Or you can just drink a 15gold invis potion. Not denying that rogues are insanely useful though.

[TrickNasty]

Could just get friends and do it with them.

[qikink]

I think what most people on the "raider.io is toxic" side of the fence fail to distinguish is the difference between "No reason *not* to invite me" and "Good reason to invite me." The DPS role is so overrepresented, people can fill their groups with overgeared, fotm classes who've completed much more difficult content. If they *can* do that, why wouldn't they? I'm not going to tell you it's fair, but it's econ 101. When supply (in this case, the supply of slots in key groups) is far below demand (of DPS players) prices go up, and people can demand unreasonable things and still succeed.

Again, who can blame them? You can read story after story on these boards of people who say "Screw Raider.io! I'm taking anyone who applies with a reasonable ilvl!" and their groups - almost uniformly - go terribly! Sure, it looks like folks just "want to get carried" but if you could get carried, why wouldn't you?

[klaps_05]

The DPS role is so overrepresented

People who play a DPS and pug really dont get this.

Got an alt tank with 0 r.io. Made 3 groups this week - +2 siege, +3 waycrest, +5 motherlode. Invited a random healer. Didnt put any comment or required ilevel or voice.

Within 2min, there were nearly 40 ppl in queue between 280 and 370 ilevel. Yes, 360-370 ilevel people queing for +2s and +3s. Especially the mid-360s are really a LOT.

[Marrilaife]

People who play a DPS and pug really dont get this.

Got an alt tank with 0 r.io. Made 3 groups this week - +2 siege, +3 waycrest, +5 motherlode. Invited a random healer. Didnt put any comment or required ilevel or voice.

Within 2min, there were nearly 40 ppl in queue between 280 and 370 ilevel. Yes, 360-370 ilevel people queing for +2s and +3s. Especially the mid-360s are really a LOT.

This week is the 4x mythic dungeon for the free 370 item quest.

However, maybe thanks to that there's more groups going? I queued for 4-6 level of keystones as a ~355-ish Hunter that is not linked to my main's raider.io score beause I didn't register it, and still got enough invites to complete the weekly. Got some declines too, and wasn't aiming high... but are Hunters a meta class now? Maybe, I think Gingi made them more popular. But most top players play rogue / dh / mage / boomie / lock.

Tbh I had a shadow priest in one of these groups, so I don't really think every group picks a "meta" comp for +5. And good, because there's really no need.

Also it's fairly easy affix with only bursting at that level. So maybe it's all just lucky coincidence.

[Enkrypt]

People are toxic in all parts of the game. W-PvP, Arenas, RBGs, Raiding, etc, etc. It's not exclusive or even new for toxicity to present itself in a competitive part of the game.

I take a great amount of care in who I pick to bring to push keys. If my goal is push, you better believe I'm checking your experience. Now even experienced people make mistakes, including myself. It's a game after all. Anyone who rages unreasonably (toxic) I usually don't even bother with. I'll admit to being "elitist" in the sense that I expect results from people at my level or higher, if that makes me so. I've never felt bad about that. But players who handle themselves with immaturity and name-calling have no place in my groups. I'll tank my own key by removing such a person. Mistakes are meant to be learned from, and attacking other players harshly instead of teaching is the worst reaction to have. Frankly, I don't tolerate it even at high levels of play.

[mauserr]

This week is the 4x mythic dungeon for the free 370 item quest.

However, maybe thanks to that there's more groups going? I queued for 4-6 level of keystones as a ~355-ish Hunter that is not linked to my main's raider.io score beause I didn't register it, and still got enough invites to complete the weekly. Got some declines too, and wasn't aiming high... but are Hunters a meta class now? Maybe, I think Gingi made them more popular. But most top players play rogue / dh / mage / boomie / lock.

Tbh I had a shadow priest in one of these groups, so I don't really think every group picks a "meta" comp for +5. And good, because there's really no need.

Also it's fairly easy affix with only bursting at that level. So maybe it's all just lucky coincidence.

I'm genuinely baffled when I see people writing such low + lvls as 4,5,6 and reading the struggles people have with completion or getting invited and whatnot. This sounds so ridiculously alien to me. Is the average playerbase really that terrible, to struggle with such low level keys?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying you all suck major dick at the game or anything, but this is really odd. I remember pugging shit in legion after I stepped down from 25h+ of raiding per week and my experience was entirely different, with 10++ level keys being mostly smooth and painless and I wasn't exactly queueing with mythic level players either.

[Deleted]

The toxicity and elitist crap is all around this expansion in m+, thats why they are dead and broken beyond repair imo. Add on top idiotic class design decisions such as giving specific classes certain tools (buffs, auras) and you have the picture. Went today 3 dungeons +11 all of them, 2 leavers with first wipe and the last leaver with only one death. Community is also a big part why this game is becoming worse and worse. Bad dungeons, bad people and bad game is recipe for disaster. Beware WoW is not like other MMOs, it will not die when it reaches 0 pop, but when it reaches the jerks > normal people ratio, and this is close.

[Khallid]

you are not really to blame.

its game system failing thaat is to blame.

its only natural that people who are 340 aim at keys like +3 or +4

its only natural that people with 350 aim at keys like 7

thats because this is the content that has upgrades for them

what is not natural is tuning of those keys because they are way to hard for rewards they are giving out and no - normal people dont do them for end of week reward - they do it for the gear that they are dropping.

thats why mythic + is failing hard this expansion and is only appealing to mythic raiders.

It's not even appealing to mythic raiders. Sure we can do +10 keys for the best weekly reward within our guilds, so we skip all the horrors of pugging, but I only want the weekly chest and I want my dungeons to be as easy as possible. Everything in between is a chore. BfA dungeons are harder than Legion's, so it's not as relaxing to run the weekly cap. A +10 in BfA feels like a +20 from the end of Legion.

[dcc626]

It's not even appealing to mythic raiders. Sure we can do +10 keys for the best weekly reward within our guilds, so we skip all the horrors of pugging, but I only want the weekly chest and I want my dungeons to be as easy as possible. Everything in between is a chore. BfA dungeons are harder than Legion's, so it's not as relaxing to run the weekly cap. A +10 in BfA feels like a +20 from the end of Legion.

if you feel like a 10 now feels like a 20 at the end of legion its probably a problem with you, not the game.

[Spotnick]

They should come up with a better system than time limits. Always hated those eversince old school nintendo games.

It's there already.. you get loot if you make the timer or not.. the time limit is just there to upgrade your key.