Sylvanas x Burning of Teldrassil vs. Arthas x Culling of Stratholme - Morally Grayer?

[Beloren]

Sylvanas' actions were more grave, and more severe, i mean Teldrassil was a world tree and housed a city, lands and several settlements from base to crown.

But at the same time, Sylvnaas is not the sort of pure evil that Arthas was, she is doing this for the hrode.

I would support her as lich queen. Morally grey.

[KaPe]

Sylvanas' actions were more grave, and more severe, i mean Teldrassil was a world tree and housed a city, lands and several settlements from base to crown.

But at the same time, Sylvnaas is not the sort of pure evil that Arthas was, she is doing this for the hrode.

I would support her as lich queen. Morally grey.

Arthas the human was "morally gray" at Stratholme. Burning thousands of civilians alive is not only not "morally gray", it also doesn't benefit the Horde in any way. The only thing it accomplishes is making sure the Night Elves will now fight to the last, because clearly, surrendering will only get them murdered. And considering that Jaina almost flooded the entire Orgrimmar at some point, pushing Alliance heroes too far can be suicidal.

Well, ignoring the fact that none of that stuff would actually happen in game, but hey. Lorewise, the Alliance is always holding back, but there should be a breaking point.

[shadowmatrix]

Wasn't Arthas already a death Knight by then summoning the scourge when attacking quel'thalas?

So really if you want that comparison, sylvanas is as much a souless evil b**ch who's the enemy of the living.

If the Blood Elf heritage quest is correct then yes since in the scenario he used a massive path of frost to get the scourge to the island. Regardless he already had Frostmourne so he had already lost his humanity for the most part.

[Nerovar]

This is a really faulty and stupid comparison. Like many posters have mentioned before, the burning of Teldrassil is more comparable to the invasion of Quel'Thalas. Hell, Blizzard even draws these very same parallels in the warbringer cinematic. The roles have switched as Sylvanas has become the very thing that created her and which she sought to destroy, placing Delaryn in the same spot she was in when Arthas invaded Quel'Thalas (she even resurrects her). It doesn't really get any more obvious.

This begs the question whether there's some ulterior motive. Arthas invaded Quel'Thalas to raise Kel'Thuzad as a mighty lich. What could she accomplish with the mass murder of night elves and the burning of a world tree? I wouldn't be surprised to find out that she struck a deal with Azshara and her master. After all Night Elves surely pose the biggest threat to the Naga and it's also heavily implied that the Naga have a raging hate boner for the Night Elves.
Perhaps Sylvanas even helps in raising Nazjatar with newfound powers from Xal'atath. Surely, N'zoth is more than capable to "save" her people just like he did with Azshara's. All her other plans regarding the salvation of her people failed after all and she seems to be running out of options. This would of course mean that she's one of the main villains and will probably die in which case I think Delaryn could replace her as the leader of the Forsaken.

Think about it. N'zoth created the Emerald Nightmare. N'zoth already tried to burn a world tree during Cataclysm.

[Simca]

I always disliked the Stratholme thing being portrayed as 'evil' in the narrative.

There was literally no other choice. The only other choice was to wait for them all to turn (and if you play the mission, every single civilian turns, there are no exceptions) then kill them afterwards, simultaneously losing huge amounts of your own troops.

If you fail the mission, you see what happens. Mal'Ganis hits Arthas' base with an incredibly large army, crushing it and killing him.

Burning of Teldrassil was the opposite. There was no downside to burning Stratholme (every person was effectively already dead). There was no upside to burning Teldrassil (it accelerated a war).

[Varitok]

Depends how good you are at mental gymnastics and how much you love Sylvannas.

[Cyram]

IMO burning the tree was a mistake, the Alliance wouldn't have been able to move against any Horde targets because the majority of Kaldorei race would be hostages to the Horde. By burning it's she created thousands of matrys and a war where the enemy will go down fighting to the last man for they know what will happen if they surrender.

Actually the point was to force the Alliance into submission by killing Malfurion - Varok didn't finish the job so she found another pillar of pride and what the Elves thought was worth fighting for - so she took that instead.
Malfurion living and Tyrande saying "see ya suckers, we'll try to rescue you after I tend my beloved" was what led Sylvanas to burn the tree.

[vertigo12]

This is a really faulty and stupid comparison. Like many posters have mentioned before, the burning of Teldrassil is more comparable to the invasion of Quel'Thalas. Hell, Blizzard even draws these very same parallels in the warbringer cinematic. The roles have switched as Sylvanas has become the very thing that created her and which she sought to destroy, placing Delaryn in the same spot she was in when Arthas invaded Quel'Thalas (she even resurrects her). It doesn't really get any more obvious.

This begs the question whether there's some ulterior motive. Arthas invaded Quel'Thalas to raise Kel'Thuzad as a mighty lich. What could she accomplish with the mass murder of night elves and the burning of a world tree? I wouldn't be surprised to find out that she struck a deal with Azshara and her master. After all Night Elves surely pose the biggest threat to the Naga and it's also heavily implied that the Naga have a raging hate boner for the Night Elves.
Perhaps Sylvanas even helps in raising Nazjatar with newfound powers from Xal'atath. Surely, N'zoth is more than capable to "save" her people just like he did with Azshara's. All her other plans regarding the salvation of her people failed after all and she seems to be running out of options. This would of course mean that she's one of the main villains and will probably die in which case I think Delaryn could replace her as the leader of the Forsaken.

Think about it. N'zoth created the Emerald Nightmare. N'zoth already tried to burn a world tree during Cataclysm.

Well two of the major goodie two shoed NPCs just betrayed their people and put Azeroth in jeopardy: Archdruid Staghelm and Benedictus.

It seems everybody will one day bow down to the old gods as the hour of twilight culminates and it reaches it's full heights once more.

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I always disliked the Stratholme thing being portrayed as 'evil' in the narrative.

There was literally no other choice. The only other choice was to wait for them all to turn (and if you play the mission, every single civilian turns, there are no exceptions) then kill them afterwards, simultaneously losing huge amounts of your own troops.

If you fail the mission, you see what happens. Mal'Ganis hits Arthas' base with an incredibly large army, crushing it and killing him.

Burning of Teldrassil was the opposite. There was no downside to burning Stratholme (every person was effectively already dead). There was no upside to burning Teldrassil (it accelerated a war).

If back in those days Arthas action wasn't meant to be seen by players as morally upright, WotLK would turn up differently for players. He wouldn't have been that much "evil" from our own eyes.

[Aucald]

I always disliked the Stratholme thing being portrayed as 'evil' in the narrative.

There was literally no other choice. The only other choice was to wait for them all to turn (and if you play the mission, every single civilian turns, there are no exceptions) then kill them afterwards, simultaneously losing huge amounts of your own troops.

If you fail the mission, you see what happens. Mal'Ganis hits Arthas' base with an incredibly large army, crushing it and killing him.

Burning of Teldrassil was the opposite. There was no downside to burning Stratholme (every person was effectively already dead). There was no upside to burning Teldrassil (it accelerated a war).

Personally, for me, it wasn't the content of the action (the actual burning of Stratholme) that felt evil - it was the way in which Arthas went about it, and the treatment of his allies leading up to it. I agree that it was probably better for everyone that Stratholme be purged, both to spare the townspeople the torment of undead servitude to the Lich King as well as to spare the soldiers who would be lost if they had to fight the resulting undead army. Like with Uther, Arthas didn't explain himself - he simply commanded this act that the elder Paladin found egregious, he didn't plead his case or weigh alternatives (which there honestly weren't any), when Uther refused he rebuked him and called him a traitor. He also took to the task with a very un-Paladin relish, showing quite strongly that he cared less about the plight of the townsfolk than he did vengeance upon Mal'ganis - which is probably the reason why the Light abandoned him in the process, it sensed that what Arthas was doing wasn't motivated by pity or grief, but rather anger and growing hatred directed toward Mal'ganis himself.

[vertigo12]

Personally, for me, it wasn't the content of the action (the actual burning of Stratholme) that felt evil - it was the way in which Arthas went about it, and the treatment of his allies leading up to it. I agree that it was probably better for everyone that Stratholme be purged, both to spare the townspeople the torment of undead servitude to the Lich King as well as to spare the soldiers who would be lost if they had to fight the resulting undead army. Like with Uther, Arthas didn't explain himself - he simply commanded this act that the elder Paladin found egregious, he didn't plead his case or weigh alternatives (which there honestly weren't any), when Uther refused he rebuked him and called him a traitor. He also took to the task with a very un-Paladin relish, showing quite strongly that he cared less about the plight of the townsfolk than he did vengeance upon Mal'ganis - which is probably the reason why the Light abandoned him in the process, it sensed that what Arthas was doing wasn't motivated by pity or grief, but rather anger and growing hatred directed toward Mal'ganis himself.

Actually I'd like to draw another comparison now that you mentioned the emotions at play before,during and after the two events.

I forgot to include in my primary post about the reason why I drew parallels from both events:
- Death of innocent civilian and lives lost along with "Burning" theme
- One fell swoop but led to a slow death: One delivery o sacks of grainery containing the plague and one napalm hurled from a catapult at the command of Sylvanas.
- Was remorse, guilt, and conscience at play for both?
Both were not guilty about their actions. Sylvanas pretty much knew what's at stake after she commanded to fire Teldrassil. Arthas showed no mercy,felt no compassion and even prayed to the holy light after slowly turning everyone down. He see it fit to happen.
- A likelihood of the involvement of a Nathrezim. In Arthas scenario, it was clear a Dreadlord was directly involved and was the primary mastermind of the whole fiasco. In Sylvanas, it seems Malganis bro Varimathras knew Sylvanas ascension to the Warchief's throne as she quote several lines which pretty much talk about BfA related events which came or will come to pass. He even quoted the Alliance throne will be afflicted yet again by betrayal. The holy places burn.

[MikeBogina]

A city with no actually military isnt a military target. Burning a city full of civilians hoping to kill those civilians and nobody else and calling it "not wrong at all" is mindblowing.
If Varian butchered the elves in Quelthalas because the orcs attacted his forces in Northrend when whey were fighting the Scourge, can that be described as doing no wrong at all? After all that orc commander got away with it scoot free expect some angry comments like Genn.

They literally just sent their "military" south to engage with Saurfang's army... And yeah, destroying the city of an enemy is common practice in war.

Varian could have tried, but he wouldn't have been as justified since the Alliance and Horde were engaging earlier in the continent, unlike Legion where the Alliance and Horde are literally allies and Genn still leads an assault on the Horde in an attempt to kill their leader... Oh and Varian also before this "orc commander" attempted to kill Thrall in Undercity

Lol, Sylvanas planned to destroy Stormwind and raise its population as the undead long long before Stormheim. Syvlanas wanted war. And in " A good war", she knew Teldrassil will burn one day even before she fought Malfurion.

Citation needed.
Also are you saying Genn had an early copy of "A Good War"? Cause he didn't, he attacked the leader of the allied faction during a World Ending Invasion for his personal revenge. This is noted by Anduin and saurfang.

And the Blood elves might one day go back to fel addiction so lets kill their entire race then, the orcs might again be enslaved by some evil force, might as well wipe out their entire race, nothting wrong with that, right? Seriously the lenghts some people will go...

lol you talk about lengths and then proceed to go on the most idiotic one of all.
I said the tree, which was corrupted in it's conception, is always going to be a threat. Nothing about the race, which with your logic would make the Night Elves the most detestable race of them all. None of the current Night Elves are the source of the issue with the Void, just like none of the current Blood Elves have any connection to the Legion.

[ausoin]

They literally just sent their "military" south to engage with Saurfang's army... And yeah, destroying the city of an enemy is common practice in war.

The city itself didn't have any military at that point it was only civilians. hence it wasn't a valid enemy military target. Since it was already in the Horde hands and neutralized.

And yeah, destroying the city of an enemy is common practice in war.

We are not just talking about a city, but the entire land around it, all the villages and other towns. A region that housed the bulk of one race. I don't remember destroying a place which has 99% of one's races as a common practice. Instead, you know that being genocide.

Varian could have tried, but he wouldn't have been as justified since the Alliance and Horde were engaging earlier in the continent, unlike Legion where the Alliance and Horde are literally allies and Genn still leads an assault on the Horde in an attempt to kill their leader... Oh and Varian also before this "orc commander" attempted to kill Thrall in Undercity

Yeah that was a bad example, but the logic that the bulk of the NE race dying is "nothing wrong at all" because a person from another race attacked the warchief doesnt make sense.

Citation needed.
Also are you saying Genn had an early copy of "A Good War"? Cause he didn't, he attacked the leader of the allied faction during a World Ending Invasion for his personal revenge. This is noted by Anduin and saurfang.

Yeah so? You are saying that if Genn didn't attack this war wouldn't have happened, which is false given what Sylvanas says about her ultimate plans.

lol, you talk about lengths and then proceed to go on the most idiotic one of all.
I said the tree, which was corrupted in its conception, is always going to be a threat. Nothing about the race, which with your logic would make the Night Elves the most detestable race of them all. None of the current Night Elves are the source of the issue with the Void, just like none of the current Blood Elves have any connection to the Legion.

It was cleansed and blessed by the aspect of nature itself, saying it "might" be corrupted again to justify mass murder is laughable. The entire world of Azeroth was once completely void infested, so if somebody destroys the world because it might happen again would he be completely justified?

[Frostone]

Sylvanas burning the tree is more like Genn destroying latern in Legion. Both thing - symbols and promises of eternal life. Where Genn destroyed hope for resurrection for already dead ppl (new deaths would not be needed in that case). While Sylvanas destroyed hope by killing NE and showing that Elune won't save them. It's all about maturing process here in my opinion. Soon Alliance nations will understand, that fighting for hope (Anduin style) is useless. He didn't save NE and doesn't help them now in Darkshore. Question is how big fracture will be. Because we can see both factions and even community is no longer stable.

[KaPe]

Sylvanas burning the tree is more like Genn destroying latern in Legion. Both thing - symbols and promises of eternal life. Where Genn destroyed hope for resurrection for already dead ppl (new deaths would not be needed in that case). While Sylvanas destroyed hope by killing NE and showing that Elune won't save them. It's all about maturing process here in my opinion. Soon Alliance nations will understand, that fighting for hope (Anduin style) is useless. He didn't save NE and doesn't help them now in Darkshore. Question is how big fracture will be. Because we can see both factions and even community is no longer stable.

You do realize that throughout the entirety of WoW, Forsaken referred to their state as a curse? Remember the Sylvanas herself saying "what joy is there is this curse"? Remember what future she saw after she killed herself? One that terrified her so much that she actually started "caring" for the Forsaken, as a way to avoid that fate as long as possible?

Undeath is not "promise of eternal life", but a damning curse. Not only that, but Forsaken are rotting away, thought they can delay that process. They aren't eternal in any way, and their longevity is hardly impressive considering Draenei and Night Elves have lived for millenia without any negative consequences.

These two events are not comparable in any way, unless you do some amazing logical leaps and mental gymnastics. Even biggest fans of Sylvanas and Genn haters would have problems with this interpretation.

[vertigo12]

You do realize that throughout the entirety of WoW, Forsaken referred to their state as a curse? Remember the Sylvanas herself saying "what joy is there is this curse"? Remember what future she saw after she killed herself? One that terrified her so much that she actually started "caring" for the Forsaken, as a way to avoid that fate as long as possible?

Undeath is not "promise of eternal life", but a damning curse. Not only that, but Forsaken are rotting away, thought they can delay that process. They aren't eternal in any way, and their longevity is hardly impressive considering Draenei and Night Elves have lived for millenia without any negative consequences.

These two events are not comparable in any way, unless you do some amazing logical leaps and mental gymnastics. Even biggest fans of Sylvanas and Genn haters would have problems with this interpretation.

Then there is a parallel to Genn's race and Sylvanas. They are both cursed. With regards to the curse waiting for Sylvanas, I believe she wasn't talking about Forsaken alone but the fate of all the living and that is towards, by default Shadowrealm. Ofcourse not unless you are trapped in some Horcrux like soul harvesting weapons or artifact or monsters which collects souls like the one Uuna was trapped in. In the case of demons, then that would be an exception to the rule.

[Lelkowski]

It was cleansed and blessed by the aspect of nature itself, saying it "might" be corrupted again to justify mass murder is laughable. The entire world of Azeroth was once completely void infested, so if somebody destroys the world because it might happen again would he be completely justified?

#SargerasDidNothingWrong

[valis]

This is a really faulty and stupid comparison. Like many posters have mentioned before, the burning of Teldrassil is more comparable to the invasion of Quel'Thalas. Hell, Blizzard even draws these very same parallels in the warbringer cinematic. The roles have switched as Sylvanas has become the very thing that created her and which she sought to destroy, placing Delaryn in the same spot she was in when Arthas invaded Quel'Thalas (she even resurrects her). It doesn't really get any more obvious.

This begs the question whether there's some ulterior motive. Arthas invaded Quel'Thalas to raise Kel'Thuzad as a mighty lich. What could she accomplish with the mass murder of night elves and the burning of a world tree? I wouldn't be surprised to find out that she struck a deal with Azshara and her master. After all Night Elves surely pose the biggest threat to the Naga and it's also heavily implied that the Naga have a raging hate boner for the Night Elves.
Perhaps Sylvanas even helps in raising Nazjatar with newfound powers from Xal'atath. Surely, N'zoth is more than capable to "save" her people just like he did with Azshara's. All her other plans regarding the salvation of her people failed after all and she seems to be running out of options. This would of course mean that she's one of the main villains and will probably die in which case I think Delaryn could replace her as the leader of the Forsaken.

Think about it. N'zoth created the Emerald Nightmare. N'zoth already tried to burn a world tree during Cataclysm.

Yeah but Delaryn and other Nightelfs follow Sylvanas after Resurection out of "Free Will" that's a big breaking Point, or can we confirm "Undead Controll"?
Well could be that they do this story again (yawn) and the "Forsaken 2.0" will arise...
Why she burned the World Tree? Well to "destroy Hope" and it's clearly shown that this was an implusive action, so no ulterior motive (maybe this gets retconned). I don't think she's in liege with N'Zoth, maybe his puppet? Remember Old Gods can influence Undead (or got this retconned?) it takes just more efford.
So the comparison is even more out of context, Arthas had ulterior motives for both Stratholme and Silvermoon, Silvanas had none for Tel'Drasil other than spite.

[vertigo12]

Then there is a parallel to Genn's race and Sylvanas. They are both cursed. With regards to the curse waiting for Sylvanas, I believe she wasn't talking about Forsaken alone but the fate of all the living and that is towards, by default Shadowrealm. Ofcourse not unless you are trapped in some Horcrux like soul harvesting weapons or artifact or monsters which collects souls like the one Uuna was trapped in. In the case of demons, then that would be an exception to the rule.

Everybody has been talking about the coming Darkness.

Arthas: I see only darkness.
Varimathras: It matters not. You are blind to the true darkness closing in on you
Vol'jin: : I have never trusted you. Nor would I have ever imagined... in our darkest time... dat you... would be da one to save us. Da spirits have granted me clarity. A vision... dey whisper a name. Many will not unda'stand. But you must step out of da shadows... and lead. You must be... War...chief...


More to come..

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That is an extremely, extremely poor comparison. The wrath gate also involved invasion of territory, killing and burning things. That doesn't make Ysera suddenly Arthas or Sylvanas. I'm not drawing a parallel between the invasion of Quel'thalas and the Burning of teldrassil. That is literally the exact comparison that is made in warbringers.

I think that flash back was meant for Delaryn so she would understand what she is trying to fight for would all result in futility. So if there was a comparison it was Ranger General Sylvanas of Quel'thalas vs. Delaryn Summermoon of Darnassus.

[Frostone]

You do realize that throughout the entirety of WoW, Forsaken referred to their state as a curse? Remember the Sylvanas herself saying "what joy is there is this curse"? Remember what future she saw after she killed herself? One that terrified her so much that she actually started "caring" for the Forsaken, as a way to avoid that fate as long as possible?

Undeath is not "promise of eternal life", but a damning curse. Not only that, but Forsaken are rotting away, thought they can delay that process. They aren't eternal in any way, and their longevity is hardly impressive considering Draenei and Night Elves have lived for millenia without any negative consequences.

These two events are not comparable in any way, unless you do some amazing logical leaps and mental gymnastics. Even biggest fans of Sylvanas and Genn haters would have problems with this interpretation.

Forsaken are cursed indeed, but first of all it is a next step in the world that has always seen wars, you can have feelings but actions are what make you strong, rotting is not a problem that worth mentioning and with latern it wasn't about delaying, it was about having infinite ressurections even for those who have already died twice - that is why peace is not possible for Horde and Alliance, both sides has taken their hopes. Talking about Elves, they grew Teldrassil in attempt to regain eternal life - but it didn't work, instead it worked as foothold to pray Elune and became soft as hell - just remember NE from WC3 and NE in Legion what happens to them in 8.1 - is return of real warriors. Draenei are not pure as well, in all of their attempts to become strong they failed under pressure of power and only Velen managed to fight because he had hope in Light (which now we can see is controversial as well). Now with Anduin in charge, hope has become his instrument of manipulation for the whole Alliance.
Meanwhile Horde is more than just hope, more material. Why ? You say that they are evil because of this and that. But in reality they just don't fear to do what is required to win. Horde is always step ahead, when something "bad" happenes because of Alliance actions - people always say that Alliance was forced to do that, while Horde did it before on purpose. Greatest example - Kalia Menethil, Alliance has been killing forsaken for years and now they wanted "to become friends with them", even now have experience in raising undead and same thing for raising voidish undead. Also about Anduin who is slowly maturing - he is not just a priest anymore, he is a boy that fought in first rows during Battle for Lordaeron and entered halls with sword covered in blood.

[vertigo12]

Forsaken are cursed indeed, but first of all it is a next step in the world that has always seen wars, you can have feelings but actions are what make you strong, rotting is not a problem that worth mentioning and with latern it wasn't about delaying, it was about having infinite ressurections even for those who have already died twice - that is why peace is not possible for Horde and Alliance, both sides has taken their hopes. Talking about Elves, they grew Teldrassil in attempt to regain eternal life - but it didn't work, instead it worked as foothold to pray Elune and became soft as hell - just remember NE from WC3 and NE in Legion what happens to them in 8.1 - is return of real warriors. Draenei are not pure as well, in all of their attempts to become strong they failed under pressure of power and only Velen managed to fight because he had hope in Light (which now we can see is controversial as well). Now with Anduin in charge, hope has become his instrument of manipulation for the whole Alliance.
Meanwhile Horde is more than just hope, more material. Why ? You say that they are evil because of this and that. But in reality they just don't fear to do what is required to win. Horde is always step ahead, when something "bad" happenes because of Alliance actions - people always say that Alliance was forced to do that, while Horde did it before on purpose. Greatest example - Kalia Menethil, Alliance has been killing forsaken for years and now they wanted "to become friends with them", even now have experience in raising undead and same thing for raising voidish undead. Also about Anduin who is slowly maturing - he is not just a priest anymore, he is a boy that fought in first rows during Battle for Lordaeron and entered halls with sword covered in blood.

Great analogy. To add to that, the latest CGI cinematics between Saurfang and Anduin.

The boy king was aware Saurfang can cull him in one swift blow but didn't. He might now understand what message Saurfang wanted to convey to him.