Has "Lost Honour" Affected Your Respect For Saurfang?

[Super Dickmann]

Technically *all* the Orcs who fought in the First and Second War, those from the formation of the Old Horde on Draenor, are "child-murderers" and former monsters (albeit with a rationale that they were corrupted by demonic influence). Saurfang's not special on that score as an elder veteran of the Old Horde.

That's true, but those orcs are not presented to us as moral actors here to restore some preferred order of things on behalf of the opposing faction. They are not vectors for morals. That's the main difference between a character like Sylvanas and a character like Illidan. They're both evil, vile people who are still interesting to the plot, but the game pretends Illidan's actions are somehow justified and moral and that's why he grates on me.

Saurfang is the same. He is an abhorrent person, largely responsible for where we are now, along with having many faults that Sylvanas lacks - indecision, weakness and hypocrisy. But the narrative wants me to band behind him and support him, whereas it burns Sylvanas in effigy. @M-Ra has the right of it. It's the out of whack morality that makes characters like him and this entire narrative detestable.

[saintminya]

I really don't see how Saurfang not falling to his knees sobbing while Malfurion is knocked out and actually attempting a killing blow would make him a Mary-Sue or Gary-Stu.

It wouldn't. It would just have let him remain as a badass character.

[KrakHed]

Tsk, that's not true. Saurfang is a child murderer and a traitor and he's still failed to endear himself to me, so you know I have higher standards than that.

I'm actually being serious here. People are upset with characters when the story lingers on their personal issues too long. They like the characters when they're smashing shit, giving speeches, and so on.

People who like Garrosh ignore the fact that he was Daddy Issues incarnate. People who like Sylvanas ignore that she's a miserable piece of shit who hasn't killed herself solely because she's being blackmailed with eternal damnation. Both focus on their badass moments.

The interpretations fans have of these characters isn't as a flawed character. As far as they're concerned, they never did anything wrong. Thrall lost support for supposedly being a Mary Sue, but more truly because he was shown as a more flawed character who made a major mistake. Green Jesus wasn't perfect anymore. He was tainted by a series of bad decisions.

[Isilarya]

Nope? He praises himself and his honor all the time, dares to preach to others about morals and others and never face the consequences of what he did. If he would allow the Draenei to put him under trial, I would respect him. Otherwise it is more likely that he is a narcassist who uses his guilt as a mark of honor to prove his moral superiority. Which makes him worse than Sylvanas, who at least accepts that she is not a good person and never will be one again.

So we are talking about the same orcs the draenei described as peaceful until they drank Mannoroths blood. The blood which basically made them mindslaves to the legion? So you are going to charge someone for something they had no action in controlling. By this thought process you need to try Thrall too, and every other orc NPC/Player that isnt Mag'har AU because they ALL stood beside Saurfang during all that shit.

[Aucald]

That's true, but those orcs are not presented to us as moral actors here to restore some preferred order of things on behalf of the opposing faction. They are not vectors for morals. That's the main difference between a character like Sylvanas and a character like Illidan. They're both evil, vile people who are still interesting to the plot, but the game pretends Illidan's actions are somehow justified and moral and that's why he grates on me.

Saurfang is the same. He is an abhorrent person, largely responsible for where we are now, along with having many faults that Sylvanas lacks - indecision, moral weakness and hypocrisy. But the narrative wants me to band behind him and support him, whereas it burns Sylvanas in effigy. @M-Ra has the right of it. It's the out of whack morality that makes characters like him and this entire narrative detestable.

I would argue Eitrigg is - from "Of Blood and Honor" to the current day, he was one of the first exemplars to show Humans that Orcs were not all entirely monstrous (and he is also a veteran and product of the Old Horde of Draenor who participated in the genocide of the Draenei). He doesn't currently have the same spotlight as Saurfang, but he's still high up in the Horde hierarchy, making decisions and calling shots.

As for Sylvanas, I agree she certainly lacks indecision - but she has both hypocrisy and moral weakness covered in spades (probably far worse than Saurfang does).

[KrakHed]

Saurfang is the same. He is an abhorrent person, largely responsible for where we are now

The key difference between him and Sylvanas is that he wants to fix his mistakes, and that he views them as mistakes. The present is as important as the past.

[Gungnir]

I'm actually being serious here. People are upset with characters when the story lingers on their personal issues too long. They like the characters when they're smashing shit, giving speeches, and so on.

People who like Garrosh ignore the fact that he was Daddy Issues incarnate. People who like Sylvanas ignore that she's a miserable piece of shit who hasn't killed herself solely because she's being blackmailed with eternal damnation. Both focus on their badass moments.

The interpretations fans have of these characters isn't as a flawed character. As far as they're concerned, they never did anything wrong. Thrall lost support for supposedly being a Mary Sue, but more truly because he was shown as a more flawed character who made a major mistake. Green Jesus wasn't perfect anymore. He was tainted by a series of bad decisions.

I like Sylvanas BECAUSE she's a miserable piece of shit who's trying desperately to avoid getting eternally damned.

[Wildberry]

People who like Garrosh ignore the fact that he was Daddy Issues incarnate.

Nope, I liked Garrosh more because of that. His Garadar appearances (BC and "Beyond the Dark Portal") were pretty impactful for his character and made his arc much more enjoyable.

Some people might be mad about Saurfang's personal issues, but I (and I assume others) would be willing to overlook this entirely, perhaps even embrace it, if sorting them out didn't involve the Alliance.

[Super Dickmann]

I would argue Eitrigg is - from "Of Blood and Honor" to the current day, he was one of the first exemplars to show Humans that Orcs were not all entirely monstrous (and he is also a veteran and product of the Old Horde of Draenor who participated in the genocide of the Draenei). He doesn't currently have the same spotlight as Saurfang, but he's still high up in the Horde hierarchy, making decisions and calling shots.

Therein lies the rub. Eitrigg is a character ideologically opposed to Sylvanas, who nevertheless did not defect. Instead he stands by his principles and still wages the war all the same. He goes on and on about honor, but instead of whining in a cell or hiding out in a hut while rejecting Horde assistance in favour of the human king, he helps bring in people who share his ideology into the Horde. It will never happen, but a story wherein Saurfang gets a stroke and it's Eitrigg and the Mag'har and even that Kratos orc unseat Sylvanas and continue the war Orgrim-style, would be more preferable, because at least then the change within the Horde would come internally rather than externally and we can at least assume that something was learned from the last time we went through all this.

@KrakHed

That does not dispel his mistakes. No more than unseating Sylvanas will magically make the Horde not complicit in everything that happened up to the point she was unseated, especially if she is unseated because of external intervention, as is the case now by default. "His" Horde was complicit and indeed enabling of allowing this to happen, but the narrative will not explore this for a moment. It will not explore the effect that the Horde's actions have had on the people of the Alliance. It will sweep these things under the rug as it did Jaina and Katherine randomly deciding Daelin was wrong apropo of nothing in a war that validated him. I shit on Saurfang a lot and on Anduin as well, but the defining moment my complete contempt for this entire plotline was cemented dates back to when Genn forgave the Forsaken. It's at that point that any moral narrative it means to go on with is lost, because it's completely one-sided. It's founded on pretending fundamentally incompatible people can live together in love and harmony if only one person were gone and all the history and suffering of people up to this point doesn't matter.

[Zandalarian Paladin]

I believe that you should stand with those who'll help you the most.

Anduin has been a thorough supporter of the old Horde. I dare say that people siding with Sylvanas right now are the real traitors to the old Horde.

[vian]

Cant say I hold any respect for fictional characters.

[Oneirophobia]

he still enjoyed the fuck out of murdering unprepared night elves in Ashenvale before Sylvanas burned the tree, so nope.0

I’m not sure telling your opponents you’re coming is a valid war tactic, but I will agree the war as a whole doesn’t haven’t a compelling reason to exist in the first place.

We’re supposed to believe Sylvanas has maintained a festering grudge against the Alliance for rejecting her attempt to join it back before Vanilla started, but it’s literally never been mentioned before that she has this grudge and we just came from Legion in which Sylvanas saved Varian in a cinematic. Any kind of basic planning for the direction of the story would have made all this make sense.

Now we’re going to Garrosh yet another warchief that couldn’t be given a reason other than “evil” to be at war with the Alliance and Saurfang will likely be warchief.

[Niroshi]

I'm surprised it affected anyone's view on Saurfang since this development was foreshadowed in beta.

[Oneirophobia]

I believe that you should stand with those who'll help you the most.

Anduin has been a thorough supporter of the old Horde. I dare say that people siding with Sylvanas right now are the real traitors to the old Horde.

Right?

“You strive for peace when it suits you, little lion”

What does that even fucking mean, Sylvanas? When has Anduin ever not vied for peace?

[Isilarya]

I like Sylvanas BECAUSE she's a miserable piece of shit who's trying desperately to avoid getting eternally damned.

Which is funny because we all know damn well Anduin wouldnt have ever bothered her if she didnt start this war. Her life expectancy has gone down significantly because of her own actions instead of just chilling wherein she probably would have been able to live forever.

[Wildberry]

I believe that you should stand with those who'll help you the most.

Anduin has been a thorough supporter of the old Horde. I dare say that people siding with Sylvanas right now are the real traitors to the old Horde.

Ladies and gentleman, the average Saurfang supporter. We're not even downplaying Anduin here, we're just justifying it.

[zlygork]

I’m not sure telling your opponents you’re coming is a valid war tactic, but I will agree the war as a whole doesn’t haven’t a compelling reason to exist in the first place.

We’re supposed to believe Sylvanas has maintained a festering grudge against the Alliance for rejecting her attempt to join it back before Vanilla started, but it’s literally never been mentioned before that she has this grudge and we just came from Legion in which Sylvanas saved Varian in a cinematic. Any kind of basic planning for the direction of the story would have made all this make sense.

Now we’re going to Garrosh yet another warchief that couldn’t be given a reason other than “evil” to be at war with the Alliance and Saurfang will likely be warchief.

I was refering specifically to Saurfang very clearly enjoying the murder of night elves in the pre-pre-bfa stories (effigy and whatever.) I totally agree with you though, the faction war itself feels forced since wc3 kind of solved it.

[Combatbutler]

I'm surprised it affected anyone's view on Saurfang since this development was foreshadowed in beta.

Blizz can drastically change their story narrative from different stages in the beta/alpha, the prime example would be Brennadam. So while hints were there regarding that it was no longer solid the moment they released the game with a different interaction.

[Dagoth Ur]

Thrall lost support for supposedly being a Mary Sue, but more truly because he was shown as a more flawed character who made a major mistake. Green Jesus wasn't perfect anymore. He was tainted by a series of bad decisions.

If you're willing to forgive the whole Green Jesus thing, I was always of opinion that Garrosh actually made Thrall's Cata story pretty cool. If you've liked Grom in War3 as I did, the whole "Oh shit, "Grom"'s back, let's make a cool leader out of him" was actually quite reletable and how I initially felt about Garrosh. And then he ended up how he ended up and all that.

[Justpassing]

Positively or negatively; it adds to his character and his arc. You can not like how his / the whole story turns out but this is one of the things when the journey matters, not the end.