Has "Lost Honour" Affected Your Respect For Saurfang?

[Deleted]

Garona, Thalyssra, Baine, Lor'themar, Saurfang are all proeminent figures that has outright disagreed, either now or in 8.1, with Sylvanas. Thalyssra even go as far as saying that she regrets joining the Horde and see too many similar tactics to those of the Legion in it.

[Citation needed] or this is just more exaggerated hyperbolic headcanon that can be instantly disregarded from another Saurfang apologist. Ready when you are...

[fathom81]

I love the fact that he has no problem turning his back on the warchief if he doesnt represent the horde's interests.
He is loyal to the horde, not to the warchief...kinda like a reversed Nazgrim.

[Zulkhan]

I never disliked Saurfang and I don't now. I still like him more than Sylvanas. I can't say I "lost respect" for the character per se, however the last cinematic piece made me despair over the fact that even Saurfang, among other characters before him, have been reduced to someone making Anduin's holy image shining brighter. It definitely looks like a solid step back from the way he was presented at Lordaeron, who despite his issues with Sylvanas he also treated Anduin with contempt and distrust. But now even Saurfang seems to have joined the Manduin's cult.

[Wildberry]

Yes, we all know you'd drink demon blood as long as the warchief told you to. I'm disturbed by the growing percentage that agree with your sentiment though. I get that this is a video game but people are seemingly A OK with turning the horde into the evil faction.

Oh look, Powerogue with another non-argument. What factually incorrect statement of yours will cause you to leave the thread this time?

[Powerogue]

Oh look, Powerogue with another non-argument. What factually incorrect statement of yours will cause you to leave the thread this time?

It's not my fault you're a really, really confusing hypocrite. We wasted half a thread trying to figure out what on earth your positions are or their justification.

Old god blood = mmmm, delicious! Thanks, Garrosh!
demon blood = nope, that's where I draw the line?

[Wildberry]

I love the fact that he has no problem turning his back on the warchief if he doesnt represent the horde's interests.
He is loyal to the horde, not to the warchief...kinda like a reversed Nazgrim.

The Blood Oath establishes that there's practically no distinction to be made between the Horde and the Warchief. Disloyalty to one is disloyalty to the other.

[tangers58]

It is no secret that with the arrival of "Lost Honour" that a lot of people's perceptions of Saurfang have swayed, be they for better or for worse. So I was wondering, in an attempt to distill people's thoughts into a single place, how has this latest cinematic affected your sense of respect for this character - do you respect him more, less, or has it not affected your opinion either way?

He lost his spine. Better off with the humans now.

[Eggroll]

I have no horse in this race. However, I did like Anduin even less after this cinematic. Sacrificing nelves, too stupid to use his allies resources (Lightforged warriors, spaceship, etc..)

[Wildberry]

Old god blood = mmmm, delicious! Thanks, Garrosh!
demon blood = nope, that's where I draw the line?

Oh look, you're still being purposefully obtuse and spouting blatant misrepresentations that you've already been corrected on.

Heart of Y'shaarj=Two Blizzard statements saying that Garrosh was in full control of himself
Blood of Mannoroth=Pretty clearly established as corruptive and binds the will of the imbiber to the Burning Legion

I see you're still willing to argue against canon, though.

[Schattenlied]

No... In his eyes Sylvanas is the traitor to everything the Horde is supposed to value...

He has not allied himself with Anduin, Anduin has simply let him go, this is an "enemy of my enemy" situation, like Vol'jin and Varian both working to stop Garrosh in MoP, not a "we're friends now" situation... He is not a pawn or agent of the Alliance, they simply let him go so he could do what he wants to do.

[Regalosh]

Did Saurfang betray me as a player? Nope, I don't like being the bitch of Sylvanas and Nathanos. He is welcome to remove her from the Warchief position. My bigger concern anyway is the question of whom will follow Sylvanas, as we are lacking now any true leader to fill that already existing gap in.

[CasualFilth]

What a ...well elaborated and totally sound opinion im sure. ... If the character never had your respect you probably aren't really on the list of people who's attention matters anyway. Alliance player, butthurt or both i guess.

Faction has nothing to do with this. Saurfang's BfA story has so many inconsistencies that is hard to respect any of his actions pre-WoT and after.

[Powerogue]

The Blood Oath establishes that there's practically no distinction to be made between the Horde and the Warchief. Disloyalty to one is disloyalty to the other.

Which is why the blood oath is garbage when the warchief is actively working against the well being of the Horde, and has strangely enough never been referenced again since the rebellion.

The trouble right now is that Sylvanas isn't, she does want the horde to survive. But she is working against the well being of The Horde's principles that they all unite under.

Oh look, you're still being purposefully obtuse and spouting blatant misrepresentations that you've already been corrected on.

Heart of Y'shaarj=Two Blizzard statements saying that Garrosh was in full control of himself
Blood of Mannoroth=Pretty clearly established as corruptive and binds the will of the imbiber to the Burning Legion

I see you're still willing to argue against canon, though.

Ah, ok, so turning into a bloodthirsty, world domination craving supervillain and driving your faction to ruin is OK as long as it doesn't involve said corruptive magic selling them into slavery.

Slavery bad.

Death of entire faction on the sacrificial altars of the Old Ones good.

Thank you for clarifying.

[ravell]

For me , Saurfang is a traitor. Death to traitors! Long Live the Queen!

[Maljinwo]

Unchanged

I don't want Warchief Saurfang, but I'd take any chance to off Sylvanas that I get

[Zuben]

It continued the course his development had already taken, merely confirming that he's somewhat in cahoots with Anduin or at least they agree they have a mutual enemy in Sylvanas. Saurfang refusing to kill enemy leaders, or even stopping to participate in the war in general is very bad for the Horde. This war is fought for survival, neither side can back down at this point, so now is not the time to entertain such notions as honor. Avoid unnecessary cruelty, yes, but don't let it stop you from using effective measures.

Though some effective measures can be dangerous. We deposed Garrosh because he became detrimental to the Horde.

Spoiler: 

In 8.1 Sylvanas appears to use mind-control on Derek Proudmoore. That's fine enough at face value, since it isn't really that much different than what she's done so far, this too being a weapon against the Alliance first and foremost. But the inclination of what it means, what a threshold she's crossing she hadn't crossed up to this point; the Forsaken populace are very right to be worried of what will happen to their society if Sylvanas takes a liking to such ultimate control.

[KrakHed]

Saurfang might not be afraid of Anduin, but I don't think you're correct in assuming Saurfang views him as the laughingstock that everyone on the forums does. He did after all, in his own words, spare Anduin because he felt that Anduin was capable of stopping Sylvanas. In Saurfang's own judgment, Anduin was able to deal a blow against the Horde's Warcheif that he himself was either unwilling or unable to do.

I'm going by how Sylvanas sold the war to Saurfang. She didn't paint Anduin as the threat. She painted Genn, or the man who Anduin could grow up to be. In her picture, Anduin was a boy king who wouldn't reprimand a subordinate who went off on his own to engage in reckless hostile action.

I don't think the moment Saurfang spared Anduin was some moment he deeply considered. I think we're missing story here, but he probably held back because he has a hard time seeing Anduin as a true threat. Not as a plan, but more as a subconscious thing he thought about later.

Jaina might be a threat. Genn too. The Night Elves he helped slaughter would definitely be out for his blood and want the Horde to pay in full. Anduin, however, is observably too soft. Taking out Sylvanas might not end the war, but Saurfang's priorities aren't on ending the war right now.

And yet despite all that, he's willing to not only let Anduin live (after judging him to be a threat), but begin a journey to depose Sylvanas with Anduin's blessing.

The way I see it, it was a fairly slim hope on his part and maybe not even a conscious one. He thinks Anduin can take out Sylvanas, and can tell that all Anduin cares about is Sylvanas.

The war wouldn't actually end with Anduin's death. That'd be ludicrous. He's the type of golden boy who'd become a martyr for the people. The other side doesn't fall just because the leader was taken out. When Anduin Lothar was killed, his men rallied to avenge him.

So, not treating Anduin as a joke and merely judging him as a leader who is too soft and idealistic, I can reasonably expect him to want to take out Sylvanas. I can expect him to avoid damaging the Horde as much as possible. And considering the points Sylvanas used to manipulate Saurfang, I can expect him to lose influence the longer the war continues as it is. That'd be the realistic and cynical option.

If Anduin took out Sylvanas early, the Horde wouldn't be in an entirely different position than it is now. Someone else would have to step up as Warchief, but Anduin would probably declare "Mission Accomplished" and hold back until the Night Elves told him to fuck off and Alliance forces started moving on their own.

That is if Saurfang even considered this all in the moment, and not long, long after realizing that he actually had held back.

Right now, I'm waiting for a short story to drop, but what I see is mostly Anduin plying for sympathy to get what he wants and Saurfang being stripped of any excuse to keep sitting back. That last part being the most important.

It's not inspiring. It doesn't lead me to respect Saurfang. To me, this whole display is nothing short of pitiful, and I can't imagine it's supposed to be anything but pitiful. It's not a character interaction I like, and I might have preferred earlier versions of their conversation that they were thinking of, but he was always going to have a talk with Anduin here. Either with Saurfang initiating it or Anduin doing so.

If Saurfang initiated, as he was originally shown to in the beta, he would have sought and made an actual deal with the Alliance for his release. He'd have shown more initiative, and been less pathetic in that way, but it still wouldn't be a good look for him. In the current form, it's pathetic but there's no real deal. No bargain. Just an open door and an earnest plea.

I don't see it getting much worse than this, which is a rather hopeful perspective to me. Things can only get better.

[Dasharin]

Loved him before...love him even more now

Take it back Saurfang...reclaim the horde!!!

[Aeula]

It confirmed my suspicions about him. So significantly less respect, which is a lot considering I didn’t respect him before this. I’ll be siding with Sylvanas in 8.1 without a doubt. Even if there’s a neutral option.

[Wildberry]

Which is why the blood oath is garbage when the warchief is actively working against the well being of the Horde, and has strangely enough never been referenced again since the rebellion.

How you feel about it is irrelevant, it's still canon. How long it's been since it was last referenced is irrelevant, it's still canon until stated otherwise.

Since we were taking a trip down memory lane earlier, do you remember the time when you tried to claim there was no in-game reference to the Blood Oath?

The trouble right now is that Sylvanas isn't, she does want the horde to survive. But she is working against the well being of The Horde's principles that they all unite under.

"The Horde's principles" as a concept separate from the ideology of the Warchief is a non-canonical post-hoc rationalization of the events of WCIII. It's not codified, and while "felt" by people, is not binding or obligatory in any real sense.

Ah, ok, so turning into a bloodthirsty, world domination craving supervillain and driving your faction to ruin is OK as long as it doesn't involve said corruptive magic selling them into slavery.

Yeah, see the slavery and demons bit is the bad part. With regard to "bloodthirsty and world domination craving" they were in a state of total war for dominance prior to that. Wrathion's statements throughout the MoP Legendary questline made it pretty clear that the war was being viewed as such. That this didn't happen rests entirely on the existence of a Horde rebellion.

Slavery bad.

Yep. Glad we agree.

Death of entire faction on the sacrificial altars of the Old Ones good.

[Citation Needed] for sacrificial altars of the Old Ones