So Jaina is going to be a raid boss

[Combatbutler]

No, by the time humans even appeared, the Zandalari were confined to a single island, with other troll empires being more expansive, if less culturally developed. They had no real establishment to speak of. They were a fallen empire back then, and still are. Empires don't join power blocks out of desperation. And humans since then created three kingdoms that still exist to this day. And one of them is a magical flying city with a superlaser on top. The Zandalari don't even fully control the island they are on. Kul'Tiras is thrice the empire Zandalar is, and still only considers itself a kingdom. My point still stands - by the time humans were a thing, Zandalari Empire was just as much of an empire as kingdoms of Kul'Tiras or Stormwind are now. They most certainly lose their imperial status very soon even if you consider them an empire despite this, as they pledge themselves to the Horde, as empires are by definition sovereign states, while the members of the Horde are subjects of the Warchief. So Zandalari Empire won't be outliving any humans (except for the ones who will die during the rest of the battle and until Zandalar officially joins the Horde, which I'm sure is not what Rastakhan means) any time soon.

The first humans predate elf kind, they were just utterly hopeless on their own, they had Vry'kul teaching them shit and still didn't managed to get on their feet constantly banging each others heads in until Arathi and only survived because the high elves had been the main focus of the amani for several thousand years. So yeah Rastakhan dissing humanity is rather fitting.

[baskev]

no i mean turn him to loot piniata as literally loot piniata, like Karagath the horde hero in Shattered Halls, or Garrosh in SoO, or Nazgrim (my 2nd new most fav orc in wow, after Saurfang) in SoO, and so on
I can't name a single alliance hero that was turned to loot piniata that u can f8ck weekly with ur pet boar while afk (if u want to insult it, because before u say it i know u won't get loot if ur pet do all job), on reverse the list of horde heroes that u played with who turn to loot piniata is so long

If u talk about one time event like for example Battle for Undercity (wrath version or new one) u do know that u have exact counter on alliance side, so they neutralize each others, not to mention they aren't even loot piniata, no one die or get killed
As for horde won many battles, half of horde hate that 'won' battle of Teldrassil, I played alliance entire vanilla wow and even back then no one gave a f8ck about Teldrassil (stormscale eu, back when it actually had alliance times horde number), only ppl who go there are hipsters or ppl who just want empty city to check AH (but still no trade, so wtf ?), and even then it was one time event, if u feel 'sorry' go defile Orgrimmar during ur weekly routine of f8cking our city and warchief
I wish blizz be 'alliance biased' and give us Stormwind raid and put Anduin (or Greymane) as weekly loot piniata, and make horde the azeroth superpower, sadly blizz is 'horde biased' so that won't happen, they literally f8cked horde twice and not even single time alliance

No need for being agressive. As for examples...i gave you example's :S
So i raise your city with a whole zone....ever heard of darkshore...
I raise your city with SEVERAL dungeons....

[sam86]

No need for being agressive. As for examples...i gave you example's :S
So i raise your city with a whole zone....ever heard of darkshore...
I raise your city with SEVERAL dungeons....

which dungeon u talking about ? what dungeon horde has that f8ck an alliance city ? are u talking about gnomeregan that gnomes radiated it themselves? or stockades that also horde -lorewise- don't even enter in first place, have zero quest and no reason to go there except to twink alts (and twinking is dead now anyway)
which alliance city do we defile as horde ? which alliance hero was turned to loot piniata ? the old evil version of Moira that even alliance bitch-slapped her in her underwear in middle of her city (and she accepted it because the mighty human did it)?
if u want to count stockade then it is equal to RFC, do alliance even get quests there now ?

[transparentrock]

which dungeon u talking about ? what dungeon horde has that f8ck an alliance city ? are u talking about gnomeregan that gnomes radiated it themselves? or stockades that also horde -lorewise- don't even enter in first place, have zero quest and no reason to go there except to twink alts (and twinking is dead now anyway)
which alliance city do we defile as horde ? which alliance hero was turned to loot piniata ? the old evil version of Moira that even alliance bitch-slapped her in her underwear in middle of her city (and she accepted it because the mighty human did it)?
if u want to count stockade then it is equal to RFC, do alliance even get quests there now ?

I guess you could say we burned Stormwind a bit during the Stockades scenario.

[Vladier]

The first humans predate elf kind, they were just utterly hopeless on their own, they had Vry'kul teaching them shit and still didn't managed to get on their feet constantly banging each others heads in until Arathi and only survived because the high elves had been the main focus of the amani for several thousand years. So yeah Rastakhan dissing humanity is rather fitting.

That's not true. By the time human children were sent to the south, the followers of Tyr were either very few and soon gone, leaving behind only Tyr's teachings. All human children had were limited supplies their parents left with them, and very small contingent of Tyr's vrykul, so insignificant, that most humans (as in, everyone, except for a very small and secretive order of paladins) didn't even remember them and created a myth that it was Tyr who brought them there. Can't exactly blame a group of children for not building an empire out of scraps. Especially if your kind had magical animals and a sacred mountain, but still lost to a group of pandas a hundread years after the latter overthrew their Mogu masters.

It should also be noted that Amani were one of the more powerful troll empires. Before they even started their empire, their tribe defeated Kith'ix, and they built their empire out of the survivors of the battle on his corpse. By the time the first humans were born, they had about a thousand years of a headstart, and it was long before Dath'remar's exile. It should also be noted that the Chronicles outright says that the humans flourished in their lands and that the Amani were of a lesser concern to their tribes than other humans. It was only after the High Elves appeared and pushed the Amani from their sacred lands, and Zandalari offering their aid (including giving them Loa) seeking to resurrect their empire, that they became a threat. And then Amani almost completely died off and Zandalari were completely crushed in spirit (should've happened when they lost to the pandaren, but I guess back then they had a little bit more than an island with one city) because of a hundread human mages who were taught magic for a few months.

Although I must admit, I thought humans were born after the Sundering for some reason, and not 15000 years ago. No matter, just change "a single island" to "a single mountain", because that's what Zandalar was after elves appeared at about the same time. Still, Zandalar loses any right to call themselves an empire (the last of which is sovereignity) very soon after his death, without outliving last human kingdoms. Or, once again, without even being present for the birth of the first of them, considering that the Empire of Zandalar was hardly an empire after elves showed up, which, considering that between its foundation and the elves was about a 1000 years gap, meaning that it's existence was about as long as any of the human kingdoms except Arathor. So really, kingdoms of Stromwind or Kul'Tiras exist for about as long as the empire Rastakhan claims to be a king of, but really is more of a king of its inheritor city-state.

[yetgdhfgh]

This is pretty much the only shot we are gonna get at her and she walks away at the end

Blizz wont do that a second time

[Koraggar]

This is pretty much the only shot we are gonna get at her and she walks away at the end

Blizz wont do that a second time

Even if they did, what's stopping her from doing the same escape over and over again? Or any mage of equal or greater power doign so? It god damn broke the setting.

[yetgdhfgh]

Even if they did, what's stopping her from doing the same escape over and over again? Or any mage of equal or greater power doign so? It god damn broke the setting.

Houdini never escaped death as much as her!!

[baskev]

which dungeon u talking about ? what dungeon horde has that f8ck an alliance city ? are u talking about gnomeregan that gnomes radiated it themselves? or stockades that also horde -lorewise- don't even enter in first place, have zero quest and no reason to go there except to twink alts (and twinking is dead now anyway)
which alliance city do we defile as horde ? which alliance hero was turned to loot piniata ? the old evil version of Moira that even alliance bitch-slapped her in her underwear in middle of her city (and she accepted it because the mighty human did it)?
if u want to count stockade then it is equal to RFC, do alliance even get quests there now ?

Dungeons alliance housing/city: Auchidon (dreanor), Stockades, Gnomerergan,

Scenario: Theramore, stockades escape horde burn SW......yeah.

Raids: No raids yet ( garrosh in SoO does not count) but raid bosses...we got 2 major leaders upcomming in 1 raid :S

And no moving goal post...because if you do not count gnomeregan because of those reasons SoO does not count either. Because garrosh was no longer leading the horde. So it was not horde city anymore in that case :P.

And nice side step of the whole darkshore zone......Lets see your zone what got burned and then a other zone became a WQ zone...and later a site for death camps and a battleground......

[sam86]

Dungeons alliance housing/city: Auchidon (dreanor), Stockades, Gnomerergan,

Scenario: Theramore, stockades escape horde burn SW......yeah.

Raids: No raids yet ( garrosh in SoO does not count) but raid bosses...we got 2 major leaders upcomming in 1 raid :S

And no moving goal post...because if you do not count gnomeregan because of those reasons SoO does not count either. Because garrosh was no longer leading the horde. So it was not horde city anymore in that case :P.

And nice side step of the whole darkshore zone......Lets see your zone what got burned and then a other zone became a WQ zone...and later a site for death camps and a battleground......

if u want to count Auchidon seriously then we should counter entire Draenor planet for horde since it was horde in first place!
As for stockaeds and gnomeregan, already answered both
scenario: theramore is actually equal to Stoneard, in fact (ironic) stoneard is more useful as it had both alchemy and herbalism master, while theramore had only tailoring master back in vanilla, and stoneard give access to multiple raids while theramore gave access to one
Garrosh was literally horde warchief for 2 exps, how can u not 'count' him, and in next raid it is again literally 3 alliance vs 3 horde, we still beat u by warchief
-and let's see how many zones horde have in first place in compare to alliance, pls count horde vs ally zones since vanilla up, u know the zones that blizz developer flat out stated that they finished before even start on horde ones for demo (that was never released in end)
And lastly there is still no equal to SoO, we don't raid Stormwind on weekly basis, we don't turn Anduin to loot piniata

And nice quote, I'm not counting Gnomeregan because it wasn't horde who f8cked it, in fact lorewise horde probably didn't even go there in first place and have no reason to, while SoO it is literally f8cked by alliance armies and horde rebels (blizz don't use word army for horde, u do know that army is bigger than rebel groups right?)

- - - Updated - - -

I guess you could say we burned Stormwind a bit during the Stockades scenario.

a one time scenario, done by a villain that we literally kill few hours later (zul) and even turned to raid boss so alliance can get some sweet revenge on him after grave (and horde too)
if u want to count scenario then Theramore one make more sense, at least it was repeatable and i think still even in-game, and still zero alliance hero became loot piniata, and still theramore wasn't really important for alliance until way later for AQ event, in fact theramore is less important to alliance than its equal (stoneard) for horde, don't know why blizz did that, since theramore was big deal in wc3

[baskev]

if u want to count Auchidon seriously then we should counter entire Draenor planet for horde since it was horde in first place!
As for stockaeds and gnomeregan, already answered both
scenario: theramore is actually equal to Stoneard, in fact (ironic) stoneard is more useful as it had both alchemy and herbalism master, while theramore had only tailoring master back in vanilla, and stoneard give access to multiple raids while theramore gave access to one
Garrosh was literally horde warchief for 2 exps, how can u not 'count' him, and in next raid it is again literally 3 alliance vs 3 horde, we still beat u by warchief
-and let's see how many zones horde have in first place in compare to alliance, pls count horde vs ally zones since vanilla up, u know the zones that blizz developer flat out stated that they finished before even start on horde ones for demo (that was never released in end)
And lastly there is still no equal to SoO, we don't raid Stormwind on weekly basis, we don't turn Anduin to loot piniata

And nice quote, I'm not counting Gnomeregan because it wasn't horde who f8cked it, in fact lorewise horde probably didn't even go there in first place and have no reason to, while SoO it is literally f8cked by alliance armies and horde rebels (blizz don't use word army for horde, u do know that army is bigger than rebel groups right?)

man use paragraphs please....

Stop moving goal posts....because if you count dreanor i can count the whole world of warcraft because the horde came to Azoroth....

Stoneard....dude we are talking about alliance not having or having raids/dungeons etc...not on how usefull they are......you asked for a example where the horde destroyed a alliance town/city. look at theramore crater :P

And no you can not count garrosh. Because his acts made him no longer the leader of the horde. And the horde rebelled to him. If you count it like that...arthas is still alliance :S:S And SoO is not a horde loot piniata...because the people in there are no longer horde...they are garrosh his troops. Because if that is still the horde...what is the rebellion then?!?!?!

And what has a demo ( that was never released ) have to do with their not being alliance city's etc being attacked...

And you are still side stepping darkshore...proving you are just here to get attention....

You where talking alliance never got loot piniata dungeons etc. You count SoO...then Gnomeregan is also on the table ( as are way more things). But if you read what i wrote...i do not count gnomergan as a example.....

learn...2....read.

[sam86]

Stop moving goal posts....because if you count dreanor i can count the whole world of warcraft because the horde came to Azoroth...

Orcs are only alien race, alliance also have draenei, rest horde races are not aliens but natives that alliance actively tried to wipe out and failed

Stoneard....dude we are talking about alliance not having or having raids/dungeons etc...not on how usefull they are......you asked for a example where the horde destroyed a alliance town/city. look at theramore crater :P

because i played as alliance entire vanilla and i don't remember ppl caring about it at all, and that include the time after AQ was out, and it pissed me off how Theramore was that useless in wow after it was shown as big deal during wc3, so yes i don't count Theramore because blizz f8cked it up, they should made it better, they didn't

And no you can not count garrosh. Because his acts made him no longer the leader of the horde. And the horde rebelled to him. If you count it like that...arthas is still alliance :S:S And SoO is not a horde loot piniata...because the people in there are no longer horde...they are garrosh his troops. Because if that is still the horde...what is the rebellion then?!?!?!

No one in horde call Arthas alliance or count him as one, on other hand even today many alliance count Garrosh action as horde, including the ending cutscene of MoP where Varian states that if horde do 'that' again (that as Garrosh action), heck Jaina still count Garrosh acts literally as horde acts even now, check her sh8tty 'cinematic' for BFA

And what has a demo ( that was never released ) have to do with their not being alliance city's etc being attacked...

And you are still side stepping darkshore...proving you are just here to get attention....

Because u still ignore answering me? U complain that alliance lost Darkshore, u ignore what i said (i admit not sure to u or not) earlier that alliance actually dominate most world in first place, blizz can't make horde lose, yet they did that to our only zone in Barrens, that's why i told u let's count Darkshore, now show me how many zones right now are in alliance hands vs horde hands
And the demo is showing how blizz focus on alliance even until today, from game start they care for alliance stuff first, and even in BFA at least in sound department they flat out admit that they did the most work ever since wow start in an alliance zone (a little unrelated but this exp has the least make-sense dungeons in wow, why would horde go alliance jail, or alliance go horde burial ground etc? I guess lorewise alliance never go this and horde never go that)

You where talking alliance never got loot piniata dungeons etc. You count SoO...then Gnomeregan is also on the table ( as are way more things). But if you read what i wrote...i do not count gnomergan as a example.....

learn...2....read.

Because Gnomeregan is never counted as alliance, Orgrimmar we literally build it ourself in wc3, and try (and fail) to raid it in vanilla because Saurfang, and as horde it is TEH capital since ever, unlike alliance who had IF for long time until wrath as capital
Gnomeregan on other hand was never interacted with as an alliance city, u don't build it, u never walk in it, not to mention that most likely lorewise horde don't even go there, and doesn't have a single alliance leader lore figure (nor that gnomes even important, they have never been shown in cinematic after all), if we will count non-lore actions, than we as horde actually do go Stormwind and Kill Anduin/Varian, for the black bear mount at least

[Combatbutler]

That's not true. By the time human children were sent to the south, the followers of Tyr were either very few and soon gone, leaving behind only Tyr's teachings. All human children had were limited supplies their parents left with them, and very small contingent of Tyr's vrykul, so insignificant, that most humans (as in, everyone, except for a very small and secretive order of paladins) didn't even remember them and created a myth that it was Tyr who brought them there. Can't exactly blame a group of children for not building an empire out of scraps. Especially if your kind had magical animals and a sacred mountain, but still lost to a group of pandas a hundread years after the latter overthrew their Mogu masters.

Not all Vrykul left them there to fend for themselves, the children lived alongside Vrykul, if you disagree with that take it up with chronicles, that they later forgot about is entirely their own fault. The fact remains humans are among theoldest races had their parent race look after them for a time and accomplished nothing of note for over 10.000 years. Only then did they actaully manage to beuild a primitive kingdom, that could only thrive because the amani were preoccupied with another nation.

It should also be noted that Amani were one of the more powerful troll empires. Before they even started their empire, their tribe defeated Kith'ix, and they built their empire out of the survivors of the battle on his corpse. By the time the first humans were born, they had about a thousand years of a headstart, and it was long before Dath'remar's exile. It should also be noted that the Chronicles outright says that the humans flourished in their lands and that the Amani were of a lesser concern to their tribes than other humans.

And why did they flourish there? Because they were not the ones in the focus of the Amani, they still suffered raids of the trolls though and these raids were reason enough for the Arathi to force unity among the tribes, because they were afraid knowing full well, that humanity could not survive a direct confrontation with the trolls. Ultimately Humanity is pretty much as old as night elves and look at the difference in accomplishments.

It was only after the High Elves appeared and pushed the Amani from their sacred lands, and Zandalari offering their aid (including giving them Loa) seeking to resurrect their empire, that they became a threat.

The high elves were the center of attention from the amani for almost 7.000 years without them the humans would have suffered their wrath. The amani already sent raids into human territory while fighting with the elves, now take the elves out of the picture and humanities future would have been very bleak.

And then Amani almost completely died off and Zandalari were completely crushed in spirit (should've happened when they lost to the pandaren, but I guess back then they had a little bit more than an island with one city) because of a hundread human mages who were taught magic for a few months.

It was because the amani were caught between the main high elf army and the retreating human one and the firestorm that was created by both the elven sorcerers and the humans saying it was the 100 magi alone that turned the tide is quite dishonest.

Although I must admit, I thought humans were born after the Sundering for some reason, and not 15000 years ago. No matter, just change "a single island" to "a single mountain", because that's what Zandalar was after elves appeared at about the same time. Still, Zandalar loses any right to call themselves an empire (the last of which is sovereignity) very soon after his death, without outliving last human kingdoms. Or, once again, without even being present for the birth of the first of them, considering that the Empire of Zandalar was hardly an empire after elves showed up, which, considering that between its foundation and the elves was about a 1000 years gap, meaning that it's existence was about as long as any of the human kingdoms except Arathor. So really, kingdoms of Stromwind or Kul'Tiras exist for about as long as the empire Rastakhan claims to bebut really is more of a king of its inheritor city-state.

The difference it is still the oldest mortal nation on the planet and has outshined humanity through the past and all the humans have done until today is not as impressive as the troll nations of old and that is a fact, they once pretty ruled the world something humanity will never be able to achieve, they have always relied on others.

[Vladier]

Not all Vrykul left them there to fend for themselves, the children lived alongside Vrykul, if you disagree with that take it up with chronicles, that they later forgot about is entirely their own fault. The fact remains humans are among theoldest races had their parent race look after them for a time and accomplished nothing of note for over 10.000 years. Only then did they actaully manage to beuild a primitive kingdom, that could only thrive because the amani were preoccupied with another nation.

The Chronicles outright says that the parents outright left their children in the care of the local vrykul with a pitiful of supplies. There is no mention of them staying, and the only help the local vrykul are mentioned ever giving them is giving them Tyr's teachings. And once again, humans weren't bothered much by the trolls at all. Otherwise, how would they survive those scaaary Amani, when there is a gap of a few thousand years between the Sundering and the elves arriving to take care of Amani. And yes, they did accomplish something of note - creating many tribes that could be united in a kingdom strong enough to stand against the Amani.

And why did they flourish there? Because they were not the ones in the focus of the Amani, they still suffered raids of the trolls though and these raids were reason enough for the Arathi to force unity among the tribes, because they were afraid knowing full well, that humanity could not survive a direct confrontation with the trolls. Ultimately Humanity is pretty much as old as night elves and look at the difference in accomplishments.

Nope, the raids were fine. It was only when the Zandalari decided to help the Amani against the trolls that future king Toradin decided that they were dangerous and united the tribes. Says so in the Chronicles. Also, Night Elves have a goddess, the Ancients and the Well of Eternity, all the things on which their civilization was built, on top of being an entire tribe that got converted to elves, as opposed to human children (who were a part of a single generation of one vrykul clan) who didn't even contact the Light until after the Troll Wars.

The high elves were the center of attention from the amani for almost 7.000 years without them the humans would have suffered their wrath. The amani already sent raids into human territory while fighting with the elves, now take the elves out of the picture and humanities future would have been very bleak.

Nope, not 7000 yeras, not even close. Founding of Quel'thalas - 6800 BDP; the Troll Wars - 2800 BDP. Also, the Chronicles says that the Amani retreated to Zul'Aman after Ban'Dinoriel and the runestones were erected, and didn't bother the elves until the Zandalari gave them voodoo and Loa. In other words, those raids on the human lands that were so inconsequential that humans flourished despite them were the full undivided attention the Amani could master against the humans. Have you even read the Chronicles?

It was because the amani were caught between the main high elf army and the retreating human one and the firestorm that was created by both the elven sorcerers and the humans saying it was the 100 magi alone that turned the tide is quite dishonest.

The elven sorcerers that were there to teach those 100 human magi? In other words, supposedly very few elven sorcerers compared to 100 humans? Also, the firestorm is credited with killing most of their army, their chieftain and their Zandalari-given Loa. It was pretty much the magi that won that war.

The difference it is still the oldest mortal nation on the planet and has outshined humanity through the past and all the humans have done until today is not as impressive as the troll nations of old and that is a fact, they once pretty ruled the world something humanity will never be able to achieve, they have always relied on others.

I'd say that several active kingdoms outshine an "empire" of one city. Especially when one of those kingdoms is an island nation of similar size, except it has mastered its domain, unlike you; another leads an alliance that reduced any power you've ever held to sunken wrecks; and yet another hovers in the air and has magical laser on one of its towers.

Also, lol at Zandalari not relying on others. They have Loa who bring them power in exchange for worship, that alone doesn't allow them to say anything about being self-reliant; they couldn't quell other rebellious tribes, so they let them build their own empires to deal with the aqir; they had Mogu teach them magic and still lost against Mogu empire's slaves about a 100 years after those slaves freed themselves; they were at complete mercy of Azshara who probably didn't bother wiping them out only because she preferred silver jewelry to gold, as she was more afraid of the Ancient of Mount Hyjal than Zandalar; they tried to regain their power by outright relying on the Amani to destroy the elves and the humans, and then got depressed when that didn't happen, so they secluded themselves to their island; their expeditionary forces were always powerless to do anything about their missions, so they contracted adventurers to deal with the Gurubashi and Drakkari for them; they have to get help from the Horde to deal with insurrection, blood trolls and Korthek; and after the Alliance destroys their navy with a few bombs, they pretty much admit that they are worthless to the Horde and are at Sylvanas' uncharacteristic mercy. Oh, and the Alliance pities them and allows them the time to grieve over their king.

The only thing Zandalar outshines, say, Stormwind, is in the material their capitals are made of, literally. Oh, and that capital is built on top of a Titan facility, so the pyramid isn't even theirs.

[Deleted]

Golden defending her favorite character, of course not! She can do no evil, even her expelling the Sunreavers from Dalaran has been retconned already.

[HoodKazekage]

unlikely she is a very important warcraft character and with her just becoming admiral of the kul tiras fleet i doubt that they would kill her off

[baskev]

Orcs are only alien race, alliance also have draenei, rest horde races are not aliens but natives that alliance actively tried to wipe out and failed

Know your lore. Goblins where rare merchants some alliance members dealt with. Night elves and trolls fought eachother ( and where former 1 species). Tauren was not even know the the alliance.

because i played as alliance entire vanilla and i don't remember ppl caring about it at all, and that include the time after AQ was out, and it pissed me off how Theramore was that useless in wow after it was shown as big deal during wc3, so yes i don't count Theramore because blizz f8cked it up, they should made it better, they didn't

I remmember it to. But think bomming of theramore is worse.
And you are moving goal posts here. You say somethings can be used, but others that are pretty much the same can not...So they both count or neither.

No one in horde call Arthas alliance or count him as one, on other hand even today many alliance count Garrosh action as horde, including the ending cutscene of MoP where Varian states that if horde do 'that' again (that as Garrosh action), heck Jaina still count Garrosh acts literally as horde acts even now, check her sh8tty 'cinematic' for BFA

Simple because arthas and garrosh are 2 different things. If you played the game since the start you would know that.
Arthas was the old alliance ( north EK alliance). We are the new alliance ( south EK alliance) very different make up in races etc in it.
And arthas was not supported by the alliance...he killed them :S:S:S
Garrosh was a part of the horde ( current one) and was followed in the start.

Because u still ignore answering me? U complain that alliance lost Darkshore, u ignore what i said (i admit not sure to u or not) earlier that alliance actually dominate most world in first place, blizz can't make horde lose, yet they did that to our only zone in Barrens, that's why i told u let's count Darkshore, now show me how many zones right now are in alliance hands vs horde hands
And the demo is showing how blizz focus on alliance even until today, from game start they care for alliance stuff first, and even in BFA at least in sound department they flat out admit that they did the most work ever since wow start in an alliance zone (a little unrelated but this exp has the least make-sense dungeons in wow, why would horde go alliance jail, or alliance go horde burial ground etc? I guess lorewise alliance never go this and horde never go that)

I do not ignore you. I answer all your rants. Please tell how i am ignore you?!?! i answer all your questions .
And what has the zones to do with all of this. because it would be EK vs Kalimidor and horde has broken ilse in that case.

Demo shows nothing because it was not released. There once was a thing called a path of titans...it was not released so it is not part of cannon. I saw some fan fiction of wrathion and anduin ship...but its fan fiction so it is not cannon. As for the alliance being done first...it was a demo. Warcraft 3 showed a bit of the horde but not much. Some of the alliance races are old warcraft 1 + 2 + 3 races. So that would have gotten more attention.

Because Gnomeregan is never counted as alliance, Orgrimmar we literally build it ourself in wc3, and try (and fail) to raid it in vanilla because Saurfang, and as horde it is TEH capital since ever, unlike alliance who had IF for long time until wrath as capital
Gnomeregan on other hand was never interacted with as an alliance city, u don't build it, u never walk in it, not to mention that most likely lorewise horde don't even go there, and doesn't have a single alliance leader lore figure (nor that gnomes even important, they have never been shown in cinematic after all), if we will count non-lore actions, than we as horde actually do go Stormwind and Kill Anduin/Varian, for the black bear mount at least

....it is a alliance faction home town....and you do build and live in it...you start there as a gnome :S:S:S....

[sam86]

Know your lore. Goblins where rare merchants some alliance members dealt with. Night elves and trolls fought eachother ( and where former 1 species). Tauren was not even know the the alliance.

Forsaken literally join horde because alliance killed them on sight without negotiation, Goblins of Kezan alliance tried to kill on sight for zero reason (cinematic still exist in-game), Darkspear trolls alliance to purge because they exist (wc3 demo missions), Blood Elves alliance sent on suicide mission, failed, order to kill all of them, and later did the Purge of Dalaran (that is the OFFICIAL blizzard name of event), they tried to genocide twice against belfs for being belfs

I remmember it to. But think bomming of theramore is worse.
And you are moving goal posts here. You say somethings can be used, but others that are pretty much the same can not...So they both count or neither.

pls provide me with evidence that Theramore was as valuable as Stoneard for horde, I won't try make it hard as valuable as Orgrimmar, just Stoneard, a post, prove that and I'll agree that u should count it

Simple because arthas and garrosh are 2 different things. If you played the game since the start you would know that.
Arthas was the old alliance ( north EK alliance). We are the new alliance ( south EK alliance) very different make up in races etc in it.
And arthas was not supported by the alliance...he killed them :S:S:S
Garrosh was a part of the horde ( current one) and was followed in the start.

Chris Metzen literally stated that current alliance is continue of wc2 alliance, while current wow horde is founded by Thrall, Arthas was - at one point - acting as the highest active rank in battle, and one of highest alliance ranks, however Thrall mindset is clear, he knows that Arthas is different, alliance racism however never care to differentiate, they want to use excuse to just criminalize horde, something i already proved with alliance trying to genocide against 4 horde races for no reason (and if Garithos stayed alive more, he probably would wiped out dwarfs too)

I do not ignore you. I answer all your rants. Please tell how i am ignore you?!?! i answer all your questions .
And what has the zones to do with all of this. because it would be EK vs Kalimidor and horde has broken ilse in that case.

http://dongyrn.thegrahamdesign.com/i...rcraft_RC3.jpg
here is a map, count horde zones vs alliance zones, answer that question if u really want to talk about how alliance 'lose' lands vs horde, and remember that horde still lost half of barrens, only horde zone they have in vanilla

Demo shows nothing because it was not released. There once was a thing called a path of titans...it was not released so it is not part of cannon. I saw some fan fiction of wrathion and anduin ship...but its fan fiction so it is not cannon. As for the alliance being done first...it was a demo. Warcraft 3 showed a bit of the horde but not much. Some of the alliance races are old warcraft 1 + 2 + 3 races. So that would have gotten more attention.

wc3 has an entire human campaign in TFT while horde get 5 demo missions in wc3 roc, so again pls try compare ally vs horde (don't forget that nelfs joined alliance in wow, and they have full dedicated campaigns for them, scourge stayed enemies to both)
as for 'demo show nothing' it is irrelevant, the fact is they finished entire alliance zones before they even started on horde one, they said they did that to show demo in E3 of year 2003 but they decided to not show in end, but the fact still : blizzard 'horde biased' finished alliance zones before even start working on horde ones since day one

....it is a alliance faction home town....and you do build and live in it...you start there as a gnome :S:S:S....

the part u start in horde don't defile, raid or touch at all, if u want to count that part then literally count every starting alliance and horde zone, u really counting the starting part in front of dungeon as part of the INSIDE the dungeon that is accessible in-game, and still most likely lore-wise horde never touch it because it is full of radiation ?

[Combatbutler]

The Chronicles outright says that the parents outright left their children in the care of the local vrykul with a pitiful of supplies. There is no mention of them staying, and the only help the local vrykul are mentioned ever giving them is giving them Tyr's teachings. And once again, humans weren't bothered much by the trolls at all. Otherwise, how would they survive those scaaary Amani, when there is a gap of a few thousand years between the Sundering and the elves arriving to take care of Amani. And yes, they did accomplish something of note - creating many tribes that could be united in a kingdom strong enough to stand against the Amani.

They lived alongside the vrykul in tirisfal and those taught them the basics, which is the same as any other race had, yet the humans achieved nothing of note. No nation nada silch

Nope, the raids were fine. It was only when the Zandalari decided to help the Amani against the trolls that future king Toradin decided that they were dangerous and united the tribes. Says so in the Chronicles. Also, Night Elves have a goddess, the Ancients and the Well of Eternity, all the things on which their civilization was built, on top of being an entire tribe that got converted to elves, as opposed to human children (who were a part of a single generation of one vrykul clan) who didn't even contact the Light until after the Troll Wars.

The humans had shamans, look at what the orcs did with shamans back on draenor for example.

Nope, not 7000 yeras, not even close. Founding of Quel'thalas - 6800 BDP; the Troll Wars - 2800 BDP. Also, the Chronicles says that the Amani retreated to Zul'Aman after Ban'Dinoriel and the runestones were erected, and didn't bother the elves until the Zandalari gave them voodoo and Loa. In other words, those raids on the human lands that were so inconsequential that humans flourished despite them were the full undivided attention the Amani could master against the humans. Have you even read the Chronicles?

I specifically said almost because 6800 years is very close to 7.000. It is outright stated that the trolls plotted their vengeance on the elves, thus becoming the main target humans were an insignificant nuisance in comparison.

The elven sorcerers that were there to teach those 100 human magi? In other words, supposedly very few elven sorcerers compared to 100 humans? Also, the firestorm is credited with killing most of their army, their chieftain and their Zandalari-given Loa. It was pretty much the magi that won that war.

No you know the elven sorcereres in the main elven army that clashed into the amani in a pincer attack. Yes the magi won the war but not just the human ones.

I'd say that several active kingdoms outshine an "empire" of one city. Especially when one of those kingdoms is an island nation of similar size, except it has mastered its domain, unlike you; another leads an alliance that reduced any power you've ever held to sunken wrecks; and yet another hovers in the air and has magical laser on one of its towers.

Several kingdoms don't outshine the empires of the past at their height, the humans have had a nations for a measly 2.800 years and in that time their kingdoms have been laid low as well, only 3 remain.

The only thing Zandalar outshines, say, Stormwind, is in the material their capitals are made of, literally. Oh, and that capital is built on top of a Titan facility, so the pyramid isn't even theirs.

Oh I don't know, no troll nation was ever so pathetic that it was in the process of losing to gnolls, guess which kingdom was nearly destroyed by those.

[Mehrunes]

Horde bias is not just about 1 thing...i know its hard for people to understand this. But its a whole group of things.

And because any one thing "proving" the existence of the great demon of HORDE BIAS is pure nonsense so is the whole group of them. I mean, just look at your current exchange. You're scraping the bottom of the barrel by counting Auchindoun as Alliance loss (in the same post you refused to count SoO for the Horde for bonus inconsistency points).

Not all Vrykul left them there to fend for themselves, the children lived alongside Vrykul, if you disagree with that take it up with chronicles, that they later forgot about is entirely their own fault. The fact remains humans are among theoldest races had their parent race look after them for a time and accomplished nothing of note for over 10.000 years. Only then did they actaully manage to beuild a primitive kingdom, that could only thrive because the amani were preoccupied with another nation.

Hell, if you want a prime example of how pathetic WoW humans are, look no further than "the strongest Alliance faction", Stormwind. Humans moved there circa 3000 years ago. And in that 3000 years nothing of note happened. They had three millennia of uninterrupted existence. And yet less than a hundred years ago they still almost fell to Gnolls. Gnolls.