Saurfang is not a traitor

[Varlak]

Standing up against a leader is not treason.. Aiding the enemy is, however..

Pretty much this. if you think its justified that you work agaisnt your warchief well maybe you are right and you do the right thing. But you still a traitor. its pretty much the definition of beeing a traitor.

[Appelgren]

Oh yes he is! He is a traitor for sure. You can polish a turd how much you want but its still a turd.

/thread

[Powerogue]

If he's a traitor. Then Durotan, Orgrim, Cairne and Vol'jin are traitors as well.
All of these stood up against their warchief and are legends.

There are people on these forums who would say just that.

The big conflict comes from the wording of the Blood Oath. You pledge yourselves to both The Horde and the Warchief. But what are you supposed to do when the Warchief is no longer fighting for the Horde, but actively against them? At that point, as far as I'm concerned, the Warchief was the one who betrayed the horde.

Saurfang is in a wobbly place though because Sylvanas hasn't technically betrayed the Horde, only worked in an extremely destructive and cruel fashion to bring about an end to the Horde's enemies, executing those she (rightly or wrongly) perceived as threats to the Horde's long term survival, casting the Horde's moral principles aside as irrelevant.

Sylvanas may not lead the horde to ruin, but she is leading them to a place where they aren't worth fighting for. That may yet be even more dangerous.

[Mehrunes]

If he's a traitor. Then Durotan, Orgrim, Cairne and Vol'jin are traitors as well.
All of these stood up against their warchief and are legends.

This is beyond wrong. Durotan stood up to the Shadow Council. Orgrim issued a Mak'gora, which is a legal and accepted way in the Horde for someone to overthrow their Warchief and as such cannot be treason. Cairne also issued a Mak'gora, so same story here.

And yes, Vol'jin was a traitor. You know who argued that? Baine. During Garrosh's trial.

You've got nothing here and Saurfang is still a traitor. Because rather than challenge Sylvanas to Mak'gora (like he felt he should after Teldrassil), he disobeyed orders at Undercity. Teldrassil itself happened because he disobeyed orders in Darkshore as well. He abandoned the Horde, including the Orcs even though he has obligations to them as a racial leader, to sulk in Alliance prison (effectively shitting on everything the Orcish honor is actually about). And now he willingly accepted the role of Alliance's pawn.

Good point, probably. Does everyone that hates Saurfang now hate Thrall? Because Thrall was literally allied with much of the alliance, or whatever. (or Jaina, at least. I forget, I don't like Thrall)

Thrall was the Warchief. He could have allied with the Black Dragonflight if he wanted to, because that'd be his prerogative as the Warchief. It's the Warchief that sets the direction of the Horde. The likes of Saurfang do not. You're comparing apples to oranges.

There are people on these forums who would say just that.

The big conflict comes from the wording of the Blood Oath. You pledge yourselves to both The Horde and the Warchief. But what are you supposed to do when the Warchief is no longer fighting for the Horde, but actively against them? At that point, as far as I'm concerned, the Warchief was the one who betrayed the horde.

Saurfang is in a wobbly place though because Sylvanas hasn't technically betrayed the Horde, only worked in an extremely destructive and cruel fashion to bring about an end to the Horde's enemies, executing those she (rightly or wrongly) perceived as threats to the Horde's long term survival, casting the Horde's moral principles aside as irrelevant.

Sylvanas may not lead the horde to ruin, but she is leading them to a place where they aren't worth fighting for. That may yet be even more dangerous.

What you are concerned matters nothing. The Blood Oath is what it is and the Warchief literally cannot betray the Horde. The Blood Oath talks more about the members' obligation to the Warchief more than it talks about their obligation to the Horde itself. The Warchief pretty much is the Horde. And time and time again they set its direction to whatever they wished. And what you're supposed to do against bad Warchiefs is to challenge them to a Mak'gora.

And moral principles are worthless in warfare. Moral principles didn't magically protect the Forsaken fleet from Genn's surprised attack. Moral principles didn't protect Frostwolves from Stormpike incursion. Moral principles didn't protect the Tauren in Mulgore and the Barrens. Moral principles didn't protect Thrall's Horde from Alliance declaring war.

Alliance is a threat. An irrational threat that on one hand constantly hurr durrs about its moral superiority, on the other hand consistently ignores Horde's sovereignty over their own territory or outright attacks them on bullshit premises. And irrational threats are the worst. At least with Legion you could always expect they'd try to fuck the Horde up.

Alliance on the other pretends to be peaceful and a paragon of morality until it tires of it. Which is why any peace with Alliance is worthless. Sure, Saurfang could have his ten, twenty or fifty years of peace. Bu as Sylvanas correctly pointed out, what happens after that? What happens if another moron like Genn attacks the Horde out of nowhere? And then High King Blanduin does absolutely nothing about his subjects' blatant violation of peace he supposedly cares so much about?

Alliance is nothing more than a rabid dog and rabid dogs are put down. Real life's history shows that policy of appeasement towards an unpredictable hostile force that masquerades as peaceful as long as it suits them isn't exactly a good policy.

[Deleted]

I feel The entire reason call Saurfang is pretty much summed up in the quest to find out what happend to Saurfang.
The dark rangers, want to kill him, for the betrayl aginst the dark lady, and how he wronged the dark lady. Not the HORDE, no, saurfang remain loyal to the Horde, but since he does not Bow to the dark queen, then he is a "traitor" That quest chain REALLY sums it up well.

[Mehrunes]

Sometimes your greatest enemy isn't across the battlefield, but right there within your ranks. It's odd that so many Horde players think the leader who has absolutely no care for the living and is purely interested solely in self preservation and converting all life into undead under her own command is the one they should offer their complete and total subservience.

I don't see anyone claiming the Horde at large are traitors for standing against Nerzhul. Not much difference between Sylvanas' ultimate goals and the Lich King's. You have plenty of canonical text indicating Sylvanas' direct thoughts state she is not loyal to the Horde and sees them more as pawns and tools for her own designs.

Horde at large has nothing to do with Ner'zhul because he never joined the New Horde, was marginalized even in the Old Horde and created his own Horde of Draenor instead. And then was hijacked by the Legion and turned into something else entirely.

And your claims about Sylvanas' goals of converting all life into undead is nothing more than blatant fanfiction and as such has literally zero value towards a discussion of lore.

I feel The entire reason call Saurfang is pretty much summed up in the quest to find out what happend to Saurfang.
The dark rangers, want to kill him, for the betrayl aginst the dark lady, and how he wronged the dark lady. Not the HORDE, no, saurfang remain loyal to the Horde, but since he does not Bow to the dark queen, then he is a "traitor" That quest chain REALLY sums it up well.

Except this is a pile of falsehood, because that Dark Lady is the current Warchief of the Horde and treason against her is automatically treason against the Horde. On top of that, they want to capture him and turn hostile when Saurfang refuses to surrender and turns hostile first.

[Deleted]

Horde at large has nothing to do with Ner'zhul because he never joined the New Horde, was marginalized even in the Old Horde and created his own Horde of Draenor instead. And then was hijacked by the Legion and turned into something else entirely.

And your claims about Sylvanas' goals of converting all life into undead is nothing more than blatant fanfiction and as such has literally zero value towards a discussion of lore.




Except this is a pile of falsehood, because that Dark Lady is the current Warchief of the Horde and treason against her is automatically treason against the Horde. On top of that, they want to capture him and turn hostile when Saurfang refuses to surrender and turns hostile first.

it not false. You can Stand For the horde, but be aginst a Tyrant, That is LEGIDEMENTLY the story of Garrosh hellscreams as warcheif. So what you are saying, is the Entire horde, from saurfang to sylvanas, to voljin to baine to EVERYTHING is a traitor for they turned aginst the warcheif?
great. ALL are traitors, the only real loyal memebers died in Siege of Ogrimmar.

They did not want to capture it, it was made VERY CLEAR, they where there to kill him. yes he was told to surrender, but the option was Go and be executed or die in the swamp. it pretty much die or die. not MUCH of a choice. But ofc, Your right, there was Much Gray in that conversation, I Truly belived had he come back, there would have been a fair trial...


Edit: and to talk about the part about "your wrong she does not want to convert all life to undead"
And i quote Before the storm
"She was no longer a Dark Lady or even a queen. She was a goddess of destruction and creation, and she was stunned that she had never understood how deeply the two were intertwined. Armies, cities, entire cultures – she could raise them. "

[Evilfish]

I feel The entire reason call Saurfang is pretty much summed up in the quest to find out what happend to Saurfang.
The dark rangers, want to kill him, for the betrayl aginst the dark lady, and how he wronged the dark lady. Not the HORDE, no, saurfang remain loyal to the Horde, but since he does not Bow to the dark queen, then he is a "traitor" That quest chain REALLY sums it up well.

The questline can tell me whatever, unless they have him screw the Alliance badly, he's been ruined by inserting the Alliance in his rebellion story.

[WowIsDead64]

Problem is - I'm totally agree with Saurfang. (All following things would be true, if I would complete Horde Teldrassil burning questline, but I didn't, as I got mount via Alliance one) I wouldn't obey Sylvanas, when she ordered to burn the tree, but I was forced to by Blizzard. Now I regret it and don't want to serve her. What else should I do?

[Deleted]

The questline can tell me whatever, unless they have him screw the Alliance badly, he's been ruined by inserting the Alliance in his rebellion story.

How. ALL they do is let him out. They dont Do anything more. The Alliance realise The Best they can do For saurfang and Aginst Sylvanas is to do NOTHING at all. They help him leave, and that is it

where is the alliance insersion beside this? How have he been inflused by the alliance. Please. I love to know.

[Evilfish]

How. ALL they do is let him out. They dont Do anything more. The Alliance realise The Best they can do For saurfang and Aginst Sylvanas is to do NOTHING at all. They help him leave, and that is it

where is the alliance insersion beside this? How have he been inflused by the alliance. Please. I love to know.

I am getting the impression that you don't care about any response you get, but I'll try. His so called rebellion is jump started by the Alliance king who sends him into action by telling him he needs him, that's the biggest issue especially since he refuses to escape with the Horde when they find him in his cell. That plus he's been pulling his punches so Anduin might fix his problem which goes against his established character.

[Deleted]

I am getting the impression that you don't care about any response you get, but I'll try. His so called rebellion is jump started by the Alliance king who sends him into action by telling him he needs him, that's the biggest issue especially since he refuses to escape with the Horde when they find him in his cell. That plus he's been pulling his punches so Anduin might fix his problem which goes against his established character.

I problay wont change my mind that is right, but love a good talk.
His Rebellion is jump started by the alliance king. yea, but he was kind of in prison, hard to start a rebilion from the prison.
So let me ask you this, does just that make him a traitor to the horde or to sylvans? if you follow the quest chain, and sees the old soldier, and lost honor, it very clear his motive. he is ashamed, of what he have done ,what he have started. he is angry at what she is doing to his horde.
DO you belive his motives Is to HELP or to harm the horde? in his mind just. do you think he seeks the destruction of the horde and a inslavement by the alliance?

i dont think. He sees, this will be the 3rd time, The horde have followed tyrants to do unspekable things. The First Horde under the burning legion. The Garroshes horde, who started doing the same. And now the 3rd time with overly cruel act done in the name of Sylvanas.
I dont think he wishes to see the death of the horde, He might very well seek the death of Tyrant Sylvanas, so the horde can regain what was lost, and can grow to be better.

all of this is why, Saurfang is NOT a traitor to the horde. He is the start of a rebilion, Just as the horde did to overrthrow Garrosh, Like i said in a comment above. if you call saurfang a Traitor now, for going "AGINST THE WARCHEIF" then all current horde charcters that is over the age of 10 are traitors as they sided aginst the warcheif.

[ravell]

So every player is a traitor aswell. Considering Siege of Orgrimmar

I didnt raid SOO just because of this.

[Evilfish]

I problay wont change my mind that is right, but love a good talk.
His Rebellion is jump started by the alliance king. yea, but he was kind of in prison, hard to start a rebilion from the prison.
So let me ask you this, does just that make him a traitor to the horde or to sylvans? if you follow the quest chain, and sees the old soldier, and lost honor, it very clear his motive. he is ashamed, of what he have done ,what he have started. he is angry at what she is doing to his horde.
DO you belive his motives Is to HELP or to harm the horde? in his mind just. do you think he seeks the destruction of the horde and a inslavement by the alliance?

i dont think. He sees, this will be the 3rd time, The horde have followed tyrants to do unspekable things. The First Horde under the burning legion. The Garroshes horde, who started doing the same. And now the 3rd time with overly cruel act done in the name of Sylvanas.
I dont think he wishes to see the death of the horde, He might very well seek the death of Tyrant Sylvanas, so the horde can regain what was lost, and can grow to be better.

all of this is why, Saurfang is NOT a traitor to the horde. He is the start of a rebilion, Just as the horde did to overrthrow Garrosh, Like i said in a comment above. if you call saurfang a Traitor now, for going "AGINST THE WARCHEIF" then all current horde charcters that is over the age of 10 are traitors as they sided aginst the warcheif.

Right, I'll keep it brief cause writing on a phone is a pain for me. It does not matter what his intentions are, whatever he does now is Alliance stamped and approved, as far as I'm concerned Saurfang is ruined. Get it? That what it comes down to it, anything else, like comparing his actions to real-world scenarios is out of place.

I wish people would understand or stop pretending to misunderstand that some of us are tired of having the Alliance putting the Horde on a path that they obviously will never follow.

[Faroth]

False Equivalence. Under the concept of equity, if Orgimmar was killed off in an Alliance raid, then using the bodies to raise and fight for their home once again is arguably what Sylvanas does. Source: Alliance Assault on the Undercity.

Dead bodies can't fight for the Horde unless they're raised. This is what Sylvanas does, granting greater glory and honor to those that fell actually for the Horde or innocents killed by Alliance to exact justice on their murderers.

Killing the population of Orgimmar for no reason makes no sense and is an outright fallacy.

That's why it's a hypothetical. But consider the potential. If she blights them, they're all Forsaken. We've got more than one example now of Alliance soldiers being killed, raised and instantly turning against their allies in loyalty to Sylvanas. Not the Horde, mind you, but to her. It stretches belief that Sylvanas offers free will and the choice to remain Forsaken vs return to the grave to all, and she's clearly becoming even more focused on control with her actions against her own people and her thoughts on the Desolate Council. If she has the option to guarantee loyalty, she has a potential avenue for a completely loyal army.

Hence the hypothetical. If she blighted Orgrimmar and resulted in a loyal army of the undead, is that working in favor or against the Horde? You completely eliminate Saurfang situations and guarantee completely subservience to your Warchief.

- - - Updated - - -

it not false. You can Stand For the horde, but be aginst a Tyrant, That is LEGIDEMENTLY the story of Garrosh hellscreams as warcheif. So what you are saying, is the Entire horde, from saurfang to sylvanas, to voljin to baine to EVERYTHING is a traitor for they turned aginst the warcheif?
great. ALL are traitors, the only real loyal memebers died in Siege of Ogrimmar.

They did not want to capture it, it was made VERY CLEAR, they where there to kill him. yes he was told to surrender, but the option was Go and be executed or die in the swamp. it pretty much die or die. not MUCH of a choice. But ofc, Your right, there was Much Gray in that conversation, I Truly belived had he come back, there would have been a fair trial...


Edit: and to talk about the part about "your wrong she does not want to convert all life to undead"
And i quote Before the storm
"She was no longer a Dark Lady or even a queen. She was a goddess of destruction and creation, and she was stunned that she had never understood how deeply the two were intertwined. Armies, cities, entire cultures – she could raise them. "

I guess Blizzard's novels are nothing but fan fiction now.

[Deleted]

He is a traitor. I hope Sylvanas pegs him with a 15 inch strapon like the soyboy he is.

[shadycharacter1]

Sylvanas = Scourge

Saurfang = Horde

[Stormbreed]

People in here are so dull. You all understand that Sylvan ends this expansion as leader of the ALLIANCE right? How do you think we get there???

[pay928]

People in here are so dull. You all understand that Sylvan ends this expansion as leader of the ALLIANCE right? How do you think we get there???

Political marriage of Anduin and Sylvanas would be hilarious, as they lead the charge against the void lords.

[Powerogue]

I feel The entire reason call Saurfang is pretty much summed up in the quest to find out what happend to Saurfang.
The dark rangers, want to kill him, for the betrayl aginst the dark lady, and how he wronged the dark lady. Not the HORDE, no, saurfang remain loyal to the Horde, but since he does not Bow to the dark queen, then he is a "traitor" That quest chain REALLY sums it up well.

That's a pretty good summary. We have yet to see any sign of him wanting to betray The Horde. In fact he is probably the most patriotic character towards the Horde in the game. He has fought in all their wars. Good, bad, or otherwise, to protect The Horde. He only fears what Sylvanas is doing to it, and whether, by undermining the values that glue them together, she may destroy them.

"What I WANT is my Horde back."