Why not Daelin?

[Super Dickmann]

By this point we've all had our chance to shit on the Derek plot in one way or another. Be it because it doesn't make sense for the Horde to turn on Sylvanas over this as compared to her previous actions, that they still do nothing despite how against their morals it goes or what not. That's not what this topic is about though. This topic is about Daelin. Specifically, why he would have been a much better choice to raise as undead for both the Horde and Alliance plots. I am arguing from what Blizzard look to intend for the story to go, not my own preferences.

For the Horde, it gives a real reason for a turning point. Daelin is someone who's against the orcs, who died betrayed by his daughter and slain by the monsters who took his son away from him. Even conditioned into Forsaken service, Sylvanas would essentially be promoting someone who tried to exterminate both the orcs and trolls, which would give them ample reason to be pissed on top of the dubious worth Derek presents. He also makes her plan more plausible, especially if coupled with Sylvanas raising Jaina's ship, destroyed in the raid, to serve as his flagship and mass-resses Kul Tiran sailors for good measure, something that would better present how like the Lich King she's become in her necromancy. The emotional damage is the same and doesn't rely on the retarded assassination plan that's borderline out of character given Sylvanas' views on the living. It's a real military asset with a proven commander, emphasizing all the more how she doesn't care about the Horde except as a means to an end. Finally, Daelin's hate for the orcs can become a plot point during Saurfang's rebellion, giving the orcs their most emblematic nemesis again.

For the Alliance, the benefits are almost as big if not bigger. Derek is someone Jaina and her family feels bad for, but Daelin is the person around whom her arc was built on - her feelings of betrayal, Katherine's forgiveness of her daughter, as well as a reflection of the destructive mindset the Alliance is fearing it'll slip into over just bringing Sylvanas to justice. Confronting Daelin is confronting both Kul Tiras' past and Kul Tiras' future, with personal stakes in the Kul Tiran cast and ideological stakes vs Anduin and Tyrande. That Daelin is there is what their previous lenience bought, but it's also a show of how being a hate-filled revenant isn't the way to go for what follows.

Daelin is a character a lot more people have an emotional stake in, both in story and out, Derek is effectively a sad zombie to match Delaryn being a sad elf. Finally, from a logistics point of view, Daelin wasn't turned to ash, he was just stabbed, so he'd be easier to pick up. The ship graveyard can still be gone to, except it'd be a setpiece where Sylvanas/Daelin raises the fallen Kul Tiran fleet and its people as zombies. You can even have the dragon we find there as a Horde asset, continuing the Arthas parallels by likening it to Sindragosa.

Discuss.

[Aucald]

Presumably because Daelin's corpse is for whatever reason not accessible. Or perhaps there is the fear that the raised Daelin may not be as tractable as Derek - it is one thing to raise a weaker figure and perhaps fashion him into a tool to be used, it's another to raise someone who could conceivably be a force to be reckoned with all on his own. I doubt Sylvanas is really in the market to raise more potential enemies for herself - it may be a gamble she's not willing to make (and probably wisely at that).

[Super Dickmann]

For reference, I'm not discussing this from a Watsonian perspective. There's any numbers that can be found either way, but rather from a Doylist perspective of how it could improve the story they're set on telling.

[Zandalariprelate]

Dealin is being saved by the shadowlands content or else he and Arthas would have been throwed to be recuperated by the forsakens and form their ex enemies league orden

[Tyrathius]

For the same reason Uncle Ben never comes back. Daelin's death is too important to Jaina's character to be retconned.

Plus, the idea of Daelin ever working for the Horde is just absurd. Derek we didn't know that much about, so it's easier to believe he could be turned.

[Super Dickmann]

For the same reason Uncle Ben never comes back. Daelin's death is too important to Jaina's character to be retconned.

Plus, the idea of Daelin ever working for the Horde is just absurd. Derek we didn't know that much about, so it's easier to believe he could be turned.

That can be solved by just making it flat out mind control rather than this song and dance. They're already making Sylvanas Satan so just bite the bullet and stop pussying around.

[Aucald]

For reference, I'm not discussing this from a Watsonian perspective. There's any numbers that can be found either way, but rather from a Doylist perspective of how it could improve the story they're set on telling.

It would still have to be explained with a valid lore-based "hook," and probably in a manner more convincing than Derek's recovery was (given that the man should by all rights be undifferentiated ash with perhaps a few charred bones lingering on the sea floor). I think Daelin being raised would have quite a few interesting implications for the story, if it were feasible - many of the ones you've mentioned seem apt, but I don't think Daelin could ever be made to serve Sylvanas and the Horde in any way that wouldn't blunt his will so severely that it would make him a useless asset to Sylvanas. It seems more likely that Daelin would refuse both Sylvanas' service and probably shrug off her attempts to control him. His re-integration into the Alliance of today wouldn't go so stellar, either; especially if he maintained the mindset he did back in WC3: TFT when he died. The other Alliance leaders would have a hell of a time trying to reign him in if he did join them, or they might try to destroy him outright as an abomination (which could also conceivably happen with Derek).

[MechaCThun]

My reasoning: Daelin died at Theramore and presumably his corpse was buried there as well. When the mana-bomb was dropped and decimated the island, it also decimated the corpse.



EDIT: Just read that there is a grave for Daelin in Boralus. I suppose the corpse is there, or maybe it's just a memorial?

[KainneAbsolute]

They found Derek by chance, they didnt expected to do it because they looked for someone else.

[Minikin]

My reasoning: Daelin died at Theramore and presumably his corpse was buried there as well. When the mana-bomb was dropped and decimated the island, it also decimated the corpse.



EDIT: Just read that there is a grave for Daelin in Boralus. I suppose the corpse is there, or maybe it's just a memorial?

eh they can retcon around that given that derek was killed by dragon fire.

but they wont. because then it would actively without a doubt say sylvanas is mindcontrolling. and they would rather dance around that.

[Super Dickmann]

EDIT: Just read that there is a grave for Daelin in Boralus. I suppose the corpse is there, or maybe it's just a memorial?

It's unclear. In any case they can just retcon his whereabouts for whatever makes a dramatic story like they did Derek's. That way you'd also have a more meaningful goal for the war campaign since you have the set aim of finding Daelin from the start rather than having to piece together your plan as you go from raising random replacement characters valuable Kul Tiran assets.
@Aucald

The will aspect can be worked around. I also think that Daelin, should he be risen and figure out what's going on would immediately tell Sylvanas to go fuck herself. Then you can have her break her taboo on mind control publicly and have this be another mark against her. How much of Daelin's personality you maintain just a matter of how it's written, the same way it varies among Forsaken and Scourge. For the purposes of the story, he'd essentially focus on his main thematic points - hate for the orcs/Horde, betrayal for his daughter, twisted love for his kingdom, etc.

[Deleted]

Daelin's soul may not be available. It was used as part of the horseman ritual by the Deathknights in Legion.

[Flurryfang]

Sorry to say, but i think Daelin is too "big" a character to bring back. He has already been heavily used for the lead up to BFA and then have him come back again to press down on Jaina again, it really does create a completly different story than the story Derek gives.

Blizzard have designed the alliance story of 8.0 to end with Jaina finally stepping past her own problems and becoming more assured of herself after all the guilt she had dealt with at Theramore. Her being saved from her torment at the end of the war campaign puts a nice bow on it and she is now in control again. Bringing back Daelin will just be beating a dead horse, by having him once again be used to press on Jaina either as a hostage or as a amplifier of doubt. Derek works much better because he can be disguarded or upgraded in character as needed, and he won't take the spotlight away.

So that is why Daelin is a bad choice to resurrect. His story is done and his legacy have also hit a conclusion so far.

[Maljinwo]

Plus, the idea of Daelin ever working for the Horde is just absurd.

Replace Daelin with Anyone and you get why the Forsaken are awfully written

[Feanoro]

Hey, they asspulled a functioning body from ashes that should have been scattered by the ocean, they could asspull Daelin yelling "Fer deh Derk Lerdy!" instantly like NElves in Darkshore.

#DaelinWasRight

[Super Dickmann]

So that is why Daelin is a bad choice to resurrect. His story is done and his legacy have also hit a conclusion so far.

The thing is, as the story stands, Jaina overcoming Daelin doesn't really fly. Neither she nor Katherine actually encounter or overcome his viewpoint. Not just because he's provably correct, but because her story is about reconciliation and it just never comes up. Derek doesn't solve this issue because he's just a sad dude meant to ultimately reintroduce Calia. Daelin himself less so.

[EbaumsTipster]

Because the Horde would have zero problem with Sylvanas playing Manchurian Candidate with Daelin because he's an enormous asshole that made it his M.O. to murder tons of proto-Horde that weren't doing much. Hence why they chose someone less known to the Horde lore characters.

[Dagoth Ur]

EDIT: Just read that there is a grave for Daelin in Boralus. I suppose the corpse is there, or maybe it's just a memorial?

If it's there we could've snatched it during the Siege of Boralus. It would make for cooler quest objective than what we had honestly.

[Naked Snake]

I was thinking about that too. I was wondering if maybe at the end of the expansion we'll fight him.

[Super Dickmann]

Your crystal ball appears to be filled with bong smoke and covered in crack rock dust.

You misunderstand me. I don't think this is going to happen, it obviously isn't. Rather that the thematic beats hit with Derek would be better achieved with Daelin. I.e, an alternative story idea.