M+ increasingly toxic and elitest

[bullseyed]

Ilvl is a simplification of gearscore.

Uhh... no... ilevel is item level. Gearscore was the first addon that exposed item level and summed it up. The item level used to be hidden, but Blizzard put it on the tooltip after gearscore became popular.

There is literally zero difference between gearscore and item level.

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I like how I gave multiple examples and you cherry picked the only one that fueled your narrative

I also like how you had to boil it down to rewards, rather than the original point which was random people can still be dicks in other types of grouped content.

But all that aside, if you join a PuG for a specific boss but the raid fails to kill it (or you get kicked) then yes your individual rewards are still affected.

The raid does not end with zero rewards if someone leaves the group. In M+, if someone leaves, everyone in the run gets no rewards.

Someone leaving in M+ is no different than running a raid and kicking PUGs right before the boss dies so they get no loot.

[sil3ntearth]

They should come up with a better system than time limits. Always hated those eversince old school nintendo games.

Agreed. I think the time limits are what really makes the elitism bad. When you're trying to get something done as quickly as possible of course you're going to take whatever class is performing the best.

[bullseyed]

I wouldn't bother rio much, if people wouldn't act like elitists in perfectly doable low key content. My rogue has ilvl 342 and i don't get a single invite for +2.

342 most often means fresh 120 who afk'd through warfronts for a day or two to get full 340 + 1 free piece of 370 gear.

I'd actually be more likely to take someone under 340 or over 350 than anyone from 340-349.

Just one of those weird things. This is also all theoretical as I don't post groups for +2 keys.

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I just hit 120 4 days ago. I have done every single thing i can do without a guild. I just want to progress via m+ and i don't expect to get carried by some people so a simple +2 should be doable. Gear is and was always a bad indicator how someone plays out. I see astronomical shitlords gameplaywise with 370+ that can't handle simple things. If your new character can't progress through content thats fit your itemlevel, then it's bad design per default. I haven't had these problems in legion btw.

So you cleared heroic raid already? Why only at 342 then?

[Great Destiny Man]

The raid does not end with zero rewards if someone leaves the group. In M+, if someone leaves, everyone in the run gets no rewards.

Someone leaving in M+ is no different than running a raid and kicking PUGs right before the boss dies so they get no loot.

Going to write this again as you seem to have missed it last time:

I also like how you had to boil it down to rewards, rather than the original point which was random people can still be dicks in other types of grouped content.

[ragethebeast]

If you thought about it for even a short amount of time, you would understand that you are wrong.

M+ is not only about "face roll through this dungeon as quickly as you can, the difficulty you can complete is determined by your gear and comp"
It's about preparation, learning, adjusting on the fly and playing to the maximum of your ability.
The timer is there, so that you will have the pressure to make the best plays you can while not being able to just wait things out.

Think of it like a test\exam.

Taking out the timer leaves you with two possibilities.
- All dungeons stay at the same challenge level with no possibility of progress beyond the last boss (Like in TBC)
- All dungeons become automatic upgrades.

The second outcome will make it so there is just no challenge in M+, only time spent. It will wear down on players and no one will want to push that 40+ key that requires around 20 hours of sitting stagnantly, waiting for cool downs for each pack. and every player in the game will have his own time gate for what key he can do.
the lower levels will just be the same - but slightly more brainless, you just pull and pull and pull until you succeed. No thought process, no tactics needed, no strategy - to me at least, that sounds horrible... If that something that suits you - Maybe you should play a different aspect of the game\a different game entirely.

The first outcome - TBC was 12 years ago, times change... The whole reason M+ was brought in Legion was to spice up the dungeoneering aspect of the game, and it succeeded.
If M+ was like TBC, it just wouldn't work with multiple levels of difficulty, which takes the "+" out of it.... then you are left with the Mythic.

So.... Maybe you should stick to that?

Also... saying that you find timers "boring"... why are they boring? because they force you to have a faster thought process? because they put you in a mode where you might lose?
Like, how can a dimension be boring? It's like saying WoW is more boring than a picture of an Orc facing a Human because it has depth.

So yea, i assume you're afraid of failing...

Its boring because its difficulty is artificial. Hell its not even just the timer. Mythic+ is boring because its a timer and % health and damage buffs...literally the laziest and most artificial way of making something difficult. Dynasty warrior series is notorious for this, the higher difficulty level you select doesn't make them use improved tactics or anything just an exponential Health and damage bonus and games have long since been chided for having bullet sponge enemies. If you want me to take mythic+ as something serious and not just something for people who have ADD put in some real challenge.

Since the Diablo 3 team are running WoW now, make Mythic+ dungeons map layout randomly generated. Have bosses and trash that act like island expeditions that can "invade the run" without warning. Have non-set piece bosses be stealth in different locations, or have them placed in a trash pack in a hallway.

[boz0]

Blizzard should make it so if you leave a M+, you can't get a bonus chest at all for that week. Even if you do a +21 in time.

That's been suggested many times, but that doesn't make it a better idea. There are just too many ways such a system could be abused to make a player pay for other people's toxicity or mistakes.

If they ever make such a system, I'm convinced over half the tanks and healers will vanish from the PUG scene (I know I would).

No one other than the tank needs to know the pull flow of a M+, as no one but the tank does pulling.
DBM announces what and when to interrupt.

For the pull flow, agreed. But as great as DBM is, it's just not enough to make a smooth run.

To take a simple AD example : DBM doesn't tell you where to hide from Rezan's roar or that you should kite in the water (unless buffing a rogue), it doesn't tell you to pack together on Yazma, and it doesn't tell you to CC the gold ooze on the priestess. Are any of these complicated? No, once you've learned the dungeon, in other words once you've got experience. The tank's job is critical, but you won't time a 10+ if half the group has no idea of what's going on.

[Kreo]

If you pugging, you can significantly reduce the toxicity just by inviting people into your Discord. Talk to them along the way and somehow worst keys turn into pretty OKish, you might even make friends along the way. Even if they too shy to talk and only listen, still way better to coordinate pulls this way.

[Gorsameth]

M+ doesnt have leaver punishment because its not supposed to be pug content. You can chose to pug M+ just like you can chose to pug non-lfr raids but at its core its designed as content for a premade group that is able to work together.

[boz0]

I wouldn't bother rio much, if people wouldn't act like elitists in perfectly doable low key content. My rogue has ilvl 342 and i don't get a single invite for +2.

As anyone who's ever created a group knows, you're quickly flooded with join requests. If there are 10 dps applying with ilvls ranging from 335 to 355, your 342 will almost never get picked, simply because a higher ilvl toon means less chance of things going south.

This is also true at any non-godly ilvl. My DH is 370, and I have trouble getting into +10s, because there are 375-380 ilvl applying.

The good news, though, is that people are lazy, and comparatively few are willing to make their own group, so making your own works wonders.

[Daevied]

So whats the baseline raider.io rating to get invited to +10? I have been stuck in like 500-600 i think, havent had the chance to go any higher than+9 couse i barely get invited in pugs lol.

[crono14]

So whats the baseline raider.io rating to get invited to +10? I have been stuck in like 500-600 i think, havent had the chance to go any higher than+9 couse i barely get invited in pugs lol.

I haven't played in over a month, but I think I had 800 or so when I quit. I had no problems getting into 10's at that point.

[Great Destiny Man]

If you pugging, you can significantly reduce the toxicity just by inviting people into your Discord. Talk to them along the way and somehow worst keys turn into pretty OKish, you might even make friends along the way. Even if they too shy to talk and only listen, still way better to coordinate pulls this way.

On the whole, yea people are less likely to be toxic over VoIP services (and I'd certainly advocate using it).

It does get a bit irritating when they physically join the server but have the actual voices muted, makes it a wasted effort. Thankfully can count one hand how many times that has happened.

[bullseyed]

ret palas, ferals, shadows, eles are told "lul ur class is 4 heal".

Anyone who thinks those specs don't do good damage is bad.

Feral is one of the top single target DPS specs. Their "rotation" is aids and no one in their right mind would want to press that many keys... but the damage is great if you do it properly.

[StrawberryZebra]

Agreed. I think the time limits are what really makes the elitism bad. When you're trying to get something done as quickly as possible of course you're going to take whatever class is performing the best.

I don't think the timer helps the situation, but I don't think it's the only cause. Class Balance is also an issue too, I run M+ with a friend who plays an Enhancement Shaman and people will ask me to kick him and replace with a DH or Rogue in chat. Healers on occasion just nope on out of the group.

The primary reason, imo, is the limited nature of keystones. You get one chance per week and you're going to do everything in your power to make it a success given how much potential loot is on the line. Even if you're using someone elses key, you've still got the dungeon loot and potentially your weekly chest.

When you mix limited resources, strict timers and class balancing issues together you're going to breed elitism. When the general point of view is that the very best is barely enough, then you've got some serious systemic issues on your hands. It's something that needs addressing by Blizzard at one level or another.

[bullseyed]

Going to write this again as you seem to have missed it last time:

I also like how you had to boil it down to rewards, rather than the original point which was random people can still be dicks in other types of grouped content.

Your "point" is: We don't need to cure cancer because sometimes people get the chickenpox too.

No one cares to engage with your comments due to the intelligence level of them.

[Meiffert]

It's crazy that there is a leaver penalty for random normal dungeons and not M+. It is crazy that you can be harassed via votekick from a normal island expedition and get a 30 min matchmaking cooldown, but not M+.

Automatically created groups have automatically enforced rules.
Manually created groups have manually enforced rules.

It's really as simple as that, there is nothing weird about it.
If you could queue for M+, leaving one would probably prevent you from queuing for another for half an hour. But it makes no sense to prevent you from queuing for M+ for half an hour when queuing for them is not a thing in the first place.

Blizzard should make it so if you leave a M+, you can't get a bonus chest at all for that week. Even if you do a +21 in time.

Cool, I will join your group on my tank and go AFK while playing on my second account or watching Netflix.
Too bad about your chest.

You understand that such a rule would kill any key pushing as well as pugging because any time you are legitimately unable to finish a dungeon (a tyrannical boss on +18 is harder than you anticipated and you simply can't finish it; or maybe there is even a bug). Now you have to draw straws between you 5 to decide who sacrifices their character for the week and leaves first.

[ReD-EyeD]

WW monks are underated and fit in very well in mythic plus groups. I had to play a few dungeons with one to see it myself. Good karma needs a rework tho. That talent is ridiculously dumb.

It is being reworked in 8.1

[Mardux]

I don't think the timer helps the situation, but I don't think it's the only cause. Class Balance is also an issue too, I run M+ with a friend who plays an Enhancement Shaman and people will ask me to kick him and replace with a DH or Rogue in chat. Healers on occasion just nope on out of the group.

The primary reason, imo, is the limited nature of keystones. You get one chance per week and you're going to do everything in your power to make it a success given how much potential loot is on the line. Even if you're using someone elses key, you've still got the dungeon loot and potentially your weekly chest.

When you mix limited resources, strict timers and class balancing issues together you're going to breed elitism. When the general point of view is that the very best is barely enough, then you've got some serious systemic issues on your hands. It's something that needs addressing by Blizzard at one level or another.

One chance? You can run as many keys as you want. The only limit on how many keystones you can run is the time between weekly resets.

[Great Destiny Man]

So whats the baseline raider.io rating to get invited to +10? I have been stuck in like 500-600 i think, havent had the chance to go any higher than+9 couse i barely get invited in pugs lol.

The question isn't so much "what rating do I need to break into 10s" it's moreso "what actions should I take to get the experience of 10s overall".

The best course of action is group up with people you know and trust. At least that way if things go pear shaped they won't (hopefully) abandon the run unless there's absolutely no chance of finishing the run. Also there's the chance to ask questions about efficient routes and more efficient ways of dealing with mechanics/affixes.

You could also host your own +10 key and mention in title/description that you aren't interested in doing it on time, just for weekly. You're more likely to attract people who don't have the experience though (reducing chances of getting through the whole thing) and it doesn't prevent people from joining the run and bailing halfway through.

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Your "point" is: We don't need to cure cancer because sometimes people get the chickenpox too.

No one cares to engage with your comments due to the intelligence level of them.

You're just full of strawmans today aren't you?

You have no intention to actually read and comprehend my comments so I'll have to bid you a good day sir

[bullseyed]

To take a simple AD example : DBM doesn't tell you where to hide from Rezan's roar

It says to break LOS. Where you break LOS does not matter.

or that you should kite in the water (unless buffing a rogue),

Not a M+ mechanic, and anyone raiding knows not to stand in the purple glowy on the floor.

it doesn't tell you to pack together on Yazma,

Not a M+ mechanic, and isn't really necessary for good groups. You can just stun/slow your spawn and merc it in 4-5 hits. Only "need" to AOE them if you're bad at ST DPS.

and it doesn't tell you to CC the gold ooze on the priestess.

It says to change target and kill it, because that is what you're supposed to do.

Are any of these complicated? No, once you've learned the dungeon, in other words once you've got experience. The tank's job is critical, but you won't time a 10+ if half the group has no idea of what's going on.

None of these have anything to do with M+. Clearing the dungeon once on normal is the same experience as clearing it on 10+ as for knowing what to do for the mechanics you listed. Or just reading the dungeon journal. Or just doing what DBM says and/or watching the other people in the group.

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Cool, I will join your group on my tank and go AFK while playing on my second account or watching Netflix. Too bad about your chest.

That can be done today, but doesn't seem to happen. Seems pretty easy to just perm-ban any account doing that. And the leader can just kick you for it.

You understand that such a rule would kill any key pushing as well as pugging because any time you are legitimately unable to finish a dungeon (a tyrannical boss on +18 is harder than you anticipated and you simply can't finish it; or maybe there is even a bug). Now you have to draw straws between you 5 to decide who sacrifices their character for the week and leaves first.

Disbanding =! leaving.