12 Killed at Thousand Oaks Nightclub shooting

[roboscorcher]

You inherently need a mental illness to be able to randomly kill someone.

Randomly, yes. But if there was motive, no mental illness is required. History is full of murderers who had both a healthy brain and hateful religious/racial ideology. It's up to government to prevent these people from acting out, by promoting tolerance and placing reasonable restrictions on weapons (of any type).

[petej0]

You're most certainly correct. Most countries treat their populace like they ALL have mental illnesses and take away certain freedoms.

With all freedoms come costs. With all freedoms taken away, there is cost as well. As a nation, we're built upon freedoms, and have to deal with the costs of those freedoms. We've given our citizens the right to own firearms, as a right to self-defense, and to prevent a tyrannical take-over by government. What this means, is that we have to be better on Mental Health issues than other countries. Other countries can simply ignore their mentally ill, we have to be more proactive, given the freedoms we enjoy.

This is the biggest takeaway. We should always do what we can to reduce deaths, but as long as we have the freedom, there will always be people who die as a result of firearms.

We allow private pools, there will always be drownings. We dont demand every person to have a life guard on duty, but we demand practical and sensible controls to avoid accidental drownings.

We allow citizens to buy and store highly toxic chemicals for cleaning so there will always be accidental poisonings. We dont demand every household to have MSDS material and OSHA inspections, but we have practical and sensible recommendations to avoid accidental poisonings.

Firearms should be no different. The point of contention is what is deemed practical and sensible.

[Unholyground]

Stop prescribing anti psychotics drugs and start prescribing marijuana, it will go a long way and not one will get shot. The real issue is all these insane prescription drugs they make, many do far more psychological damage than they fix.

[petej0]

The vast majority of gun-related homicides are not caused by mental illness. Mental illness is just a scapegoat that the media uses.

The vast majority of gun-related homicides are not mass shootings either. I think when it comes to walking into a place full of people with the intent to kill as many as possible that has some mental illness involved. How could it not? It is not normal for a person to plan and then want to walk into a crowded place to kill people.

Do you really think personal firearms would prevent any kind of take-over? The military having drones and all, they could just blow up a rebellion from the sky. I'm genuinely curious about this, but I don't accept the idea that freedom is all or nothing. You could restrict gun ownership and still have gun rights.

The US military is not adept in fighting a battle using guerrilla warfare. Traditional military weapons would not be useful against the US citizenry for a number of factors. The optics of the US military using conventional weapons (bombers, tanks armored fighting vehicles) on its own citizens and infrastructure.
The fact that the military would fracture between those who choose not to fight, those who choose to fight for the Government and those who choose to fight against Government.

If we got to a point where the US Military was turned on its own citizens, what would more likely happen is States breaking away from the Union, so it would be State National Guards and militias against whatever is left of the US Forces.

[alturic]

As a behavioral psychologist I can tell you for certain you do not need to be mentally ill to kill people. You don't have even have to be mentally ill to kill your own children.
Being mentally ill (can sometimes) lower the bar, bit usually they do not succeed or telegraph to their friends family what they are gonna do and get stopped.
Having guns also drastically increases the chance of suicide and murder. I think it was like a 10000% increase for suicide.
In other words, humans suck to begin with and guns make it a lot easier to make it a lot worse.

Well when people, like myself, say "mental illness", we more-so mean something is clearly wrong is someone's brain (i.e. not normal) to want to take an innocent life, would you agree with that? You're surely not saying that because I have an arsenal in my closet I'm somehow inherently more likely to kill my family?

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Randomly, yes. But if there was motive, no mental illness is required. History is full of murderers who had both a healthy brain and hateful religious/racial ideology. It's up to government to prevent these people from acting out, by promoting tolerance and placing reasonable restrictions on weapons (of any type).

Motive is wayyyyyyyyyyy different. Motive would also mean you wouldn't... randomly, want to shoot up a bunch of kids at a school... just 'cuz.

[schwank05]

Mental health issues exist in all countries. Mass shootings don't. Also, most mass shooters and terrorists don't have mental illnesses.

Most are trying to commit suicide and want to have their name remembered so they go to gun free zones and kill as many people as possible, that is why they go to schools because they know if they kill kids they will get more fame for it.

[petej0]

Motive is wayyyyyyyyyyy different. Motive would also mean you wouldn't... randomly, want to shoot up a bunch of kids at a school... just 'cuz.

Even if there was a motive, there has to be some issue to drive someone over that edge where they think killing their bullies is a rational response.

[Dellis0991]

This shit is the reason I quit security and went back to school.

[Socialhealer]

Stop prescribing anti psychotics drugs and start prescribing marijuana, it will go a long way and not one will get shot. The real issue is all these insane prescription drugs they make, many do far more psychological damage than they fix.

American healthcare isnt about a cure it's about making money.

[schwank05]

Even if gun legislation were passed tomorrow it would take a long ass time (probably not in our life time) to confiscate the hundreds of millions of guns in the U.S.

And the fact of the matter is it would cause death, if you are going to try and steal from me I will defend it. Unless they are going to come in and give me what I purchased my guns for they are never going to come and take them. In the end law abiding citizens have no interest in going out and killing people, but guess what criminals and nut jobs do, if they want a gun they will get one regardless if they are legal or not. In the end if they are going to confiscate all the guns they will have to do it at gun point and then we will have to kill all of our other freedoms good bye. Who are you going to get to do the confiscation? the local police? I know them all they have the same guns I do, they are not going to steal from their friends and neighbors, the Military? I know a lot of them they are in the same boat.

[Resurgo]

Damn, these people have to feel like they're in the next Final Destination or something...

[muto]

It wasn't random. He planned it out.

I think he means more along the lines of random victims.

[ramayana1423]

This will be out of the news cycle and forgotten about in 3 days. Nothing will change, it will happen again. This is America.

[roboscorcher]

Motive is wayyyyyyyyyyy different. Motive would also mean you wouldn't... randomly, want to shoot up a bunch of kids at a school... just 'cuz.

If it's a private school with a majority race/religious affiliation, and the attacker is brainwashed with hate speech, no mental illness required.

[IIamaKing]

Mental health issues exist in all countries. Mass shootings don't. Also, most mass shooters and terrorists don't have mental illnesses.

Yeh...I will kindly disagree, if you are willing to kill mass amounts of people, you CLEARLY have a mental health issue. Mentally healthy people do not commit mass murder.

[qwerty123456]

And the fact of the matter is it would cause death, if you are going to try and steal from me I will defend it. Unless they are going to come in and give me what I purchased my guns for they are never going to come and take them. In the end law abiding citizens have no interest in going out and killing people, but guess what criminals and nut jobs do, if they want a gun they will get one regardless if they are legal or not. In the end if they are going to confiscate all the guns they will have to do it at gun point and then we will have to kill all of our other freedoms good bye. Who are you going to get to do the confiscation? the local police? I know them all they have the same guns I do, they are not going to steal from their friends and neighbors, the Military? I know a lot of them they are in the same boat.

They wouldn't technically steal em they would give you money for them just like eminent domain. You also going to try killing people if they need your land for a new Hardy's?

[muto]

Yeh...I will kindly disagree, if you are willing to kill mass amounts of people, you CLEARLY have a mental health issue. Mentally healthy people do not commit mass murder.

Looks like he did indeed have mental health issues.

“In April of this year, deputies were called to his house for a subject disturbing. They went to the house, they talked to him. He was somewhat irate. Acting a little irrationally. They called out our crisis intervention team, our mental health specialists who met with him, talked to him and cleared him. Didn't feel he was qualified to be taken under 5150. And he was left at that scene last April," the sheriff said.“

[petej0]

And the fact of the matter is it would cause death, if you are going to try and steal from me I will defend it. Unless they are going to come in and give me what I purchased my guns for they are never going to come and take them. In the end law abiding citizens have no interest in going out and killing people, but guess what criminals and nut jobs do, if they want a gun they will get one regardless if they are legal or not. In the end if they are going to confiscate all the guns they will have to do it at gun point and then we will have to kill all of our other freedoms good bye. Who are you going to get to do the confiscation? the local police? I know them all they have the same guns I do, they are not going to steal from their friends and neighbors, the Military? I know a lot of them they are in the same boat.

Let me first say (before you attack me back and without getting into the nitty gritty of my beliefs which I have stated many times in the Gun Control thread ), I am for second amendment rights.

Having said that, saying law abiding citizens have no interest in going out and killing people. Is a bit disingenuous, nobody know how they will feel 5, 10, 20 years down the road. Someone can be a perfectly normal, law abiding citizen at 25 and turn into a whole different person by 50. So what was once a law abiding person at 25 now maybe is easy to set off, maybe has developed anger issues, and now all of a sudden kills someone in a fit of road rage.

I guess what I am saying is everyone is a law abiding citizen until they arent.

[Independent voter]

The cops visited him a month or two ago because he was disturbing the peace. For some reason they had mental health professionals look at him, they released him cause they couldn't find enough to hold him.

If mental health people have to look at you, you should lose your guns. You know, you might be a danger to people.

So it's another mental health shooting.

[schwank05]

They wouldn't technically steal em they would give you money for them just like eminent domain. You also going to try killing people if they need your land for a new Hardy's?

Well I live 3 miles from a town of 600 people and 5 miles from a town of about 1500 people there are not going to be any Hardees going up near by. If they came in and offered me reasonable money hell yes Ill sell in a hearbeat, but if they just show up and say we are taking your shit, then they will have a fight on their hands.

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Let me first say (before you attack me back and without getting into the nitty gritty of my beliefs which I have stated many times in the Gun Control thread ), I am for second amendment rights.

Having said that, saying law abiding citizens have no interest in going out and killing people. Is a bit disingenuous, nobody know how they will feel 5, 10, 20 years down the road. Someone can be a perfectly normal, law abiding citizen at 25 and turn into a whole different person by 50. So what was once a law abiding person at 25 now maybe is easy to set off, maybe has developed anger issues, and now all of a sudden kills someone in a fit of road rage.

Right, but killing one person in a crime of passion is much different than planning and carrying out and killing 12+ Random people, that is what people are always in an uproar about. You can't have it both ways, there is no way to grant freedom's that our country was founded on and still holds dear and not have some collateral damage. In the end there is no good solution to the issue since I believe you need to be seriously messed up in the head to walk into a place and just start unloading on people.