Mega-Thread: Mueller investigation

[Belize]

Can we pop the champagne for 600 pages

[Bodakane]

Why exactly do you think Chinese care more about US money then their well-being as a country? Given that US is openly antagonistic to them.

Yeah, why would they care about that most of their money as a country comes form the US.....you can't be asking that stupid of a question.

The US isn't openly hostile towards them, Trump is. He'll be gone in 2 years or less.

Who helped put him in power again?

[Fugus]

I have been. . . but I'm still not seeing anything that brings down Trump. And they are going to get Don Jr for lying under oath. . . not colluding with the enemy.

We need a verifiable collusion charge. Its the only thing thats going to get his ass out of DC. Im totally losing faith in the system.

They already have that when Jr leaked emails about it. That was when they moved the goalpost to "Ok, we colluded but it wasn't illegal".

Also, we don't need to get Trump out of office, it is better is show everything he is doing and shove it into the voters faces and show them what the Republicans were protecting this whole time.

Drag them through the mud so much that only fringe loons want to associate with them, to the point a conservative considers being called a Republican even worse than being called a Liberal. Because at least the liberals aren't corrupt traitors and cheats.

Right now, their supporters keep trying to lie to themselves, you force them to accept the truth and it destroys the Republican party and you use that all against them in 2020.

Trump was their golden scapegoat when he took office to get the credit for all their fucked up shit, now turn him into the cross they have to bare for protecting him at the expense of this nation.

[cubby]

I have been. . . but I'm still not seeing anything that brings down Trump. And they are going to get Don Jr for lying under oath. . . not colluding with the enemy.

Every single person under Trump, including his own children, have been indicted, pled out, or sentenced to prison. But you think there won't be anything that ties directly to Trump, even with all that?

We need a verifiable collusion crime charge. Its the only thing thats going to get his ass out of DC. Im totally losing faith in the system.

Fixed that for you. There are multiple charges that Trump has already admitted to that can be moved upon. He's admitted obstruction twice now. And firing Sessions is #3, given Whitaker's appointment to the interim role.

[kaelleria]

The correct charge would be conspiracy... And we already have that in the emails from Don Jr.

[Beazy]

Also, we don't need to get Trump out of office, it is better is show everything he is doing and shove it into the voters faces and show them what the Republicans were protecting this whole time.

I dont trust his supporters to care man. They will just say "ok, so he sold us down the river to Russia, but BRO HE TELLS IT LIKE IT IS".

He needs to be locked up or at the least, removed from office.

[cubby]

I dont trust his supporters to care man. They will just say "ok, so he sold us down the river to Russia, but BRO HE TELLS IT LIKE IT IS".

He needs to be locked up or at the least, removed from office.

Lol ain't that the truth - his fans are beyond reality at this point. Agreed, and agreed.

And my bad earlier - I misunderstood a bit what you were getting at. You weren't denying malfeasance, just the lack of anything resulting from even someone proving it.

[Fugus]

I dont trust his supporters to care man. They will just say "ok, so he sold us down the river to Russia, but BRO HE TELLS IT LIKE IT IS".

He needs to be locked up or at the least, removed from office.

Trust me, I know more of his supporters than I care to think about, they believe nothing but lies and actively ignore any facts that disagrees with their fantasies with one of them wanting to shit talk and physically threaten you if you dare disrupt his world view with facts he doesn't like.

You push to the point that not even Fox News can hide it anymore, which they appear to be getting to slowly, and then they come around too greatly. The one thing they all seem to have in common is that is their only news source or close to it.

You ever force Fox to go against him, they turn as well.

I agree that Trump should to be locked up and I hope he does. But he doesn't need to get impeached for Mueller to be successful, especially if it forces the Republicans to own up to their shit.

I honestly hope that when the Democrats get back into power, they revive the fairness doctrine and actually force places that pretend to be News to be truthful and accurate and "New Commentary" would still qualify as news and be held to that same standard. And force any place pretending to be news that isn't news must have written and verbal disclaimers on their shows at the beginning, end and after commercials declaring that they don't have to be honest or accurate.

That right there would neuter Fox and those like them and destroy that echo chamber that all outlets seem to want to create.

Also move to ban gerrymandering.

[Shalcker]

Yeah, why would they care about that most of their money as a country comes form the US.....you can't be asking that stupid of a question.

A lot of things can change in this equation with time.

The US isn't openly hostile towards them, Trump is. He'll be gone in 2 years or less.

It wasn't that different under Obama really.

Don't you remember TTIP being specifically percieved as US counter to Chinese influence?

[Pendulous]

I dont trust his supporters to care man. They will just say "ok, so he sold us down the river to Russia, but BRO HE TELLS IT LIKE IT IS".

He needs to be locked up or at the least, removed from office.

My favorite, straight from my family: "you can't impeach someone just because you don't like them". I fail to see how ANYONE in modernized society doesn't know about all the indictments, all the guilty pleas, all the flipping, that pretty much all of the Trump Administration has done. And all the obstruction of justice Trump has basically admitted to.

[Bodakane]

A lot of things can change in this equation with time.

It wasn't that different under Obama really.

Don't you remember TTIP being specifically percieved as US counter to Chinese influence?

No, that isn't something that will change in time. The only way that changes is if we go away. But then, the money we spend won't be replaced and they'll still lose virtually everything.

Oh bullshit on the rest. Listen very carefully.....

I'm not Russian nor am I a Trump supporter, your propaganda and lies don't work on me. If you're going to lie to me, then lie to me about something I don't already know anything about. Don't get me wrong, I still won't believe you, but I won't be able argue it (and win).

[RaoBurning]

My favorite, straight from my family: "you can't impeach someone just because you don't like them". I fail to see how ANYONE in modernized society doesn't know about all the indictments, all the guilty pleas, all the flipping, that pretty much all of the Trump Administration has done. And all the obstruction of justice Trump has basically admitted to.

Nobody is as blind as the people who don't want to see. Sympathies for the family rhetoric, though. I'm not in a much different boat -_-

[Shalcker]

No, that isn't something that will change in time. The only way that changes is if we go away. But then, the money we spend won't be replaced and they'll still lose virtually everything.

The plan is well-known - to substitute your consumption as source for their growth with their own consumption.

It will happen eventually - after all, you are just 300 million, while they got more then a billion people; they don't have to match you to get ahead.

Oh bullshit on the rest. Listen very carefully.....

I'm not Russian nor am I a Trump supporter, your propaganda and lies don't work on me. If you're going to lie to me, then lie to me about something I don't already know anything about. Don't get me wrong, I still won't believe you, but I won't be able argue it (and win).

Well, try arguing your position then with more substance then "bullshit".

For example, article from 2016:
President Barack Obama himself has implied that the TTIP and the TPP are the Economic pillars’ of the U.S.’s rebalancing to Asia to deal with an increasingly assertive China that looks to distort the rules of the game and adhere to lower standards that preempt U.S. companies from emerging markets.

Former U.S. officials have even called the TTIP and the TPP a version of an economic NATO that complements the U.S. security position in Asia and limits Chinese material/military expansion. This support for the “twin trade pacts” has become even more essential now that China is shaping her own mega-economic plan with the New Silk Road OBOR strategy. To many pundits in Washington, China’s Silk Road economic diplomacy risks ostracizing U.S. businesses from the Eurasian economy – the largest in the world. Acting preeminently, U.S. led trade regionalism will lock China into an irreversible liberal global order and perpetuate U.S. geopolitical eminence.

...except, obviously, both TTIP and TTP didn't happen so those predictions failed to materialise.

[NYC17]

The plan is well-known - to substitute your consumption as source for their growth with their own consumption.

It will happen eventually - after all, you are just 300 million, while they got more then a billion people; they don't have to match you to get ahead.

Well, try arguing your position then with more substantce then "bullshit".

Just to be clear you, your statements, and your ignorance are in no way a standard that needs to be met.

You seem to have forgotten this. I'm happy to remind you.

[Bodakane]

The plan is well-known - to substitute your consumption as source for their growth with their own consumption.

It will happen eventually - after all, you are just 300 million, while they got more then a billion people; they don't have to match you to get ahead.

Well, try arguing your position then with more substance then "bullshit".

For example, article from 2016:
President Barack Obama himself has implied that the TTIP and the TPP are the Economic pillars’ of the U.S.’s rebalancing to Asia to deal with an increasingly assertive China that looks to distort the rules of the game and adhere to lower standards that preempt U.S. companies from emerging markets.

Former U.S. officials have even called the TTIP and the TPP a version of an economic NATO that complements the U.S. security position in Asia and limits Chinese material/military expansion. This support for the “twin trade pacts” has become even more essential now that China is shaping her own mega-economic plan with the New Silk Road OBOR strategy. To many pundits in Washington, China’s Silk Road economic diplomacy risks ostracizing U.S. businesses from the Eurasian economy – the largest in the world. Acting preeminently, U.S. led trade regionalism will lock China into an irreversible liberal global order and perpetuate U.S. geopolitical eminence.

...except, obviously, both TTIP and TTP didn't happen so those predictions failed to materialise.

They can't do that and stay communist. That is also well known.

As for the rest, calling your bullshit by name is all that is needed to be a valid argument. I mean....have you read your bullshit? Cause that bullshit is SOME bullshit.

For example, you said the US before Trump (which should be heretofore known as the Modern Age of Reason) was openly hostile to China and to back it up you post some bullshit that never actually happened and wasn't actually hostile by any definition of the word.

See, bullshit.

[Shalcker]

They can't do that and stay communist. That is also well known.

You're assuming they are communist in anything but name though right now.

As for the rest, calling your bullshit by name is all that is needed to be a valid argument. I mean....have you read your bullshit? Cause that bullshit is SOME bullshit.

For example, you said the US before Trump (which should be heretofore known as the Modern Age of Reason) was openly hostile to China and to back it up you post some bullshit that never actually happened and wasn't actually hostile by any definition of the word.

Right, so you wouldn't consider foreign moves limiting US military and material expansion to be inherently hostile?

[Omega10]

The plan is well-known - to substitute your consumption as source for their growth with their own consumption.

It will happen eventually - after all, you are just 300 million, while they got more then a billion people; they don't have to match you to get ahead.

Well, try arguing your position then with more substance then "bullshit".

For example, article from 2016:
President Barack Obama himself has implied that the TTIP and the TPP are the Economic pillars’ of the U.S.’s rebalancing to Asia to deal with an increasingly assertive China that looks to distort the rules of the game and adhere to lower standards that preempt U.S. companies from emerging markets.

Former U.S. officials have even called the TTIP and the TPP a version of an economic NATO that complements the U.S. security position in Asia and limits Chinese material/military expansion. This support for the “twin trade pacts” has become even more essential now that China is shaping her own mega-economic plan with the New Silk Road OBOR strategy. To many pundits in Washington, China’s Silk Road economic diplomacy risks ostracizing U.S. businesses from the Eurasian economy – the largest in the world. Acting preeminently, U.S. led trade regionalism will lock China into an irreversible liberal global order and perpetuate U.S. geopolitical eminence.

...except, obviously, both TTIP and TTP didn't happen so those predictions failed to materialise.

This I agree with. The Power Test for any developing country is: how much consumption can your population afford to buy.

Example: In the Diablo world, Blizzard is developing a mobile game designed for Chinese audiences ahead of a PC game designed for Europe and the US. Critics of this say things like "Blizzard is just doing this for the money. That is EXACTLY why they are doing this.

To "It will happen eventually" - well that is not ONE HUNDRED PERCENT clear. However, we are moving in that direction. The global measure of a nation's total wealth is PPP, where China is ahead of the US by about 10% or so. And increasing annually. US car companies make more Chinese cars than American cars - and they make them IN CHINA. The airplane market for the next decade will be dominated by new Chinese purchases, which effects both Boeing and Airbus. Their silk road plans are bringing Chinese investments to Asia, Europe, and even into Africa. The Chinese decision to replace US soybean purchases with Brazilian soybeans had a noticeable effect on US farmers, and presumably will have a similar effect on Brazilian farmers. China has a LOT of bullet trains. America - none. Chinese domination of the solar panel industry has just begun to benefit the Chinese in material ways. This will benefit them for a long time.


So, I agree that they definitely have a plan. And they are pursuing it aggressively. Trump suits their needs perfectly. As Trump turns countries AWAY from the US, China is there with open arms to fill the void.

[Shalcker]

And in all honesty discussing how any other country is hostile to China just seems silly because China is openly hostile to EVERYONE ELSE. They have zero respect for IP created abroad, are constantly a bad faith actor in trade and don't have a single country near them that is not wary of their overreach. People are not hostile to China, they are just defending themselves from Chinese hostility.

Everyone is defending their own interests, and sometimes that means hurting interests of other players.

No matter the reason though, such moves are neither positive nor neutral, so by exclusion they have to be hostile.

[Flarelaine]

I have been. . . but I'm still not seeing anything that brings down Trump. And they are going to get Don Jr for lying under oath. . . not colluding with the enemy.

We need a verifiable collusion charge. Its the only thing thats going to get his ass out of DC. Im totally losing faith in the system.

At this point, I'm not sure getting him out of DC requires actual criminal conviction. For one thing, whatever Mueller digs up must be overwhelmingly damning for the GOP to stop protecting him and the Senate seats they picked both help them protect him and, apparently, confirm to them they are on the right path.

On the other hand, the midterms forecast a bleak future for him in 2020. His success arguably hinged on breaking Hillary's "Blue Wall" in the Rust Belt. Now Dems have pretty much retaken those states. Trump can come back, of course, but now everyone can see his record instead of having to judge him on his promises. And there will be more and more his record uncovered.

[Breccia]

everyone can see his record instead of having to judge him on his promises.

Sorry, but, not true.

Trump's rabid fanbase already knows they've chosen a lying loser. They already know he either can't, or won't, follow through with his stated actions. The Contract with the American People was last seen stuck to the bottom of Trump's shoe as he boarded AF1. But Trump's rabid fanbase also refuses to admit they were wrong and made a mistake.

They will vote for him, again, not just having but accepting objective evidence they were duped. They'll do it anyhow because they feel they have no choice now, since admitting they were wrong is, in some cases literally, worse than death for them.

Trump will make more promises. His fan base won't believe him, but they'll claim they do and vote for him again. What needs to happen is more conservatives who are willing to say "enough is enough, these are not the core values I believe in" and vote for country over party. It shouldn't take many of those, but, we'll have to see if anyone besides @Skroe still counts as one.