Quality of life improvements vs "Authentiity"

[Kolvarg]

I think Ion made their current design philosphy pretty clear during the Classic panel.

The way they make these decisions is basically as follows:

Revert: If it affects gameplay balance, socialization, or game assets, they will revert it to the 1.12 standard, or manually recreate the 1.12 standard if need be.

Keep: If it can be accomplished via add-on or customer support, is an accessibility feature, or otherwise doesn't affect gameplay balance, socialization, or game assets, they will likely keep it.

Fix: If it causes perfomance issues and glitches or enables exploits, it will be fixed.


They're applying this philosphy to all bugs, features, and even things that simply resulted from technical limitations or developer oversights.


Examples we've seen or that they gave:

Revert:
- The 16 debuff limit was caused by technical limitations, but affected gameplay balance, so the debuff limit will be reverted to 16, even though the programmers at the time would have removed it if they could have.
- They discovered that the lanterns in Westfall glow white because an artist forgot to assign an appropriate texture, and in Classic missing textures were colored white. Rather than assigning an appropriate flame-colored texture, they are reverting texture to white because that's how it looked in Classic.
- The hour long delivery time on mail meant that players would sometimes choose to travel to each other and meet in person to trade because it would be quicker than using the mail, which encourage socialization, so they will revert the system to having the delay.

Keep:
- Colorblind options are an accessibility feature for players with a disability and will be kept.
- Being able to trade Soulbound items after they were looted was something that could be accomplished with help from Customer Support, so the two hour trade window on Soulbound items will be kept, to lessen the burden on CS, as players can sort it out themselves.
- UI improvements such as modern raid frames could be recreated for Classic using add-ons, so they will be kept.

^ this. Really good post that explains very well what they communicated at BlizzCon.

I think it's the best approach they can take. It's actually more "no changes" that I thought they would go, and I salute them for that. They also did a great job explaining it, explaining the issues they had and their thought process. Overall I think the WoW panels were very positive this Blizzcon, and they did great!

[Seranthor]

Greeting good people of the internet. On this topic i would like to tackle a rather controversial idea, that of quality gaming.

During vanilla i was playing Horde mage, and i remember right before every raid i would have to make waters/bread for 40 people. Granted in this task i wasn't alone, however that required me to be almost 30 minute beforehand and casting conjure water/bread until the raid starts. Original as it may be, this was my worst time during a raid. Now that may have been only me, and there would be an addon, or a macro and i am making a fool of myself but hopefuly that is not the case Later in TBC they added the mana biscuits ritual which was a huge improvement

Similarly, warlocks had to farm shards ( i don't know how much difference that made because i haven't played a warlock).

Basicaly what i am trying to say in this post is that, even though i am exited that i might get to relive an aspect of my childhood through this game ( the doupt derives from the limitation of daily time, not doupt in the concept), i believe lessons that the developers made and made our lifes easier whithout altering the core gameplay should at the very least be considered despite what J Allen Brack told that his compass isto create the most authentic experiance possible.

I would really like to hear your thoughts on the matter and please be kind to this old timer thinking of going through the dark portal on his monitor

Vanilla should be vanilla... Folks should embrace all the good AND the bad that was vanilla... shards, attunements, spell ranks, ammo, all the glorious things that made vanilla vanilla.

[Kolvarg]

I dont get the people that are against class balance changes.

If I had to guess, no one trusts them to do a great job. Because honestly it's basically impossible to balance it perfectly, especially with the nuances of Vanilla where basically you want some classes because of utility, buffs, etc, and not just sheer dps. It's very hard to quantify that, and so it's simply best if they don't even touch it.

Because if they do, don't fool yourself believing it would suddenly become that every spec does amazing at Classic Raids. They wouldn't, and people would still try to always get whichever classes/specs they perceive as "best", and avoid whichever classes/specs they perceive as "worst".

And then you'd also have people who remembered doing great dps as class/spec X back in the days, and now they leveled to 60 once again and their class/spec X is not as good anymore.. it's honestly a recipe for disaster, sadly. I do think that in today's day, with a more mature community, and with more knowledge of the game, the classes and the bosses, there will be more less-restrictive guilds, and even specs which back in the day were considered as not "raid worthy" will be able to join as well and do perfectly fine at downing bosses.

[Cyrops]

So remove the debuff limit also???...

That would be insane buff to raid damage, most likely you would have to increase boss health 3-5 times.

[czarek]

The best solution is to balance the game between classic and retail but this is not goin to happen. Im up for adding the best simple things into vanilla that just improve annnoying things. Makeing water was annoy but at least that push ppl to interact with each other and this is one of major vanilla advantage.

[Deleted]

I dont get the people that are against class balance changes.
Honestly if they got all classes/specs able to perform their respective roles, in a balanced fashion in vanilla, it can only be a good thing.
Do I want to HAVE to play a Mage, Rogue or Warrior to be competitive in dps? No I do not.

Game is more than just raids...if i had a genie lamp, id wish for people to realize that more than i would want world peace.

You can't balance something without breaking it in another aspect. Give hunters equal DPS to warriors/rogues, guess what happens then, you just made the best leveling/solo class disgustingly overpowered in these aspects, and then there is PvP, which hunters are great at...do you start to understand what happens now?

You can't balance this game because it's more of an RPG, and starting to tinker with balance will ruin it. Every class excels at something, and that shouldn't be touched.

Also stop believing the propaganda that no one will take you, even the elitist guilds will eventually take you, while most of the guilds will be happy if they can even fill their 40 man spots, and then you need to fill them with attuned people.

Maybe you should also check retail, the game NEVER changed and will NEVER change in one simple aspect: Hard pushing HARDcore guilds will ALWAYS bench some specs. It is happening now in high M+ dungeons and mythic raids, and will happen till the end of time. The game was and will never be balanced. The funny thing is that Vanilla in that aspect beats BFA because your "weak" ret paladin, druid and hunter excel at other things, things that no longer exist in retail.

I wish you people can some day realize why you should not touch classic balance, but i really doubt that day will come...

[Speedlance]

lfg system yes plz. i dont the majority have time scout for tank 2-3 hours per day.

[Heathy]

I wouldn't care much about mages getting the mage table, rather than cranking out food manually, but i think that time consumption stuff was part of classic.

ill be honest i boosted a lock alt a week or so ago and levelled it to 120, demonology is kinda fun to play i think the imp army is cute, but it saddens me that I now know 3 classes are functionally identical, locks,retri palas and rogues all use a combo point system :/ being someone who usually sticks to 1 char, seeing this made me sad. the last time i played a lock it had soul shard farming now its basically a rogue. i can't tell you if its 'better' back then but maybe you had more control over your resource, now its like pfft. In a lot of ways i think this classic revamp will be too time consuming but deep down i yearn for class identity again.

[Akka]

Personally, I think a lot of people have forgotten how aggravating some of the things in classic were. They definitely learned from their mistakes... I mean, who wants to WALK to every dungeon so you could go inside?

I do, and it's one of the main reason Vanilla was great. I think lots of people manage to play pserver and have a very good idea of how "aggravating" things are, so the usual "you think you do but you don't" can go fuck themselves.

[Fascinate]

These types of threads should just be insta closed by the mods, its very clear the direction the devs want to take with classic and none of this is up for debate for obvious reasons.

[sam86]

It is simple : I want to relieve my childhood memories, nothing else
Half of QoL will ruin that, I have many retro games right now and I don't want them upgraded, I enjoy playing them as they are
The same applies for wow, trust me i remember how many horrible stuff were in wow, how slow lvling was and corpse run take ages to dungeon like Deadmines and how many times I lost my way until i memorized the caves, but I still want that
And I remember how annoying was soul farming when u log, and how u must kill first mob next to camp as soon u land from flying to get soulshard for VW, then another mob to get healthstone, before u start move to kill mobs, or how - as priest - solo quests is near impossible, and how gear give + heal and if u want to do some normal non-elite quests u either ask friend to team up/help u with, or respec shadow and still be slow because ur gear is +heal
But those 'limits', those retard aspects of game is what reminds me of my childhood, I want to feel alive again, of time I was happy, remove all those retarded stuff and give us QoL that were introduced from 2.3+ will kill those memories, since i didn't do that when i was 18 years old

- - - Updated - - -

I do, and it's one of the main reason Vanilla was great. I think lots of people manage to play pserver and have a very good idea of how "aggravating" things are, so the usual "you think you do but you don't" can go fuck themselves.

i remember one time a guy had to log on his high lvl mage to escort us to RFK (the boar dungeon in barrens) from Theramore on his 60% mount while we were all walking, then we summoned him there
so that's another memory that i can't see in current wow, because u can ride mounts at lvl1 in first place

[Heathy]

I do, and it's one of the main reason Vanilla was great. I think lots of people manage to play pserver and have a very good idea of how "aggravating" things are, so the usual "you think you do but you don't" can go fuck themselves.

I don't think that way, my concern is more down to longevity but classic wow by itself can't survive forever in a vacuum. sure it might be fun for a couple years, but then what? can it actually maintain a consistent flow of players that also manage to find a place in the game and make progress or, after a while will it simply be an elitist ghost town with no new guilds being created and no one recruiting into their little elite-classic club.

because largely the way I see it after some time has passed whoever is left is going to have to create content and if no one is creating content. well. gg classic. I can't see it lasting indefinitely. perhaps the first handful of waves fair ok but after a while the rate of new players joining vs the amount of established guilds is going to reach a breaking point, you'll have plenty of folks who can't progress and simply stop playing. obviously not everyone who does hop in there will want to raid but even a good amount of them may not find a guild to raid with, i'd imagine a large part of wanting to actually replay it would be for the raiding. at least that is largely what is going to be progression at 60.

i'm not convinced ppl 'think they do but don't' i'm just curious as to how long it'll take before the novelty wares off and thats that. again i know a lot of ppl don't even care about raiding and a good amount of ppl who want to play classic seem to want to do so for the world/quests and long removed game mechanics. I don't know how long those 3 things are going to provide a consistent flow of players into it though. not when there are f2p mmos today that ARE better than what classic was at its peak.

ppl seem to get all pissed at this whole concept of thinking you want something and then finding out you don't i guess blizzard will have the last laugh though, as i don't see this being the second coming of christ, maybe the last meal. for example, if i were to play classic again i wouldn't play a healer, why? because the game is objectively better today from a healing PoV, you want to be a healer? it wasn't as fun in classic as it is today. it wasn't as mechanically deep, it wasn't as varied, it didn't require half as much reflex or skill. if ppl aren't being challenged they simply ain't going to stick with it. in the same sense that you don't run the raid finder once you out gear it or if you do its purely for lols. you know its not going to challenge you so.. I generally try to tackle content that is challenging, I tend to avoid content that has become trivial unless i'm really looking for a t-mog.

personally I think it could go either way but I think it will boom and then quickly drop off as folks realise they can't commit to it. and for the 100s of things that were changed since then. you'll have your competitive guilds racing for new 'world firsts' on these new realms. once they get bored and move on what happens then.

it sure sounds like it could be fun but i've enjoyed playing wow as a continual thing, being stuck in one content cycle forever i'm not sure that can last.

I remember jumping into EQ super late not that many years ago and manage to get a cleric to like 75, then the grind got super painful and i gave up, I doubt i would have been able to find a guild that i could do large group content with. effectively i was just playing an mmo solo with no real prospect to see the end game. this is what it will be like for classic and if ppl aren't creating content, pugs/world pvp/server events whatever, then it stands to reason that its not going to provide what ppl seek from it. or that the time commitment will be too great, unless there are several thousand new generation neck beards waiting in the wings to bring back those no life days. maybe on a person to person basis, the 'you think you do but don't' quote doesn't work but I think with enough time and on a broader scale, the game will simply fizzle, launch boom, then slow steady fizzle.

playing an mmo in general is a commitment, its something you plan on doing for a long time. but this idea doesn't really have much on offer, everything has been theorycrafted, its difficult for me to see what is going to keep ppl playing classic for more than 3-4 years, what about 10 years from now. I'm sure retail will still get expansions but if classic doesn't, can it actually maintain a consistent player base on zero content updates. i guess we'll find out.

[Bulion]

I don't think that way, my concern is more down to longevity but classic wow by itself can't survive forever in a vacuum. sure it might be fun for a couple years, but then what? can it actually maintain a consistent flow of players that also manage to find a place in the game and make progress or, after a while will it simply be an elitist ghost town with no new guilds being created and no one recruiting into their little elite-classic club.

because largely the way I see it after some time has passed whoever is left is going to have to create content and if no one is creating content. well. gg classic. I can't see it lasting indefinitely. perhaps the first handful of waves fair ok but after a while the rate of new players joining vs the amount of established guilds is going to reach a breaking point, you'll have plenty of folks who can't progress and simply stop playing. obviously not everyone who does hop in there will want to raid but even a good amount of them may not find a guild to raid with, i'd imagine a large part of wanting to actually replay it would be for the raiding. at least that is largely what is going to be progression at 60.

i'm not convinced ppl 'think they do but don't' i'm just curious as to how long it'll take before the novelty wares off and thats that. again i know a lot of ppl don't even care about raiding and a good amount of ppl who want to play classic seem to want to do so for the world/quests and long removed game mechanics. I don't know how long those 3 things are going to provide a consistent flow of players into it though. not when there are f2p mmos today that ARE better than what classic was at its peak.

ppl seem to get all pissed at this whole concept of thinking you want something and then finding out you don't i guess blizzard will have the last laugh though, as i don't see this being the second coming of christ, maybe the last meal. for example, if i were to play classic again i wouldn't play a healer, why? because the game is objectively better today from a healing PoV, you want to be a healer? it wasn't as fun in classic as it is today. it wasn't as mechanically deep, it wasn't as varied, it didn't require half as much reflex or skill. if ppl aren't being challenged they simply ain't going to stick with it. in the same sense that you don't run the raid finder once you out gear it or if you do its purely for lols. you know its not going to challenge you so.. I generally try to tackle content that is challenging, I tend to avoid content that has become trivial unless i'm really looking for a t-mog.

personally I think it could go either way but I think it will boom and then quickly drop off as folks realise they can't commit to it. and for the 100s of things that were changed since then. you'll have your competitive guilds racing for new 'world firsts' on these new realms. once they get bored and move on what happens then.

it sure sounds like it could be fun but i've enjoyed playing wow as a continual thing, being stuck in one content cycle forever i'm not sure that can last.

I remember jumping into EQ super late not that many years ago and manage to get a cleric to like 75, then the grind got super painful and i gave up, I doubt i would have been able to find a guild that i could do large group content with. effectively i was just playing an mmo solo with no real prospect to see the end game. this is what it will be like for classic and if ppl aren't creating content, pugs/world pvp/server events whatever, then it stands to reason that its not going to provide what ppl seek from it. or that the time commitment will be too great, unless there are several thousand new generation neck beards waiting in the wings to bring back those no life days. maybe on a person to person basis, the 'you think you do but don't' quote doesn't work but I think with enough time and on a broader scale, the game will simply fizzle, launch boom, then slow steady fizzle.

playing an mmo in general is a commitment, its something you plan on doing for a long time. but this idea doesn't really have much on offer, everything has been theorycrafted, its difficult for me to see what is going to keep ppl playing classic for more than 3-4 years, what about 10 years from now. I'm sure retail will still get expansions but if classic doesn't, can it actually maintain a consistent player base on zero content updates. i guess we'll find out.

And still, 12 years after Vanilla ended, there are private servers with 7-10k players always online that play Vanilla...so I guess you don't have to worry about population. Also if people decide to play 1 year or 3-4 years of Classic...and not 10...where's the problem with that ? I personally know a lot of people that actively play on private servers Vanilla, just because they hate playing the modern WoW (which is their choice and I can respect it). I mostly play the retail WoW these days, because I cba to play private servers due to bugs and general instability, but when WoW classic hits live, I will definitely play it more than retail (if not exclusively) because modern WoW is too ...how do I put this lightly...bad at being a community.

[Vaelorian]

What is authentiity?

Also: How does one go through the dark portal when you are playing Classic?

PS: I do hope that there will be a macro for this water thing indeed.

[Natylyaz]

Vanilla should be vanilla... Folks should embrace all the good AND the bad that was vanilla... shards, attunements, spell ranks, ammo, all the glorious things that made vanilla vanilla.

This is impressive how this lie seems to be the truth to some people.

Nobody at the time was saying
1) «This game is so awesome because I have to spend 30 minutes conjuring food for my mates and opening a trade window for each of them»
2) «This game is so awesome because as a paladin I can spend my time refreshing blessings or staying out of combat to rez the noobs who stood in fire»
3) «This game is so awesome because after having spent one hour forming a group for Scholomance and travelling there, I forgot the key and I now have to travel back to Undercity»

The game was glorious DESPITE these braindead flaws, I loved the game, but it would have been MASSIVELY more glorious with
1) Conjuring a table
2) Longer Paladin blessings
3) The keyring (this one was great flavour, a shame they removed it, claiming it's glorious to have you bag filled with 10 keys instead of a keyring is stupid)

[Seranthor]

This is impressive how this lie seems to be the truth to some people.

Nobody at the time was saying
1) «This game is so awesome because I have to spend 30 minutes conjuring food for my mates and opening a trade window for each of them»
2) «This game is so awesome because as a paladin I can spend my time refreshing blessings or staying out of combat to rez the noobs who stood in fire»
3) «This game is so awesome because after having spent one hour forming a group for Scholomance and travelling there, I forgot the key and I now have to travel back to Undercity»

The game was glorious DESPITE these braindead flaws, I loved the game, but it would have been MASSIVELY more glorious with
1) Conjuring a table
2) Longer Paladin blessings
3) The keyring (this one was great flavour, a shame they removed it, claiming it's glorious to have you bag filled with 10 keys instead of a keyring is stupid)

What 'lie' did I tell? You want vanilla, you should absolutely get vanilla. All of it, the good and the bad, period. Elsewise you dont really want vanilla.
I've not strayed from that position. I'm sorry that your reading comprehension is so poor.

[stevenho]

A change like this seems harmless, but it changes the dynamics of the game.
You don't have to spend x amount of time distributing food. You can clear the raid faster due to that. If they give in to mages, warlocks will be next. Why would they have to farm shards in the open world while mages had it easier by just pressing 1 button in 1 place and they STILL got QoL improvement? There are more "harmless" improvements that could be made, but when they are all added up, the game is no longer vanilla but some reimagining of it with modern gameplay baked in.

[Natylyaz]

What 'lie' did I tell? You want vanilla, you should absolutely get vanilla. All of it, the good and the bad, period. Elsewise you dont really want vanilla.
I've not strayed from that position. I'm sorry that your reading comprehension is so poor.

I personally don't want anything, I was pointing out your delusions that the flaws (in your words: the glorious things) of the game were what made Vanilla Vanilla.

[Deleted]

There will be no authentic Vanilla experience. It's impossible.

[Seranthor]

I personally don't want anything, I was pointing out your delusions that the flaws (in your words: the glorious things) of the game were what made Vanilla Vanilla.

Sarcasm lad... Sarcasm... I find those things horrible reminders of vanilla.