Is ret actually that bad

[Poshadin]

I do fine as ret, I'll clear 10+s in time. Average about 12k through an M+. ST bosses around 10-11k. Trash can burst up to 40-50k depending.

Won't push the numbers like a DH or rogue will, but unless you're pushing 13+'s it really doesn't matter.

[Fargus]

They're one of the lowest specs in Mythics overall.

Shit AoE and mid-range ST. A "design decision" according to the Blizzard devs. These idiots have no clue, they further dumb down the classes and make more rng with the Azerite system. I don't see why people even bother, Ret has continually been abused for a long time and people have this optimistic "it'll get better, it'll get better" viewpoint. It won't. Not with these incompetent devs who never listen to player feedback. Just re-roll if you want to actually be decent in Mythics or high end keys.

[Wrecktangle]

im a 382 ret and im like 10th in dps in my guild when i get a 99 parse, we fucking suck.

I'd be curious to see your logs.

I'm just a filthy heroic raider these days, but I'm generally #1 in my guild (not a good measure of Ret, I'm just an ex top 20 raider playing with 2 competitive players, and 10+ bads).

You could be 10th, but if the spread isn't terrible and their %'s are also similar (i.e. 90%+) it's hardly the end of the world.

Sounds more like your guild has great DPS.

Irrelevant to the discussion.

a 99 parse essentially means that he is outputting as much DPS as the class is mathematically capable of, doing that and being in 10th means the class has a performance issue at the design level.

Yep - but like I asked Phil, I'd be curious what the actual spread looks like as that'll share more info.

They're one of the lowest specs in Mythics overall.

Shit AoE and mid-range ST. A "design decision" according to the Blizzard devs. These idiots have no clue, they further dumb down the classes and make more rng with the Azerite system. I don't see why people even bother, Ret has continually been abused for a long time and people have this optimistic "it'll get better, it'll get better" viewpoint. It won't. Not with these incompetent devs who never listen to player feedback. Just re-roll if you want to actually be decent in Mythics or high end keys.

Ugh I hate M+ this expansion. The lack of cleave/AOE numerically hurts, but not even that it just FEELS tremendously awful.

They could take the easy way out and give us WoA reducing CD on HoPo spent (a la DH/War), they could buff consecration/baseline it and build in a HoPo over time effect (Liadrin Ring) or have it make BoJ AOE while standing in it (or transform to DH while in it), etc.

[Vintersol]

After years of playing ret paladin (started this tiny sucker in late classic) i finally made the step and kicked it in the trash can after switching to my rogue. Compared to ret, my rogue feels super awesome and i can't play ret anymore after that.

[Schmilblick]

Boring gameplay and super limited mobility, otherwise, it's fine.

[Nfinitii]

Thanks again for the replies.

I guess I'll level a Warrior instead then, Warrior and Paladin were my top two picks for a Zandalari, but after reading the comments here I'm definitely leaning more towards Warrior now.

I’d say the biggest draw for warrior is it’s mobility, which is Paladins bigger negative. But it’s nice to have heals as paladin, it’s almost impossible to die as a paladin. I don’t like arms but fury is fun to play. It’s sucks b/c when I’m not my warrior I wish I had the heals and defensives of paladin, but steed is such trash, wish I had charge or heroic leap as paladin.

[Fargus]

Boring gameplay and super limited mobility, otherwise, it's fine.

In LFR and low key dungeons, sure, it's fine. Try doing higher tier content with one and say it's fine.

[Faesroll]

After years of playing ret paladin (started this tiny sucker in late classic) i finally made the step and kicked it in the trash can after switching to my rogue. Compared to ret, my rogue feels super awesome and i can't play ret anymore after that.

I have the same feeling. I swapped to a DH after dreading it for a long time, knowing that if I did I would hate my paladin. I finally did it, now I hate my paladin.

[Johnmatrix]

Ret is fine. I have played it since Wotlk and this iteration is not the best Ret has ever been but its far from bad. People are just so dramatic.

I, too, have played ret since late TBC and have experiencedhigh lvl pve and pvp through these years. I've played with my two friends, warrior and rogue, since the beginning. Those two classes have mechanically been better for a lot of stuff, cleaving, mobility etc, but we have always had pretty fair competition who tops dps in raids or dungeons. In Bfa we have mostly done +10-12 mythic key runs, and i haven't felt this bad in years. Ret performance is so much behind, that there is no chance to even be close to outlaw and fury in overall charts. Bosses you can beat and top trash packs with wings + WoA, but sustained aoe is just a joke. Divine storm is way undertuned and we have nothing for 2 target cleaving. There has not been time in recent years, where my specs performance has been so much weaker than my friends, that i can't even compete...

[Deleted]

Well if u want to DPS mainly and progress high end content as dps and specifically as melee dps i can give you at least 3 choices of classes different than paladin and at least 6 specs that not only got more interesting gameplay but also feel more rewarding and every raidleader/melee officer would prefer over a ret paladin. If you raid at a level where it doesnt really matter or your raid team may be in need of extra healing or some offtanking from time to time during progress then ret paladin can be a viable option. But to be fair i would be quite surprised to find any half serious guild trying to recruit a dps paladin specifically.

[Mashanerz]

Single target ret DPS is decent, their cleave is mediocre, they provide alright utility, but this can be fairly CD dependent.

I don't think anyone can stress enough just how bad their mobility is though, I got my pally to around ilvl 380 pretty quick and started playing alts, DH and Rogue, now whenever I go back to my pally I feel like I have a slowing debuff, it's incredibly frustrating.

[fmercan]

their cleave is mediocre

what cleave lol

[Nightheart]

People make things sound worse then they are. and should not be taken serious. Those players that say "Ret is Bad" Need to get good and play better. Having mained Ret for almost 11 years now, MY issue with Ret is the fact that.. Our mobility sucks ass! If you move at all, your dps is gonna be effected and that's how ret has been since mop. Ret is good if you are standing still. But if you gotta move? Whelp, your boned.

Edit: And there are a few other issues with Ret, such as cleave, but ret since we got Holy Power, has been more focused on Single target. Back in Wrath... God I miss being able to use Divine storm without having to use Holy Power... Was amazing. Back when Rets could cleave. I mean we can kinda cleave now.. but it's not as good other classes. Ret has it's goods and bads, but it's NO WHERE near as bad as people claim. Another issue I have seen through out the years of Maining and raiding as a Ret pally, is the fact that there are SO many fucking Ret pallies. Good luck getting a main spot competing against all the other retties.

[ImEveryCliche]

Ret ST is midpack to decent. Cleave/AoE are lacking a lot. If you're planning to do anything semi competitive save yourself some pain and respec/reroll

[chase_the_mofo]

Prot paladin heals more than some healers

[Dawon]

It's a onetrick pony (nothingnothing, TV!!, nothingnothing... repeat). Dull class and made for people that dont want engaging combat I can only assume. That said, they do incredible dmg in Uldir as fights are decent suited for them and as a ret, you'll rarely be put on bitch duty (due to your crappy mobility) so you can happily dps all the time and "top charts" while others are carrying orbs and such! :P

[Eon Drache]

It's a onetrick pony (nothingnothing, TV!!, nothingnothing... repeat). Dull class and made for people that dont want engaging combat I can only assume. That said, they do incredible dmg in Uldir as fights are decent suited for them and as a ret, you'll rarely be put on bitch duty (due to your crappy mobility) so you can happily dps all the time and "top charts" while others are carrying orbs and such! :P

At best in Uldir ret is decent. And on all of the end fights ret is absolute trash (Fetid - G'huun)

[Incarnia]

I want to like my Ret Paladin but I don't. It's just frustrating being so god damn slow, and I really feel that the gcd changes in combination with how much more difficult it is to keep decent haste has really hurt the spec. It comes off as clunky when you play it, and the mobility on top of that, man, not fun.
We do got some ok utilities for m+ (cleanse poison, group aoe heal, bop, blessing of freedom, lay on hands to mention the most impactfull ones) which can be useful to the group depending on your setup, but since our cleave/aoe is so bad (among other flaws), that when you do higher keys? Well, at least I've felt like I'm dragging the group down.... I never felt that during Legion m+ and God knows rets wasn't in any shape or form op during that expansion.

Soloing shit becomes easy as a ret tho, esp with a bit of gear, but I suspect you aren't interested in only soloing world content

[Kalisandra]

They could take the easy way out and give us WoA reducing CD on HoPo spent (a la DH/War), they could buff consecration/baseline it and build in a HoPo over time effect (Liadrin Ring) or have it make BoJ AOE while standing in it (or transform to DH while in it), etc.

A start would be giving us back Hammer of the Righteous so we have an AoE builder, and making it something we want to hit at 3+ targets. Righteous Verdict needs to proc from DS and buff DS. DS needs buffing so that it's worth using at 2+ targets, not the 3+ that it is now (or make HotR used for 2+ targets - anything to give us something to cleave with).

Ideally we'd get something like the empowered Divine Storm of WoD, so we have something interesting to do in our rotation.

The overall problem with Ret is that Legion took away something we've had since Cata - decent damage out to 20-30 yards. At the same time Ret lost a chunk of mobility. Now, in BfA they've taken away our cleave and AoE as well - something we've been strong in since WotLK. At the same time our defensives have been weakened, and our off-healing as well (though these are better than in Legion). Compared to Legion (and earlier) our rotation has been slowed down and large gaps put in it. So, in terms of game play the rotation is boring with annoying gaps in it, and the toolkit is seriously lacking in both PvE and PvP.

Now, in terms of damage output, at the beginning of BfA we were quite strong, landing big hits and putting out serious hurt, single target (AoE sucked right from the start though). However, because there's no synergy between abilities and talents, and also none between secondary stats, our damage scales really badly. You can see it quite clearly if you go to warcraftlogs and look at raid DPS or spec rankings over time - Ret starts high-average and just doesn't go anywhere while other specs overtake it.

Basically, Ret's in a bad place, and without some re-tuning (ideally it'd be re-design, but that's not happening, I reckon) it'll just get worse and worse.

EDIT: Oh, yeah. LAst week I looked at raider.io's top100 this and that. Not a good measure of reality, but a good measure of who lpayers are likely to take or not take in pugs when sttempting m+10 or more. The top 100 DPS was 85% DHs, Rogues, Druids (Boomies), and Mages. Locks and Hunters were most of the rest. There were no Pallies, Priests, or Shamans.

For the top 100 tanks, about 3/4trs were DKs, with DHs, Pallies, and Monks filling the rest. Warriors and Druids were almost non-existent.

For healers, Druids and Priests were 70%, Monk and Pallies were most of the rest.

So, level a Pally to tank m+ and maybe raids, or to heal raids (assuming your raid is missing one - serious raids don't need two hPal), but don't bother with Ret for serious content.

I've mained a Ret since late BC (with an Elemental/Resto Shaman as secondary since late LK). As you'd expect I'm delighted with current class/spec balance and design. Honestly, it's as bad as I've ever experienced.

[Ravingmad]

Ret is ok. Its competitive in Single Target (great opening) but lacks in cleave and strong AoE (we have consistent AoE only, medium AoE burst), but we'll never compete vs pure burst AoE. We have no Dots, so you dont get passive damage. Wings are too short IMO, theres an Artefact Trait coming that will increase the 20 to 24 sec, I'll take it.

We have the "strongest" defensive CD in the game (bubble) but that's about it. No -% reduct damage except physical (talent) but excepted PvP/Questing theres no real utility in raid. Yes, theres the shield... but you want to use it to DPS... but that's pretty much our only damage mitigation. Unless someone dies, you get a nice -30% damage for 10sec. Word of Glory, even if its a DPS lost, is very strong when used properly. Lay on hand can save someone, but its tempting not to use it... so that you can get the Retribution buff.... haha! :P But during progression its gold. Our mobility is a little lackluster, which can be frustrating in some fights.

We hit "hard", but slow. The rotation is quite simple, but feels slow.

Overall its not a bad class at all. Ive been RetPal since WotLK, Ive seen all the changes, and I can still do good in raid. If you like the RP aspect of it, the assist it can gives and the fact that you can also Tank and Heal (specs), go for it. The only problem is that most classes do better then us in DPS.