M+ increasingly toxic and elitest

[ydraw]

At the end of the day to many players, myself included, it's all about time efficiency. I don't have the time to devote an extra 20 minutes to an optimized group.

The thing is it takes no time at all to choose a DH over a warrior. Any group you make, you're going to have 15 DHs app to anyway. There are no shortage of the meta classes applying to your groups, which makes it incredibly difficult to get an invite as a non-meta class.

[Zyky]

The thing is it takes no time at all to choose a DH over a warrior. Any group you make, you're going to have 15 DHs app to anyway. There are no shortage of the meta classes applying to your groups, which makes it incredibly difficult to get an invite as a non-meta class.

I'm very much aware, but that's the issue Blizzard caused when they removed a shit ton of utility from classes to try and get away from homogenization. For example: At best a Warrior has a single target stun(that they have to talent for), Temp Health Shout for the group, a single target snare(that costs resource), and a fear(that you cant use because it pulls extra groups)...where as Demon Hunter, regardless of if it considered meta or not; has an AoE stun, the choice between strong self healing or an immunity, a purge, the best mobility in the game, a free AoE snare, vision against stealth mobs(which helps in certain dungeons, and a CC. Meanwhile Warrior had a good AoE stun back for the last few expansions that just got removed 'because homogenization'.

They halfassed what they did, yet again, but the players are the one suffering. Reality is you can't blame other players because of Blizzard and their garbage management of resources and development time.

[ThrashMetalFtw]

I did all my highest keys in the last quaking week with only meeles and a monk heal. Even chested a +16 boralus. Was it harder? Yes. Did it work regardless? Yes it did. Apart from the first boss in Boralus I for myself think that tripple melee is the meta comp. But I see myself pretty alone on this.

I have to say that utility is almost useless without damage output though. Why should I invite a shadow with all his tools when I can just invite a meta class and don't have to use any fancy stuff and just melt the mobs.

The fact that some people unironically think the issue with Shadow is that our dmg is low, just proves how retarded the entire "follow the meta" crowd is.

Seriously, Shadow can keep up with Boomkins and Aff Locks (our direct competition) without any problem in M+, ST is a bit low, but we make up for that with better AoE than the 2 others. Shadow is shit in M+ BECAUSE dmg is the only thing we bring. We don't have any utility at all.

Meta comps are irrelevant on anything lower than 15-16 keys btw. Ppl who decline the "non meta" specs for 10s, probably don't understand why the meta specs are good in high keys in the first place... (hint, it's not their dmg).

- - - Updated - - -

I mean, I get where you're coming from, but you have to look at it from others perspective as well.

In the specific situation you mentioned with the Warrior over a DH, yes Demon Hunters are vastly superior to Warriors. It makes the run faster and easier to have an AoE stun, an extra CC, strong self sustain, insane AoE, and strong ST. Now that's assuming both the DH and the Warrior were same IL and same .io(yes .io accounts for some of it). Personally I only invite people to my groups who have a certain level of raiding completed or high keys completed within the time limit, I don't look at overall score, I look at "has this person done this 10 in time more than once" if not I look at their raiding progress, if they have bad scores but high Mythic progression I still take them.

That's the thing though. Picking a DH over a Warrior won't speed up your 10 key. Warriors are extremely competitive if dmg is the only thing you care about. DHs are good in HIGH keys because all their utilty allows you to survive againt hard trash pulls that you would probably wipe on if you had a Warrior instead.

Same with Shadow (or any other non-meta caster). Picking a Mage or Boomkin over a Shadow won't speed up your 10, because Shadow can put out just as much, if not more dmg than those classes. Meta classes are good in high keys because their utility allows you to survive stuff that would otherwise kill you. In 10s you can survive just fine without any utility at all, so your setup is irrelevant.

There are multiple classes that have a higher dmg potential than the current meta classes, but they aren't used because they lack utility. And said utilty is irrelevant to 99% of the playerbase, because they will never push their M+ keys so high that said utility starts to matter. Most ppl are failing their keys because they fail at mechanics or don't know how to play their class properly, not because of their setup.

[Kaibhan]

This sort of toxicity is inevitable. Repeatable boring content with time constraints begs for min/max attitudes.

[Zyky]

The fact that some people unironically think the issue with Shadow is that our dmg is low, just proves how retarded the entire "follow the meta" crowd is.

Seriously, Shadow can keep up with Boomkins and Aff Locks (our direct competition) without any problem in M+, ST is a bit low, but we make up for that with better AoE than the 2 others. Shadow is shit in M+ BECAUSE dmg is the only thing we bring. We don't have any utility at all.

Meta comps are irrelevant on anything lower than 15-16 keys btw. Ppl who decline the "non meta" specs for 10s, probably don't understand why the meta specs are good in high keys in the first place... (hint, it's not their dmg).

- - - Updated - - -



That's the thing though. Picking a DH over a Warrior won't speed up your 10 key. Warriors are extremely competitive if dmg is the only thing you care about. DHs are good in HIGH keys because all their utilty allows you to survive againt hard trash pulls that you would probably wipe on if you had a Warrior instead.

Same with Shadow (or any other non-meta caster). Picking a Mage or Boomkin over a Shadow won't speed up your 10, because Shadow can put out just as much, if not more dmg than those classes. Meta classes are good in high keys because their utility allows you to survive stuff that would otherwise kill you. In 10s you can survive just fine without any utility at all, so your setup is irrelevant.

There are multiple classes that have a higher dmg potential than the current meta classes, but they aren't used because they lack utility. And said utilty is irrelevant to 99% of the playerbase, because they will never push their M+ keys so high that said utility starts to matter. Most ppl are failing their keys because they fail at mechanics or don't know how to play their class properly, not because of their setup.

You're insane if you think that a Warrior can pull the same numbers as a Demon Hunter in a 10. The mobs don't stay alive long enough for Execute to do anything worthwhile, same goes for bosses. Demon Hunter has the strong sustain all around their class because they're not tuned around execute doing the majority of their dps. You also must be delusional if you believe a Shadow Priest can EVER keep up with a Mage lmao.

[Ange]

Meta comps are irrelevant on anything lower than 15-16 keys btw. Ppl who decline the "non meta" specs for 10s, probably don't understand why the meta specs are good in high keys in the first place... (hint, it's not their dmg).

I think this is just wrong.

Mythic+ is treated by some players just like PvP - the majority will play whatever class/spec is slightly OP or simply the best. This players will reroll most likely each balance patch, because of a restricted view of the game.

I know quite a few of those "skilled" players who don't even enjoy the class they play. Honestly its the saddest thing in this MMO. Playing not because its fun or enjoyable, but playing something because it is easier.

For my own sake I assess current meta specs with a rating tax to compare them with non-meta classes if I am looking for players for a key. I exclude rogues completly, since shroud is in many cases the only reason for a group invite, I can't even estimate a meta tax for this shit-role in mythic+.

One thing remains in my experience true in BfA just as it was in LEGION, the most fun AND successfull groups I ever had were with non-meta comps in mythic+.

[Malikath]

the only reason why its "needed" is because of how badly overtuned content is .

no other game is providing endgame content for nolifers like wow.

if blizzard cut out mythic raiding and higher then +5 mythic keys elitism would be instant gone . and game would be much more enjoyable for masses .

you are the perfect posterchild for LFR players, if it's hard it's over-tuned.
the fact you have to outright LIE for your second "point" is as pathetic as your first claim.
monhun world is exploding in the western market and AS A SERIES it is defined by the min/max tuned endgame challenges.

and no, elitism exists because some people are better that others.
life isn't fair, and no one said it would be.

if blizzard breaks raider IO and pugging mythic+ will die over night with it becoming a pre-made group only content.
if blizzard removes more content then the subs will fall even further and as wildstar showed there's only so much microtransations your can squeeze from players dumb enough to stick to an endgame defined by a time-gated treadmill for a faux hardcore raid experience that's less engaging then the starting zones content.

[Felfaadaern Darkterror]

M+ is the same as it's always been:

• Join guild discord
• Ask who wants to run keys
• Throw a group together and compare what keys we have
• Run a key, push it, repeat till we can't push anymore
• Thank each other for group and wish each other good luck on weekly chest

Oh wait - you're PUGing?
So you are CHOOSING to go the toxic route.
Well that's on you then.

[Progenitor Aquarius]

People become toxic mostly when the play is bad. When you get into good group they are usually nice. I found out that getting into 12-15 dungeon groups is better than going into 10s. People are more experienced there and have more patience.

[Ragedaug]

Enh shaman was really good in TBC. Depending on the patch to some degree because of WF being bugged OP for a lot of TBC.

Most good raids had a 3 hunter + feral druid (tank back then) + enh shaman. This gave totems and lust to the hunters and 5% crit buff to all in that party. Every raid needed 4 or 5 shamans just for lust.

I know my damage was good. I was typically first or second in raids, which I ran with my guild. I'm talking about pugging heroics. Also, most top guilds did not look for Enhancement Shaman. I know that because when they were trying to poach me, they all asked me if I was Resto, and when I said, "no, enhance", they would reply, "oh, nm".

[Felfaadaern Darkterror]

I know my damage was good. I was typically first or second in raids, which I ran with my guild. I'm talking about pugging heroics. Also, most top guilds did not look for Enhancement Shaman. I know that because when they were trying to poach me, they all asked me if I was Resto, and when I said, "no, enhance", they would reply, "oh, nm".

They were looking for a healer. You wanted to play DPS. Always more groups needing healers than DPS.

[DesoPL]

BfA mythics is one OMEGALUL fest. As OP said.

Not worth wasting my time on that.

[Deleted]

Had a Moonkin rage at me for pulling a mob that's not needed . Apparently pulling mobs that are straight on the way to the boss is a bad idea and im a bad player for not doing the exact same pulls as the world first 19 underrot.

Had two people leave a group because I invited a warrior dps over a DH for a Siege 10. In their eyes DPS Warriors are unviable garbage and I should always invite Havocs over them.

Never mind playing well and handling dungeon mechanics properly, M+ is all about emulating the pulls of world first players to the T and stacking FOTM specs.

The increasingly worse community is sucking the joy out of M+.

m+ is like a sport so when you are not competitive player you can't complain xD there is a TIME limit so your job is to do best you can
if you are bothered with it dont play m+ just play m0 or just heroics
OR
there si better IDEA join guild go to they discord talk to them make friends and you m+ experience change over night

[Deleted]

Eventhough I understand your complaint, I must state otherwise. At least in a nuanced way.

Yes, there is alot of toxicity. But you actually can control that yourself. 7 weeks ago (arms warrio,r fml) I was done with mythic+. But then I did a really nice +10 run. I decided that I wanted to play more often with these people. So I made a small community for that. Communities, who gives a shit right. Well, after I had more positive encounters, I started inviting more players. I currenly have 50 players in my community. I played with ALL of them personally. They're all skilled, but more importantly fun and trustworthy to play with. No toxicity because you already bonded together. Look at it as a replacement Guild. Only with exactly the same mindset in each individual. Class-elitism? Minimal. Leaving after a wipe? Minimal. Co-effort, talking in voicechat, deciding strategies, calling shots and coperation? Totally.

It not only gave me 600 extra raiderio points, (1256 or smtn now, as an arms warrior!) but it changed my view on BfA m+ by 180 degrees. I'm having tons of fun and you actually have a sense of accomplishment if you've played with friendly regular people. Try it!

[Niwes]

Lot of it is blizzard fault. They made the classes so unbalanced that it promotes FOTM specs for mythic+.

imo you are right.

but for the wrong, or better said, uncomplete reasons:

in the first place, blizz massively support toxic players by not providing a desserteur debuff, if ppl leave grps early, or when voted out by majority of grp.

what do ppl think, how long will this game stay so massivelly toxic, when blizz finally accept their responsibility for the games behaviour via meta stuff, and ... lets say (exact cd to be determined) lock out ppl from m+, after above kick ? litterally in seconds, pug m+ become fun. a LOT of ppl suprisingly learn how to slow down their emotions, when it otherwise maybe means „no other m+ for the rest of the day“.

so, thats that. secondly, assume they bring variance into the time limit, i.e. gaining a buff by killing some very hard extra elite, killing a dedicated trash pack with all mobs dying inside a 5 or 10 sec window, etc (these are just examples), to provide a buff that manipulates timeline (give back time, or make time going by slower for i.e. 1min). if they do such stuff, ppl can „correct“ that elitist mistakes, when pulling the wrong mob (as in op‘s story) etc. and there is no longer that ONE right way, to do a m+. but as usually blizz isnt creative enough for that, and typically for blizz, they bring new game systems, like m+, but are not able to further develop and evolve them.

third: here comes your bad balancing into play. besides bad balancing, the more real reason is their bad class design. in former xpacs all classes were able to spec into a grind aoe template. every classes were able, to a degree, to do the same stuff. like a talent template for ST, one for cleave and one for AoE. while the class niches were small and more a „direction“ of the class. today the class niches are super far away from each other. way to extreme. compare an arcane mage best ST specced, with lets say a ww monk, with best possible ST talent spec. there are worlds between.

so, to summarize that:

- no punishment/penalties in m+
- no variance in game design of m+
- too extreme class design, that acts contrary to m+

are the reasons why m+ sucks in pugs.

and every bit of that is blizzards fault. sad but true.

[Karry]

Not advocating for leaving necessarily but when you're focusing on pushing keys and getting as high as you can, if in the first 5 minutes of a +14 dungeon you already see that this group has nowhere near the skill, patience and knowledge necessary to complete it in time ( or attempt to complete it in time ), I dont think there's much reason to stay unless you literally, like literally, want to waste over an hour wiping for what? completing a 14 not on time ? What for ?

Hell, in my experience after getting 1.380 io and getting invited more frequently to high keys now, it's pretty much an unwritten rule that if we fail, we all leave, with no toxicity involve. Once you start doing +14 and up, people dont want to waste the precious hours they have for nothing.

[Mardux]

Yes the type of content is different, but not because you can carry people in one but not in the other. Both mythic raids and m+ are subject to boost selling which makes it obvious you can carry a person no prob. I'd even say I see many more m+ boosts being advertised nowadays, probably because you only need 4 competent people to make a boost group, while mythic raid requires more.

I dont remember saying anything about selling boosts. I also dont remember saying you cant carry someone in either setting. But ok, im not going to stop you from arguing just to argue.

[Drusin]

the fact you have to outright LIE for your second "point" is as pathetic as your first claim.
monhun world is exploding in the western market and AS A SERIES it is defined by the min/max tuned endgame challenges.

Never heard of it and to be fair he did say "nolifers" which I believe would imply playing for incredible amounts of time and not just simply being "defined by the min/max tuned endgame challenges".

[burek]

Once you start doing +14 and up, people dont want to waste the precious hours they have for nothing.

That's because the only reason someone would do a 14 is to improve their score. Compared to lower keys where people might have other reasons to be there, like gear or weekly chests. So the biggest issues arise when people have different motivations and goals.

The most toxic behavior I have encountered is random dps leaving, arguing or sabotaging your run because they don't agree with the route, strategy or some other irrelevant little detail. And I'm not talking about runs filled with wipes or ninjapulls here, I'm talking about clean runs well ahead of time and people fuck you over and leave just because they can.

[amaze123]

imo you are right.

but for the wrong, or better said, uncomplete reasons:

in the first place, blizz massively support toxic players by not providing a desserteur debuff, if ppl leave grps early, or when voted out by majority of grp.

what do ppl think, how long will this game stay so massivelly toxic, when blizz finally accept their responsibility for the games behaviour via meta stuff, and ... lets say (exact cd to be determined) lock out ppl from m+, after above kick ? litterally in seconds, pug m+ become fun. a LOT of ppl suprisingly learn how to slow down their emotions, when it otherwise maybe means „no other m+ for the rest of the day“.

so, thats that. secondly, assume they bring variance into the time limit, i.e. gaining a buff by killing some very hard extra elite, killing a dedicated trash pack with all mobs dying inside a 5 or 10 sec window, etc (these are just examples), to provide a buff that manipulates timeline (give back time, or make time going by slower for i.e. 1min). if they do such stuff, ppl can „correct“ that elitist mistakes, when pulling the wrong mob (as in op‘s story) etc. and there is no longer that ONE right way, to do a m+. but as usually blizz isnt creative enough for that, and typically for blizz, they bring new game systems, like m+, but are not able to further develop and evolve them.

third: here comes your bad balancing into play. besides bad balancing, the more real reason is their bad class design. in former xpacs all classes were able to spec into a grind aoe template. every classes were able, to a degree, to do the same stuff. like a talent template for ST, one for cleave and one for AoE. while the class niches were small and more a „direction“ of the class. today the class niches are super far away from each other. way to extreme. compare an arcane mage best ST specced, with lets say a ww monk, with best possible ST talent spec. there are worlds between.

so, to summarize that:

- no punishment/penalties in m+
- no variance in game design of m+
- too extreme class design, that acts contrary to m+

are the reasons why m+ sucks in pugs.

and every bit of that is blizzards fault. sad but true.

This is so stupid. I am in a high key with my frieds. We fuck up once and cannot finish it in time anymore as we do it like 5 times a day. We decide to do another key. We cannot because we are all have a penalty for leaving.