Macron.. Europe should build Army to protect itself from Russia, China & the USA ??

[Crispin]

The US is not withdrawing from the world.

We're *literally* doing the exact opposite.

Jesus fucking christ on the cross.

Some people base reality on "feels" rather than facts /shrug

OT: An EU army is not a bad idea at all. No it wont be forcing members to stay in the EU, nor would it go to war with the US. As Skroe pointed out earlier, streamlining military equipment in the EU would buy us alot more and better equipment for the money, heck even Denmark is building it's own ships, it's utterly retarded and all it does is give some kind of odd pride because of it.

The idea that the EU could actually provide a military that is worth a damn, must be a fucking scary thought to Russia and some extent China, the US should be appluading the idea of a much stronger ally, and not fall back on the redneck trump retard attitude that think their soldiers are in Germany "waiting for the red army"

[Astalnar]

Why is that? The plan is for each country to have their own army, only for there to also be some level of consolidation or at least uniformity in purchasing and an option for a central command structure. You are making things up.

We already have this. It's called NATO.

[Dendrek]

A partnership means they have the RIGHT do disagree. That's called respect. Do we want partners or slaves?

Look at the way Trumpkins talk about other Republicans who dare even mildly disagree with Trump on anything. Of course they want slaves. Free thinking is their bane.

[Noradin]

Some people base reality on "feels" rather than facts /shrug

OT: An EU army is not a bad idea at all. No it wont be forcing members to stay in the EU, nor would it go to war with the US. As Skroe pointed out earlier, streamlining military equipment in the EU would buy us alot more and better equipment for the money, heck even Denmark is building it's own ships, it's utterly retarded and all it does is give some kind of odd pride because of it.

The idea that the EU could actually provide a military that is worth a damn, must be a fucking scary thought to Russia and some extent China, the US should be appluading the idea of a much stronger ally, and not fall back on the redneck trump retard attitude that think their soldiers are in Germany "waiting for the red army"

The problem with this is that is it not true in the short term.
What you describe can be summarized as paying less for bureaucracy and more for workers and scientist.
How do you propose we transform clerks and secretaries into highly specialized technicians and scientists?
Do they all get to work from home so they can stay in their communities or do we compensate, say, the company providing tap water for the loss of customers? What about the bakery? The restuarant they like to visit at weekends?
If not who pays for the relocation of their workers to a new place of work?
How do we break the positive feedback loop that would result from these changes and devastate whole cities?

[Slant]

Taiwan is absolutely our business. We have sworn to defend it for 70 years. China doesn't get to decide if they are a free and independent country or not.

The India Plan is 40 years out. And They've bought a lot more US weapons recently than Russian. India intentionally diversifies (such as buying French stuff too) in order to not become too dependent on one supplier.

The most important element of our new relationship with them is our continued gifting of strategic technologies.

India is the long game. China will be prevented from a Eurasian hegemony over the next few decades from US action in the region. But beyond that, India will offset it. When it is ready. WHich will not be soon.

Taiwan is not your business. Never was. Just like Iraq wasn't your business. Remember what a fuss you made over Cuba? You were absolutely willing to blow up the entire planet just to make a point. Now think again what China would do about Taiwan, an island they absolutely consider part of China.

No, it's none of your business. It really is not. And you know this, too. Your president doesn't, but past US presidents had a strict diplomatic rulebook about Taiwan, and in the future you will continue to follow it. And your protection? Taiwan knows it'll not help. And you know it'll not help. The only thing you could accomplish is destroy Taiwan. Stick to the rules. If you don't raise a fuss about Taiwan, China won't raise a fuss about Taiwan thinking it's independent, leave it alone and do its autonomous Government thing so long as they don't tell anyone they're independent. That is, actually, the best deal you can get for Taiwan until China crumbles. Do not interfere with that balance. Your only job is to not get involved.

About India, nope... not seeing it. Not at all. India isn't some stupid third world country that you can influence and manipulate according to your wishes. What do you have to offer them? Russia is already willing to share their military with them, to indian it doesn't matter what's written on it, it's all foreign anyway. And India is close enough to see what happens to US allies.. you tend to just ignore them, plant your military helicopters on the street in their nation, start shooting up shit and then you're gone and their Premier has to explain to his population why some country can just waltz in, shoot up the place and leave and why exactly he has to fake being thankful for getting buttraped, too.

You don't get it, do you. People all over the world don't like the US very much right now. Tolerating you because you've got the literal power to squash entire nations isn't the same as "liking" you. You're losing dipomatic credit faster than the UK pound is dropping due to Brexit. Get with the program, colonisation doesn't work. India doesn't need you. You need India, however. And they know that.

Now, I hope you realise I'm not straight up dismissing what you say. You're making a lot of good points. But, as a friend, someone has to tell you the truth. I know, you're not a crazy dude thinking about colonisation, but can you honestly tell me your avergage Trumpkin doesn't think that way? Because, as much as you hate it, if you look to the left and the right, there sits a Trumpkin. Yes, that is how rotten the US is right now. Do you speak for them? When you talk about international multilateralism, cooperation, Western values... are you actually speaking for yourself or for a nation that thinks Europe is the enemy, Canada is being an arrogant upstart for daring to oppose the US, Mexico is basically just a dump that needs to be walled off? Are you?

Because India is looking at Europe, Canada, Pakistan (remember the shooting up stuff?) and now you tell me, honestly... why should India give you anything? You're more likely to damage them in some way than actually help them. With what? Pakistan? You're already allied with Pakistan. You're already on the wrong side of the fence there.

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You're ignoring the fact that the countries who elect for one EU army, would be conceding their own national army. In that they are defenceless. What is even worse, at that point they are sovereign countries only on paper.

That's not what is being suggested. Stop making up bullshit in your head and then argue against your own fantasy.

[Deleted]

I have the feeling that an EU army could be the most advanced army in the world using high tech gadgets that only the US could dream off.


Or i just thought to much of end war game.

[Slant]

Taiwan is most certainly their business. They made it their business when they propped them up and now they have a moral obligation to keep doing so. A similar moral obligation like the one they have had with any number of militants they propped in regional conflicts for their own interests and then often abandoned to a grisly fate but an obligation nonetheless.

The US don't get to "make it their business". Might makes right is over.

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I have the feeling that an EU army could be the most advanced army in the world using high tech gadgets that only the US could dream off.

Doubt that. The US and EU are on one technological level and the scientific interweave is so strong, you couldn't have one pull ahead of the other without sharing the same knowledge with them, or the basis for that knowledge anyway. The knowledge transfer across the atlantic is massive.

[Slant]

But this is not about might makes right, did you even read my post? This is about "You got me in this mess, now you got to get me out of it". The US cultivates strategic partners for small term gains and abandons them when it comes to peripheral countries. They very much do not see it as their business to protect those they convinced to assemble and place large targets over their heads for when they'd leave them alone.

Meh, what I'm saying is... the US should just not get further involved with Taiwan. The balance works. If either side moves an inch, Taiwan is toast. Why am I even talking about Taiwan? I don't give a shit about that island. I'm saying, it's a good showcase of Trump and the new America... they don't understand the precarious situation, or perhaps they don't give a toss... We'll see. Taiwan is a good canary for us.

[Astalnar]

That's not what is being suggested. Stop making up bullshit in your head and then argue against your own fantasy.

Sure thing, honey. And when Farage years ago warned that the EU is going to push for a unified single army of Europe in the future, people were mocking him too. Now that it happened everyone has a memory hole and doesn't remember anything about that. Even more, they all claim this was the plan all along. If you're incapable of connecting the dots, that's on you.

[Slant]

Sure thing, honey. And when Farage years ago warned that the EU is going to push for a unified single army of Europe in the future, people were mocking him too. Now that it happened everyone has a memory hole and doesn't remember anything about that. Even more, they all claim this was the plan all along. If you're incapable of connecting the dots, that's on you.

Ah, one of those lunatics... I should've known from the "invent fantasy, pretend the other side argues it and then wail on against own fantasy" spiel. Bye, bye. We have a thread for you clowns over there *points to Brexit thread*

You wanted out, so stay out.

[Mormolyce]

Sure thing, honey. And when Farage years ago warned that the EU is going to push for a unified single army of Europe in the future, people were mocking him too. Now that it happened everyone has a memory hole and doesn't remember anything about that. Even more, they all claim this was the plan all along. If you're incapable of connecting the dots, that's on you.

I googled it, you left out an important detail there: Farage didn't say the EU was going to push for a unified EU army, what he said is that it was already being developed in secret.

Steps towards creating a European army are being kept secret from British voters until the day after next month’s referendum.

The plans, drawn up by the EU’s foreign policy chief, foresee the development of new European military and operational structures, including a headquarters. They are supported by Germany and other countries as the first step towards an EU army.

Similar proposals were vetoed by Britain in 2011, although there are concerns that a loophole could allow nine states to group together and bypass opponents.

To prevent the policy paper leaking and derailing David Cameron’s campaign to keep Britain in the EU, the plans will not be sent to national governments until the day after Britons vote.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/n...ters-3j3kg3zwj

That's a nutty conspiracy theory and deserves mockery. And he said this secret plan would be revealed the day after the Brexit vote, so he was explicitly proven wrong on that one.

P.S. When I googled this story, one of the top hits was RT. WhAt A cOiNcIdEnCe ahahaha...

[CostinR]

Taiwan is not your business. Never was. Just like Iraq wasn't your business. Remember what a fuss you made over Cuba? You were absolutely willing to blow up the entire planet just to make a point. Now think again what China would do about Taiwan, an island they absolutely consider part of China.

No, it's none of your business. It really is not. And you know this, too. Your president doesn't, but past US presidents had a strict diplomatic rulebook about Taiwan, and in the future you will continue to follow it. And your protection? Taiwan knows it'll not help. And you know it'll not help. The only thing you could accomplish is destroy Taiwan. Stick to the rules. If you don't raise a fuss about Taiwan, China won't raise a fuss about Taiwan thinking it's independent, leave it alone and do its autonomous Government thing so long as they don't tell anyone they're independent. That is, actually, the best deal you can get for Taiwan until China crumbles. Do not interfere with that balance. Your only job is to not get involved.

Except wherein China is moving to squeeze Taiwan on all fronts. You might be willing to leave Taiwan be but the United States will not do so, nor will it pretend that China is anything but their main geopolitical rival for the position of the sole world's superpower. You want to pretend otherwise go right ahead but the world doesn't care for your wants or Europe wants.

The truth is Europe's relevance going forward is going to wane significantly as Asia takes the center stage in global affairs. The conflict between China and the US will not involve the EU in a significant fashion, it will involve Japan, Taiwan, Vietnam, India, the Koreas and Russia ( given their Asian border ).

About India, nope... not seeing it. Not at all. India isn't some stupid third world country that you can influence and manipulate according to your wishes. What do you have to offer them? Russia is already willing to share their military with them, to indian it doesn't matter what's written on it, it's all foreign anyway. And India is close enough to see what happens to US allies.. you tend to just ignore them, plant your military helicopters on the street in their nation, start shooting up shit and then you're gone and their Premier has to explain to his population why some country can just waltz in, shoot up the place and leave and why exactly he has to fake being thankful for getting buttraped, too.

What you so conveniently ignore is that India itself sees China as a rival to it's growing power. As India becomes more and more successful tensions between them will continue to grow.

[Realitytrembles]

The US don't get to "make it their business". Might makes right is over.

Utopian nonsense. Might makes right will never be over, not as long as 1 human draws breath.

[Astalnar]

Ah, one of those lunatics... I should've known from the "invent fantasy, pretend the other side argues it and then wail on against own fantasy" spiel. Bye, bye. We have a thread for you clowns over there *points to Brexit thread*

You wanted out, so stay out.

It bemuses me to no end that you people can't quite decide. One day you're telling me I'm American, then next day you tell me I'm a Briton. Can't wait to see what you've come up for tomorrow.

[Slant]

It bemuses me to no end that you people can't quite decide. One day you're telling me I'm American, then next day you tell me I'm a Briton. Can't wait to see what you've come up for tomorrow.

I know what you are, but it'll get me an infraction some insignificant tool on a forum is really not worth for.

[Independent voter]

NATO can remain, we'll just bring our military stationed in Europe back home. If there's an emergency we can send troops to Europe.

NATO is just an added layer of security.

[Slant]

https://www.businessinsider.de/trump...8-11?r=US&IR=T

Yeah, right... I don't want to be impatient, but... get that shit sorted out.

[Radical Centrist]

In a bit of a shock & President Trump has tweeted it is very rude, French President Macron has suggested Europe
should make an Army to protect it from Russia , China & the USA..

The USA .. Why does Europe need an army to protect it from one its NATO Allies ?

Pres. Trump has labelled it very insulting & suggests Europe should first pay its fair share of NATO, which the U.S. subsidizes greatly!”

Does Europe feel a bit threated by the USA now.. ??

“President Macron of France has just suggested that Europe build its own military in order to protect itself from the U.S., China and Russia,” Trump tweeted Friday night, just before disembarking from the presidential plane. “Very insulting, but perhaps Europe should first pay its fair share of NATO, which the U.S. subsidizes greatly!”

President Trump struck back at French President Emmanuel Macron on Friday after Macron called for a “true European army” to guard against the United States and other potential adversaries, inflaming tensions between the two men as they prepare to meet one-on-one this weekend.


https://www.washingtonpost.com/polit...=.f2a0a38eaab9

https://www.sbs.com.au/news/trump-in...army-proposals

In the interview with Europe 1 radio, Macron referred to Trump’s recent announcement that the United States would withdraw from the INF Treaty, a nuclear-arms-control pact that President Ronald Reagan struck with the former Soviet Union in 1987.

The “main victim” of the withdrawal, Macron argued, is “Europe and its security.”

“We will not protect the Europeans unless we decide to have a true European army,” Macron said in the interview, conducted during his tour of the main battlegrounds of World War I in northeastern France. He said Europe has to “protect ourselves with respect to China, Russia and even the United States of America.”

I agree with Macron. Not just because I am an American, who is tired of footing the bill for world peace alone. But because Macron is right in that, relying on a 3rd party for defense, is not a wise plan, given you may some day disagree.

I would love to see America retreat to it's borders, and perhaps an east and a west shipping lane, and no more. Also, it seems almost as if nobody else even has a boat that planes can ride in, so I'm feeling pretty safe over here, across all this water. At least for now.

[Teleros]

Bunch of mistranslated crap.

And you have proof of cou- oh no, wait, it's just a bare assertion. Gotcha.

[Skroe]

NATO can remain, we'll just bring our military stationed in Europe back home. If there's an emergency we can send troops to Europe.

NATO is just an added layer of security.

Wanna know how long it would take to move combat forces capable of fighting Russia to Europe from the US?

About three months. And it would do it mostly over sea, where Russian subs and aircraft would be sinking their ships How's that for response time to an "emergency".

Contrary to your completely wrong assessment here that you should feel embarassed for sharing, the US Military has been pre-positioning weapons and supplies, and expanding forces to Europe. During the Cold War, we kept 300,000 troops there for good reason. It is unlikely we'll get to those numbers. But 150,000 troops by the end of next decade could be a reality.

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https://www.businessinsider.de/trump...8-11?r=US&IR=T

Yeah, right... I don't want to be impatient, but... get that shit sorted out.

We litterally just had an election where the guy got his ass handed to him a week ago. And he has spent the past week mostly freaking out two new ways every day. Because the Democratic Majority is going to burn his life to the ground.

This is his Monday freak out.

It's going to get a lot worse before it gets better.