M+ increasingly toxic and elitest

[willemh]

You realize R.IO shows how many 0-10, +10, and +15 runs you have done in the in-game window right? Someone with 1.1k score but 200 +10 runs would probably be invited over someone with a bit higher score but only a few +10 or +15 runs.

I believe the majority only looks at the score and would take a 1400 over a 1100 any time even if that 1100 did 500 more dungeons. Experience gained from doing a dungeon multiple times is not reflected I your io score, which I believe is a flaw. Similar to how if I only need loot from underrot and run 50 underrots my experience for that dungeon is insane, yet my score would be sub 200 and I would get beaten by some dude who did a few random dungeons at +5. Anyone not taking me for their underrot run would be badly misinformed.

[ydraw]

Well not that pugging raids is in a better state... You get to 340-345 and try to pug normal Uldir... I've tried, and the performance of people is abysmal. I joined as ~350 geared healer multiple groups and none of them could kill Zul. On normal. That is tuned for "friend & family beer league". I asked a friend who recently made an alt, he told me same experience: pugs can't kill normal Zul. Had even one group that disbanded on Vectis, due to lack of dps.

Thing is, pugs don't improve.

What would be good idea? Pug people, wipe, kick the ones that suck, invite few more, try again, until you get rid of all those who suck and kill the boss.

What happens in reality? Pug people, wipe, your top dpsers write "shit group" and leave, or your tanks leave, you sit there listed for replacements, more people leave out of boredom, then you come to the point nearly everyone is different people, you're back to square one, you didn't improve the group chances the one bit, and any lesson learnt from the previous wipe went out of the window.

That's why people try to cherry pick overgeared, overexperienced players to minimize the chances of even a single wipe, because inevitably that will make people leave.

If you could give everyone a chance, then keep the ones that are worth their salt and weed out the freeloaders, that would be a different story, but usually you don't get second chances, so you're less willing to take one.

Can confirm many PUGs still can't kill Zekvoz 3 months after raid release. PUGs never really get much better since there comes a point where good players outgear heroic and stop doing it. There's literally no reason for 3 of my 4 characters to do heroic uldir now, They are all 375ilvl and have 10 stacks of array. So the good players who were carrying these PUGs keep leaving, and get replaced by players with no clue.

I joined a heroic PUG last week that couldn't kill MOTHER. I stayed for 4 wipes. Then joined another PUG which killed MOTHER and Fetid then disbanded after 1 wipe on Vectis. This raid has been out for 3 months.

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Io itself isn't toxic at all. It's actually a very useful (even if flawed) tool.

A lot of the people who use it, however, use it incorrectly and are toxic. Which reflects badly on the system as a whole.

People looking at the score isn't their fault, it's the fault of raider.io.

Raider.io could easily change the way the score is calculated that would less incentivise toxic behaviour - but they don't because they know their market, and their market wants a score that proves they are better players than other people.

[willemh]

Can confirm many PUGs still can't kill Zekvoz 3 months after raid release. PUGs never really get much better since there comes a point where good players outgear heroic and stop doing it. There's literally no reason for 3 of my 4 characters to do heroic uldir now, They are all 375ilvl and have 10 stacks of array. So the good players who were carrying these PUGs keep leaving, and get replaced by players with no clue.

I joined a heroic PUG last week that couldn't kill MOTHER. I stayed for 4 wipes. Then joined another PUG which killed MOTHER and Fetid then disbanded after 1 wipe on Vectis. This raid has been out for 3 months.

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I've pugged heroic and 2 mythic bosses on 2 chars this week with a grand total of 1 wipe. And from experience in the last weeks the only boss that is annoying with pugs is ghuun because most people don't need loot from him and tend to not even bother, outside that I had 0 issues.

[Mardux]

Can confirm many PUGs still can't kill Zekvoz 3 months after raid release. PUGs never really get much better since there comes a point where good players outgear heroic and stop doing it. There's literally no reason for 3 of my 4 characters to do heroic uldir now, They are all 375ilvl and have 10 stacks of array. So the good players who were carrying these PUGs keep leaving, and get replaced by players with no clue.

I joined a heroic PUG last week that couldn't kill MOTHER. I stayed for 4 wipes. Then joined another PUG which killed MOTHER and Fetid then disbanded after 1 wipe on Vectis. This raid has been out for 3 months.

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People looking at the score isn't their fault, it's the fault of raider.io.

Raider.io could easily change the way the score is calculated that would less incentivise toxic behaviour - but they don't because they know their market, and their market wants a score that proves they are better players than other people.

Have a score that "proves they are better players than other people" is the only reason to run keys higher than 10s currently. They gear levels don't increase after that and the time vs effort isn't equal.

As long as there are timers, there is incentive to bring the people who have a better idea of what they are doing and what the dungeon entails. That isn't toxic, that's efficient.

[ydraw]

Have a score that "proves they are better players than other people" is the only reason to run keys higher than 10s currently. They gear levels don't increase after that and the time vs effort isn't equal.

As long as there are timers, there is incentive to bring the people who have a better idea of what they are doing and what the dungeon entails. That isn't toxic, that's efficient.

What's toxic is joining and then leaving runs which won't improve your .io score, a phenomenon that didn't exist prior to raider.io. Needing a high score in all 10 dungeons incentivises people into running dungeons which they don't need loot from - only score. So when it becomes apparent that they won't be improving their score, they no longer have any reason to stay and often leave, shafting the key holder.

Raider.io could easily rectifiy the issue by changing the way the score is calculated, by simply using only your best 5 dungeon scores, instead of all 10. That would mean that people wouldn't have to run dungeons that hold no loot for them in order to increase their score.

But raider.io won't do that because they know that the people who use raider.io score as a metric for judging their personal worth really like the fact that it's much easier to have a good score if you have time to run all 10 dungeons regularly.

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I've pugged heroic and 2 mythic bosses on 2 chars this week with a grand total of 1 wipe. And from experience in the last weeks the only boss that is annoying with pugs is ghuun because most people don't need loot from him and tend to not even bother, outside that I had 0 issues.

Lucky you, you must be really skilled at being invited into good pugs.

[Deleted]

Nobody carried anyone, we're a group of people who know each other irl that's playing. The tank was 349, the dps were ranging from 340-348. We're simply just not bad. Gear only makes it easier and faster, it's not what limits you if you have at least normal mythic level gear. If you have at least 340+ and you can't do a +10 then it's either you or the people you play with, not the gear.

What's the toonname you did this on. It's easily verifiable ... raider.io and all...

[Marrilaife]

What's toxic is joining and then leaving runs which won't improve your .io score, a phenomenon that didn't exist prior to raider.io. Needing a high score in all 10 dungeons incentivises people into running dungeons which they don't need loot from - only score. So when it becomes apparent that they won't be improving their score, they no longer have any reason to stay and often leave, shafting the key holder.

Yep, I tried to join King's Rest yday for the weekly, leader had 500 score so it was pretty sure a guy who wants a weekly too. He invites some people who have score for King's Rest, but doesn't plan ahead who's gonna kite the golds on the first boss. I ask the group what they intend to do. Rogue says to the healer "just block them with ring of peace easy". We go. I kite boss around and golds still reach when boss is 30% since it's tyranical. Rogue starts calling us bad and then the warlock says "seems we aren't timing it" and leaves.

So yeah, generally what comes from it is people will be more likely to invite only fotm classes like frost mage / boomkin for King's Rest so they can just dump the golds responsibility onto them (yes, Rogue could have slowed them, the group could have killed at least 1 wave, something could be done instead of believing you're gonna zerg the boss), and people who "just want their weekly done" are often stuck in a situation where if you don't invite a "perfect group" someone is bound to leave so you aren't doing your weekly at all since your key will downgrade again.

[Deleted]

King's Rest is a pain for PuGs. I think the first boss is the hardest bit of the entire instance, so groups fall apart rather quickly there. This is a blessing (you don't have to go through half the dungeon when someone realises and leaves).. and a curse (on average 1 out of 4 of the groups get passed this boss without falling apart).

[Great Destiny Man]

King's Rest is a pain for PuGs. I think the first boss is the hardest bit of the entire instance, so groups fall apart rather quickly there. This is a blessing (you don't have to go through half the dungeon when someone realises and leaves).. and a curse (on average 1 out of 4 of the groups get passed this boss without falling apart).

KR on Tyranical just isn't friendly if you have the wrong group composition. If I join a PuG and it's melee heavy, and/or they have no ways to root the adds, and/or we have a group that lacks personal defensive I already know our chances of succeeding are dramatically reduced.

As you say though, at least it serves as an early indicator of if the group is capable of clearing the whole dungeon. Realistically if you can get through that there's nothing stopping you clearing the rest.

[ItsTiddles]

What's toxic is joining and then leaving runs which won't improve your .io score, a phenomenon that didn't exist prior to raider.io.

I don't know even know what you could compare m+ to that could have a similar occurrence.

[Karry]

That's because the only reason someone would do a 14 is to improve their score. Compared to lower keys where people might have other reasons to be there, like gear or weekly chests. So the biggest issues arise when people have different motivations and goals.

The most toxic behavior I have encountered is random dps leaving, arguing or sabotaging your run because they don't agree with the route, strategy or some other irrelevant little detail. And I'm not talking about runs filled with wipes or ninjapulls here, I'm talking about clean runs well ahead of time and people fuck you over and leave just because they can.

Yeah I guess that can happen. I grind a lot of M+ in pugs trying to improve my score and trying to add people to my friends list that I like to have a pool of players to choose from before I open up the queue. In all my time that I've PUSHED keys, I cant say Ive had people randomly leave in a clean run. What I can say, once you get to the 1.4 1.5 .1.6 level and you play with those people.

That's when you see the "fun". Ive had good groups that fell apart because a 1.6K DK Tank, had almost 0 clue and awarness on how to play M+ and how to actually pull effectively. He wiped us and then left. Hell, I ve had a full 1.5K team assembled for my +15 Atal Key which I was happy to get. But for some strange reason, the tank and 1 dps and the healer, remember all 1.5K players, were....suspiciously shit.

Pugging is really weird at any level really. What you need to do is always try to befriend good players. Have them in your list. Rather ask people and spend some time asking around than wasting time with "1.6K" tanks who got there by getting carried or something.

[ydraw]

I don't know even know what you could compare m+ to that could have a similar occurrence.

M+ is the only PvE content it's relevant too as far as I can see. And even then only because of raider.io. If you didn't need to continually boost your score to stay ahead of the curve then there'd be no need to join random keys. You could stick to doing keys which actually dropped loot you wanted, which gives you an extra reason to stay until the end, even if the run went over time.

This is basically what most people did before raider.io came around in the middle of legion. And the people who had been repeatedly running the same keys got pretty screwed when raider.io decided you needed to do *all* the dungeons to have a good score.

[crusadernero]

My biggest gripe with raider.io is that I suddenly now gotta do lower key m+ to boost my score in this program. Im ilevel 351 on my Orc warrior and I dont get invites to any m+ that drops relevant loot for me. Im being told to farm useless m+ dungeons because of a third party program.

Thats just pure bullshit.

its like telling raiders to do LFRx100 before being invited to a normal/Hc run.

BTW - I got geared by doing some m+ with people, warfront, Uldir normal clears and uldir HC(except G'huun so far)

[ItsTiddles]

M+ is the only PvE content it's relevant too as far as I can see. And even then only because of raider.io. If you didn't need to continually boost your score to stay ahead of the curve then there'd be no need to join random keys. You could stick to doing keys which actually dropped loot you wanted, which gives you an extra reason to stay until the end, even if the run went over time.

This is basically what most people did before raider.io came around in the middle of legion. And the people who had been repeatedly running the same keys got pretty screwed when raider.io decided you needed to do *all* the dungeons to have a good score.

Wowprog had m+ score from the get go, though. M+ just didn't have as much interest back then. What's happening now was still happening then, tbh. At a certain point people were looking at wowprog score for keys. Now that m+ has expanded, so has the desire for m+ score for "filtering" people. It would have happened even without raider.io, imo. If we were just stuck with how wowprog was originally, it would be worse off than raider.io. You could spend 3 hours in a 12 key and get more points than a timed 11 at the beginning.

[willemh]

My biggest gripe with raider.io is that I suddenly now gotta do lower key m+ to boost my score in this program. Im ilevel 351 on my Orc warrior and I dont get invites to any m+ that drops relevant loot for me. Im being told to farm useless m+ dungeons because of a third party program.

Thats just pure bullshit.

its like telling raiders to do LFRx100 before being invited to a normal/Hc run.

BTW - I got geared by doing some m+ with people, warfront, Uldir normal clears and uldir HC(except G'huun so far)

351 is extremely low tho, like I made a new alt 3 weeks ago and she's 380 now with 3 days played... and I've only pugged. You should be in the high 360s within a week easily.

[ydraw]

Wowprog had m+ score from the get go, though. M+ just didn't have as much interest back then. What's happening now was still happening then, tbh. At a certain point people were looking at wowprog score for keys. Now that m+ has expanded, so has the desire for m+ score for "filtering" people. It would have happened even without raider.io, imo. If we were just stuck with how wowprog was originally, it would be worse off than raider.io. You could spend 3 hours in a 12 key and get more points than a timed 11 at the beginning.

Don't get me wrong I think things like raider.io are very valuable for checking experience, I just disagree with the way that the score is calculated. If they just took your best 5 scores rather than all 10, it would eliminate the need to run every dungeon and therefore would greatly reduce the number of people running keys for score only. You'd be able to choose dungeons which actually had loot you wanted as well, while still maintaining your score, which would make people much less likely to leave runs.

[Pronbear]

Wowprog had m+ score from the get go, though. M+ just didn't have as much interest back then. What's happening now was still happening then, tbh. At a certain point people were looking at wowprog score for keys. Now that m+ has expanded, so has the desire for m+ score for "filtering" people. It would have happened even without raider.io, imo. If we were just stuck with how wowprog was originally, it would be worse off than raider.io. You could spend 3 hours in a 12 key and get more points than a timed 11 at the beginning.

This is true. For those like me who did M+ push before the MDI hype, we were all using wowprog, but that wasn't as handy as the raider.io addon is, and score was flawed by depleted keys.

[Kerathul]

What if,

Just like Openraider used to have a reputation system. You finished the dungeon with your group of random/mates? GJ! You can give a thumbs up, because you all finished the dungeon!

Look at League of Legends, they have this sort of system as well, you may think, but what if i run with guildmates we can just abuse the system. Well what if I tell you can counter act upon that by only giving my friend giving me 1 available thumb up or down per account or character.

Giving players a thumbs down is only possible when they leave the dungeon before completion.

You are still free to give someone a thumbs up or down, that is totally in your own hands. This sytem could give us something we wanted, the people who are leaving and creating a toxic environment are being discarded. JUST LIKE VANILLA WHERE WE HAD CLOSE COMMUNTIES. WE CAN NOW BLACKLIST PEOPLE ALL TOGETHER. BRINGING BACK CONSEQUENCES TO YOUR BAD BEHAVIOUR!

You want to cast your toxic behaviour upon others and treat others like pieces of shit? Back in Vanilla, yes back in Vanilla guy here, you would think twice if you were in a dungeon and spewing your toxic waste over your fellow dungeon members. Chances you would run into them are slightly big.

But with this sytem we can let other players know; hey this guy is cool! he stays in the dungeon and complete it with us, or this guy rages the first wipe and leaves.

[Whistl3r]

351 is extremely low tho, like I made a new alt 3 weeks ago and she's 380 now with 3 days played... and I've only pugged. You should be in the high 360s within a week easily.

Should be?! Maybe if you rolled FoTM and want to farm 10s. My main is arms warrior and I'm 366. RnG is deffo a factor but you cant say someone should be something based on YOUR experience, class and play style.

[Great Destiny Man]

What if,

Just like Openraider used to have a reputation system. You finished the dungeon with your group of random/mates? GJ! You can give a thumbs up, because you all finished the dungeon!

If memory serves correct Wowprogress made an attempt at a Karma system around about the same time people started abandoning it for raider.io. It got a lot of flak at the time.

Thing is though Karma systems are fine if people aren't trying to game the system, but expecting the entire playerbase to use it in the way intended is setting yourself up for disappointment

Look at League of Legends, they have this sort of system as well, you may think, but what if i run with guildmates we can just abuse the system. Well what if I tell you can counter act upon that by only giving my friend giving me 1 available thumb up or down per account or character.

That doesn't really change the ability to game the system though. If anything just makes people more tactical about how they choose to boost or screw others.

Giving players a thumbs down is only possible when they leave the dungeon before completion.

So how does only allowing someone who leaves a dungeon to be voted down somehow combat toxicity? So as long as I'm a toxic piece of shit but don't leave the group at all I escape getting down rated whereas I can piss someone off enough they leave and then also add insult to injury by down voting them as well. Brilliant...

You are still free to give someone a thumbs up or down, that is totally in your own hands. This sytem could give us something we wanted, the people who are leaving and creating a toxic environment are being discarded. JUST LIKE VANILLA WHERE WE HAD CLOSE COMMUNTIES. WE CAN NOW BLACKLIST PEOPLE ALL TOGETHER. BRINGING BACK CONSEQUENCES TO YOUR BAD BEHAVIOUR!

The point is boiling down people to simple metrics of "like/dislike" isn't a clear indicator of anything. Likes and dislikes don't give context to anything, sure it might denote they're an asshole but it might also show that they're the victim of a group/guild of players trying to be malicious.

Take for example reddit with their post scoring systems. A fair few times you know people are getting down rated because of the quality of their posts. However there are obvious points where people are collectively downrating other comments for less than legitimate reasons (big thing being the Q&A Developer threads where people are tactically down rating comments to make sure only certain questions are top).

You want to cast your toxic behaviour upon others and treat others like pieces of shit? Back in Vanilla, yes back in Vanilla guy here, you would think twice if you were in a dungeon and spewing your toxic waste over your fellow dungeon members. Chances you would run into them are slightly big.

But with this sytem we can let other players know; hey this guy is cool! he stays in the dungeon and complete it with us, or this guy rages the first wipe and leaves.

Ok, but with Vanilla we had no LFG tools, no cross realm integration (bar Battlegrounds) and end game was nowhere near as accessible at is now so it was far easier to recognise names and the personal experiences/experiences from others associated with them.

If you want that level of community cohesion you desire the closest you're going to get is playing Classic when it releases.