People get this wrong - WOTLK was the turning point which killed WoW

[Kynario]

Later WoTLK Not early WoTLK.

Still my all-time favorite expansion nevertheless. Northrend. <3

[sam86]

People say WOTLK was the best expansion because it peaked Subs number, but WOTLK was the turning point which killed the MMO and the RPG elements of WoW:

1) Introducing Dungeon Finder
2) Heirlooms
3) Catch up mechanics ( dungeons ) which nullify completely previous raids

So, WOTLK was the Worst Wow expansion, and the rest followed its line

1) agree on LFG, it killed community
2) disagree, with how many lvls in-game now, we need more heirlooms not less
3) wrong, TBC u could farm hcs and get gear better in ilvl than BT, catch up exists since TBC, the only difference is not all hcs were mechnar, some were shattered halls, and it is easier to clear BT than shattered halls

However claim that WOTLK was the turning point that killed wow is very wrong, for start during TBC half of playerbase was china, wrath had zero china (china banned wotlk) yet it had even more players, wrath was insane success in the west market, it recruited millions of new players, if china didn't ban wotlk, we would have like 16 or 18 million player

I'm surprised how ppl don't know that china banned wrath, specially since it was a common joke how china ban everything, blizz managed to release wow around 1 month pre-cata, u can check how 90% of wrath mobs (including dungeon and raid ones) look different to not show any 'skeleton' in them in chineese version

[Deleted]

But systems do. If game have systems what allows you to catch up with alts etc. It do affect you no matter if you do it or not. Same with LFG, LFR, etc.. It will allways affect you becouse thats how ecosystem in mmorpg works. You can choose to ignore conflict in Iran yet it will affect your cost of gas. So quit using this argument it is absolut nonsens. You are supostu be invested in 1 char in mmo period. More chars = less invested. Less invested = lesser retantion. Lesser retantion = people quit. It amazes me how people defend current game without any knowladge how players mind work.

But I want to play more then one character... So I do. It's not for your to dictate to me the manner of which I play. If wow forced me to play one character of quit so I disagree with your premise to begin with. Others people play doesn't bother me. It's has at most a minimal effect to me and doesn't prevent me doing what I want to do.

[MalfLFT]

I 100% agree that Wotlk doesn't get enough flag as it indeed was the turning point in wow. Vanilla/TBC Was made by the Blizzard that gave us war3, diablo2, etc and the rest was influenced by Activisions ''try to get all the players in the world to play, even those that dont like mmorpgs'' mindset.

That said, most of Wrath was still fantastic and it is still prob the second best expansion we ever had or ever will get.

[Deleted]

WotLK was the best expansion simply because once you made it to 80 you never run out of things to do, even older raids were still relevant thanks to the weekly quest

BFA have more things to do than wotlk and tbc combined so how is it that is worst exp to date?

[MalfLFT]

1) agree on LFG, it killed community
2) disagree, with how many lvls in-game now, we need more heirlooms not less
3) wrong, TBC u could farm hcs and get gear better in ilvl than BT, catch up exists since TBC, the only difference is not all hcs were mechnar, some were shattered halls, and it is easier to clear BT than shattered halls

However claim that WOTLK was the turning point that killed wow is very wrong, for start during TBC half of playerbase was china, wrath had zero china (china banned wotlk) yet it had even more players, wrath was insane success in the west market, it recruited millions of new players, if china didn't ban wotlk, we would have like 16 or 18 million player

I'm surprised how ppl don't know that china banned wrath, specially since it was a common joke how china ban everything, blizz managed to release wow around 1 month pre-cata, u can check how 90% of wrath mobs (including dungeon and raid ones) look different to not show any 'skeleton' in them in chineese version

There is absolutely no way you are correct and wow didn't see a noticeable drop in subs. You can sing wraths praises all you will but it didnt double the amount of western players at launch. You are 100% undoubtubly wrong.

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BFA have more things to do than wotlk and tbc combined so how is it that is worst exp to date?

Lol, bfa has more stuff to do you say ?

[Seranthor]

People say WOTLK was the best expansion because it peaked Subs number, but WOTLK was the turning point which killed the MMO and the RPG elements of WoW:

1) Introducing Dungeon Finder
2) Heirlooms
3) Catch up mechanics ( dungeons ) which nullify completely previous raids

So, WOTLK was the Worst Wow expansion, and the rest followed its line

Yes, yes, Wow is dying... everything dies my son, and that slow march toward the grave begins the instant after birth.

[Deleted]

You have to also understand that at the time these mechanics were almost necessary. Can't blame wotlk/tbc catch up mechanics for this, can only blame the designers that built up on them creating the arcade version of wow that we have today.

[matrix123mko]

Another WoW is dying thread, 3 on the front page. Who do you work for?

Asmongold propably.

[Corruptus]

People say WOTLK was the best expansion because it peaked Subs number, but WOTLK was the turning point which killed the MMO and the RPG elements of WoW:

1) Introducing Dungeon Finder
2) Heirlooms
3) Catch up mechanics ( dungeons ) which nullify completely previous raids

So, WOTLK was the Worst Wow expansion, and the rest followed its line

bullshit

/thread

[Deleted]

But I want to play more then one character... So I do. It's not for your to dictate to me the manner of which I play. If wow forced me to play one character of quit so I disagree with your premise to begin with. Others people play doesn't bother me. It's has at most a minimal effect to me and doesn't prevent me doing what I want to do.

Game never forced you to play 1 char. It was just you had to invest lot of time if you wanted play more chars back in good old days. Sure play more chars but dont expect to catch up with players what invest all time into 1 char. You should be milea away from those players not just be few % like it is now. And i dont dictate you anything. I only stated how mmorpgs core desing work and this desing should not be changed or alerted in anyway. Catch ups do not belong into mmo game.

[Deleted]

I'd better call Guinness: I'm pretty sure 10+ years is a record for how long it takes something to die after it's killed.

[Flurryfang]

People say WOTLK was the best expansion because it peaked Subs number, but WOTLK was the turning point which killed the MMO and the RPG elements of WoW:

1) Introducing Dungeon Finder
2) Heirlooms
3) Catch up mechanics ( dungeons ) which nullify completely previous raids

So, WOTLK was the Worst Wow expansion, and the rest followed its line

Im not saying your wrong, because each of these elements proberly caused the downfall we have experienced since the end of Cata, but the mere fact that so many people enjoyed Wrath should point out, that while these 3 elements were in Wrath, they were there in a small extent which was okay and which did not go to far.

Having dungeons be open to be matchmade did change the role of dungeons indeed, but that does not mean it was directly a bad thing. We were all suffering under the huge task of gathering a dungeon group together and Blizzard solved it. That they then started designing their dungeons after the idea of having totally lost people in dungeons and making it as fast a process as possible is another thing. Wrath implemented it, but did not go to far and in my opinion, LFD is only bad because it opened up for LFR.

Heirlooms are great and they allow you to ignore most of the gearing process while leveling. It did sadly also stop Blizzard from nerfing the leveling speed of the game since players just equipped Heirlooms to speed the game up. The idea of having gear that scales with you is not bad, but the idea of having to compensate for actual leveling speed improvements is indeed a bad element.(They have though gone back on this lately, just look at the latest EXP nerfs in 8.1)

Finally the catch up mechanics did signal the era of stand-alone tiers, which is proberly the main reason why the game is so different from back in Vanilla and TBC. This is again debateable if it is a bad thing, but i would agree that the nullification of previous raids is a very bad thing and i did like Blizzards raid structural design was better back in the day.

I think the most important thing to point out is, that while Wrath implemented these features, it did it to a small extent, to a point where they were not really disturbing the game and merely added to it. That they then doubled down on some of the feature in future expansions is another thing, but Wrath is not really to blame for that.

Besides, Wrath have Ulduar, which alone makes it a top 3 expansion atleast xD

[Rhade1337]

WOTLK had harder dungeons than any dungeons after that and more fun and intuitive

Sorry but TBC and start of Cata dungeons were harder than Wotlk ones. Ppl needed to CC at least 2 mobs to kill some packs.

P.S. The game is becoming shit because all of the snowflakes qquint about grinding in an RPG and all want insta lvl max and free loot out of their asses. gz nabs game becoming ( much of it is ) shit is because of you

[Finear]

not really
even Kripp admits that wow started to fall after wotlk

even Kripp? what's that supposed to mean?

for me peak of wow was tbc-wotlk for sure but lfd and catch up mechanics are objectively good for the game, if anything they slowed down a wow decline

[FoxyAnatoliy]

WOTLK was a pretty descent addon. Bullshit dungeons, dead open world, trash tier 1 and tier 3 raids, shitty class balance, dead professions, lack of things to do except arenas and raids, comunity-killing features such as phasing and lfr. Anyway, it was a success beaceuase of its plot and favorable game market sitation.

[MysticsDK]

People say WOTLK was the best expansion because it peaked Subs number, but WOTLK was the turning point which killed the MMO and the RPG elements of WoW:

1) Introducing Dungeon Finder
2) Heirlooms
3) Catch up mechanics ( dungeons ) which nullify completely previous raids

So, WOTLK was the Worst Wow expansion, and the rest followed its line

I'd disagree. WOTLK was awesome and successful. It was the change in staff on the back of this which started a downslide.

[Lochton]

People say WOTLK was the best expansion because it peaked Subs number, but WOTLK was the turning point which killed the MMO and the RPG elements of WoW:

1) Introducing Dungeon Finder
2) Heirlooms
3) Catch up mechanics ( dungeons ) which nullify completely previous raids

So, WOTLK was the Worst Wow expansion, and the rest followed its line

All those three was great additions.

[Maudib]

People say WOTLK was the best expansion because it peaked Subs number, but WOTLK was the turning point which killed the MMO and the RPG elements of WoW:

1) Introducing Dungeon Finder
2) Heirlooms
3) Catch up mechanics ( dungeons ) which nullify completely previous raids

So, WOTLK was the Worst Wow expansion, and the rest followed its line

I will agree that those things started in the latter 1/3 of Wrath. They were failed "experiments" that, for some reason, they decided to "double down" on.

While this marked the beginning of the change in development philosophy, WotLK was, by and large, the best expansion ever.

Heirlooms were not a bad idea... in fact, they took a lot of effort to acquire and were not account-wide. Remember that Wrath was pre-squish, so the weren't as OP then as they were in say Cata and beyond.

The latter dungeons, though, did introduce welfare epics... a huge problem.

All in all, Wrath was THE expansion that firmly planted WoW as THE mmo.

[markos82]

Sorry but TBC and start of Cata dungeons were harder than Wotlk ones. Ppl needed to CC at least 2 mobs to kill some packs.

P.S. The game is becoming shit because all of the snowflakes qquint about grinding in an RPG and all want insta lvl max and free loot out of their asses. gz nabs game becoming ( much of it is ) shit is because of you

Cata dungeons were piss easy, and TBC was, well before WOTLK. I dont think I ever died in Cata dungeon, but when ICC ones opened i remember boign a wipe west even with end game gear.

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WOTLK was a pretty descent addon. Bullshit dungeons, dead open world, trash tier 1 and tier 3 raids, shitty class balance, dead professions, lack of things to do except arenas and raids, comunity-killing features such as phasing and lfr. Anyway, it was a success beaceuase of its plot and favorable game market sitation.

Dungeons were amazing, raids were better than anything we had before and after, hell i still dream about Ulduar and ICC design and machanic. class balance was always shit, professions were great, better than anything we had, you got profession bonus, they removed 99.95% of the thing we didnt need in them, lack of thing to do? And that was alywas a thing up untill m+, well nothing to do. LFR was great thing at start, something to do if you didnt had time to play on alts an such, phasing was a good thing, now its kinda shit but in WOTLK was amazing....